Varboy

I was tought using vanishing points for predicting the severity of corners a few years back.

Though I think we all use vanishing points fairly instinctively for driving when we don't know the road, I'm not convinced that it is always practical due to line of sight.

Am I not getting it, am I missing something, does anyone know of any good guides that could give me a few more tips?

34srm

if your using the vanishing point theory why write "I'm not convinced that it is always practical due to line of sight." thats the whole idea think about it

problem with this theory is that since it started being used and is generally very good idea, the level of grip car have now especially 4wd you can easyly exceed the limits ov this theory

Varboy

I've obviously not explained sufficiently. I stated 'instinctively' meaning that as your driving experience increases, you can instinctively judge the severity of the corner.

I suppose to put it simply, when I 'try' to apply the technique, ie conciously thinking about application, I find it works well on some corners and not on others due to the rise and fall in the road, uneven banks etc and as a result I get myself in a pickle.

The post was written rather broadly to obtain people's opinions on the technique and to enquire as to whether there were any good references on the 'net.

You make a good point about the grip limits exceeding the theory, hadn't thought of that.

34srm

just need to no your own limits, perhaps few trackdays would help, getting into a pickle not such an issue

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

Can't remember what the 'vanishing point' theory is

However, I tend to use a combination of things - hedges, tree lines, telegraph poles (not always reliable becasue they can swap from one side of the road to the other) and any hint of where the road is in the distance to judge the severity of a bend. By looking for these objects, you also get an idea of whether the road is likely to rise or fall.

However, the best technique I find is to show a bit of caution - it's always better to go in a bit too slow and accellerate harder once you have passed the apex, than to decide how to get round the corner when you are not even half way through and going too fast!!

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

The correct term for vanishing point (in defensive driving language) is The Limit Point.This applies to crests as well as curves.

As DaveD said just go in a touch slower than you could. This gives you more option to position the car on the road with the throttle. Just in case a bend tights up or you hit adverse camber etc etc.

Steve

s70rjw

iTrader: (2)

Crucially it takes into account the distance that you can see to be clear. As with most defensive driving techniques, they're about driving safely within limits, not necessarily the quickest.

ru'

Also you can take into account other drivers; if you see the car (quite a way) in front go into a bend, or over a brow of a hill, and they don't brake then you 'could' assume there's 'probably' not a hazard directly after said corner/hill.

And then plough straight into the back of their car if there was and they were just rubbish!

stormsubaru

as dave and steve have said always proceed with caution take "a little off the top" so to speak because these are public roads and unlike on the track if you come in too fast and go off you line there may be a car on the other side.

also coming in slower and throttling out is still faster than breaking in the corner.

all of the things we learn are just aids, nothing that we can learn in driving is the be all and end all of techniques.

Varboy

thanks guys, I know the theory behind the vanishing point and have had plenty of years on the road driving high powered cars to know how and when to exercise caution, so whilst I am grateful of your advice on how to enter a corner with anticipation what I wanted more was people's opinion on the vanishing point and it's application in the real world, not a classroom.

monkeyboy840

I find the vanishing point very useful but it cannot be relied on on its own. it is a very good indicator as to the 'limit' of the corner but it does not allow for the bend nipping up all of a sudden etc etc

I have to use the techniques every day (guess the occupation )and I find it useful out on the open road to an extent but I will not rely on it. I tend to use all the other indicators as well.


In practice I dont feel it is as much use as it makes out. sometimes.

thats just my opinion

[MikeyB]

I've done a full days driving with an ex traffice cop John Cave. He teaches you all the theory and practical behind car control and using the Limit Point (if your advanced enough as its only a days course).

I use it every time I'm in my car apart from the trip to work as thats boring, and a book I used to back up the theorys behind it was this: Amazon.co.uk: Roadcraft: The Police Driver's Handbook: Books: Home Office

Def worth a read!

Untitled

If your coming to a left hand bend you need to move out into the other lane to improve your vision round the corner, if your coming to a right hand bend move as far in to the inside of your lane as you can and this helps your vision round the corner, your limit point will come earlier and you can power on sooner.

c_maguire

Using the vanishing point as a driving/riding aid is in my practical opinion far more relevant when riding a motorcycle than driving a car because you are not able to make sharp, unplanned changes in direction on a bike at speed. On the track it's certainly a benefit on 2 or 4 wheels but on the road I find it difficult to apply with any consistency because your road positioning and speed when approaching bends with limited visibility is generally dictated by a desire not to plough into anything coming in the opposite direction or the Grandad in the Rover just out of sight seeing if he can pull fifth gear at 25mph.
Kevin

NAY93WRX

iTrader: (3)

Im half way through my driving course with the old bill and they teach you limit points and the system....position, speed, gear for fast road driving as well as other bits and bobs.

Its great fun...apart from being in a diesel mondeo

Bodgit

I would second that. I bought the book and read it and although you occasionally think "that's obvious" sometimes things are so obvious you overlook them and it's handy to have it pointed out and why. It's one of those books you should have a flick through every now and then.

ChrisGrant

The only problem with this is the Guy overly hugging the line as he's racing the road............

Bodgit

Yes, how come they can teach the police this technique and it is classed as adavanced driving but when we use it the technique is all off a sudden dangerous. Wish the police would gegt off their high horse in the we are the best drivers. There are some civilian drivers that are just as good an if not better.
I have seen some outrite dangerous moves made by the police and we are supposed to accept this. The amount of times I have wanted to flash a copper over is amazing but we all know our cards would be marked if we complained.

ChrisGrant

Yes very true........

But What I really meant is that 90% drivers hug the corners some cross the line far too often........and if your driving the Advanced way you lose the side of you car.........not very defensive

Bodgit

Agree, but if you are truely observing the road you would not be out on the line when you see the oncoming traffic so it is still defensive. I think this is a key problem where drivers do not look far enough up the road. It all comes down to driving safely to the conditions. Some just dont seem to have the ability to blend driving techniques together.

stug

just a note to say that yes the police do go into a corner slower and throttle out, and yes they do use the movement of the limit point to tell you when it is safe to use more throttle in the corner. however they also tell you that it is not the quickest way to corner a car but is the safest quick way to corner a car. i suppose a race driver would show you the quickest way! point being though a race driver has a slide and does some gardening with the car whereas joe public might just wipe out that family of four returning from holiday.

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

I think the point of using this technique is that you don't fully commit to the corner until you can see that the exit is clear. There's no point barrelling in at 10/10ths if you find that just after the apex there's a pushbike or a horse on your side of the road!

Move to the left or right side of the road to improve the view, but if you can't see through the corner, leave a little room for manoeuvre (speed / line). If you do find a car cutting across your side of the road, or some other obstruction, you at least have a chance to move round it....once you can see the coast is clear then apply the throttle!!

stug

you are certainly right about the safety aspect dave. you can only apply more throttle as the limit point moves away if the carriageway is clear. considering the emergency services are still liable when they have the blue lights on, i think the police may take a dim view of the explanation that you were just chasing the limit point when the accident occurred.

Surferboy

Firstly Police/Advanced driving techniques are all about driving as fast as is safely possible and so to seperate one technique out from the course is slightly unfair. It is no point driving around a corner using the limit point technique if you slide off due to the amount of mud on the road/ adverse camber etc! The most important point about all of the 'vision' aspects of the training is that you should never drive faster around/ over an obstruction in your vision than would give you time to react and stop before an object in the road. As an examply if you are travelling down road 'a' towards a corner around which you have no view you should reduce your speed until the amount of road in your view remains the same and therefore your time to react is also unchanging - the minimum amount of road you should be able to see at any one time is the amount of road you would need to stop in the event of seeing an obstruction in the road. (It's why big brakes are better than a big engine!). The vanishing point also tells you if a corner is easing or tightening and you can therefore match speed to your required length of reaction/ braking time. Car positioning helps this and as previously stated is generally the opposite of the racing line - it is vision that allows speed not straight lines. So you would generally position right on a right hander and vice versa. Obviously if you cannot see around a left hander you should always be back in the nearside lane markings before you round the corner, and should never pass an offside road junction whilst in the offside lane.

The Police/ Advanced driving techniques are excellent to have on board but work best when on A or B roads outside of towns/ villages and with little roadside hazards. As you drive faster you need to look further ahead to enable your reactions time to increase and there are just too many hazards in most urban environments to do this safely. Try doing a running commentary to yourself on what you can see - in front and behind. This has the effect of telling you what you are looking at and how far 'forwards' your vision is.

Please note that I did a 5 week course to gain a 'medium' award in Police roadcraft and the amount of concentration required to drive as you should is exhausting (no conversations, no CD's, phones, satnav, maps allowed) At the start of the course I could only last about 15-20 minutes 'at speed' before starting to make mistakes and this would leave me knackered. By the end of the course I could last for about 1 hour. I have NEVER been able to match that level of concentration since. If you get the chance then do one it was the best course I have ever done and I know I am a faster but safer driver as a result.

Bodgit

I noticed this when I used to drive a lot in Germany. It's ok doing the high speeds but you dont get there that much quicker due to rest stops I took when i needed a break from the intensity in concentration.
The last things you are thinking about are smoking, music or phonecalls. Driving in Germany is good for observation skills as you have to observe every single move 100% and anticipate manouvers rather than reacting to others once they start indicating.

Surferboy

Lack of forward vision is why the most common word on accident reports is 'suddenly'. Things very rarely happen that suddenly it is just that people only spot things about to happen in the 2 seconds before it does and then they have no time to respond. Scoobs are such capable cars it is easy to get suckered into driving quicker than the road conditions will allow particularly on your favourite stretch of road which you may have driven for years. By using the limit point of your vision you are much less likely to sail around that bend you've driven a 1000 times straight into the back of a broken down car!

davey21wagon

i only drive hard on roads i know that way u know the corners crests etc... that way ur taking a hell off a lot of danger out of driving fast, and always consider the time ur going down the road at to.... less cars or there might be a tractor etc over a crest i always focus on being smooth down back roads accelerating outta corners etc

b34ver

After having a bike accident when a corner tightened up because i was not in the right position on the road to see it early enough or react once i saw it i changed the way i rode.

The limits of the car are rarely the determining factor out on the open roads. Regardless whether the car is four wheel drive it won't stop quicker when something is stopped around the corner. You have to drive with regard to any dangers around, for example if you see mud on the road or a sign for a car boot sale you need to slow down. If your driving around a corner that you cannot see the exit of clearly at the limit of your car then your going too fast! If your already at the limit of the car while it's settled under power then you come up on a cyclist or anything that would cause you to brake then you will loose it. Chances are your probably no where near the limit of the car, but maybe going too fast for the conditions.

Like it was pointed out earlier on the post it's better to drive on the road with some in reserve. For virtually everyone on here that will be some driving skill in reserve not some reserve of your car! Put any world rally driver in a standard wrx and they would be quicker than most in a tuned and sorted STI.

There is no hard and fast rules to driving fast on the road because all situations are constantly variable due to road conditions, weather conditions, other stupid drivers, animals ect.....

Personally whether on a bike or in the car i concentrate fully, use a combination of vanishing point and other road markers (hedges etc), try to be smooth, and most importantly feel as one with the vehicle. If i am not feeling "in the zone" (either below the zone or somewhat above it) i slow down because it's not worth the risk.

Jesus i only meant to put a quick post up! That got quite involving lol

b34ver

Well said.

Road positioning is even more relevant on a bike cause you've got more scope to move within your lane.

martyrobertsdj

iTrader: (1)

Pah...beat me to it!!

I was gonna say almost the same thing.....that the "Vanishing/Limit Point" is far more useful on a bike as you have more scope to move within your lane and can get greater benefit from the vanishing point than you can in a car (excluding going onto the other side of the road for left handers)