Most Powerful Scoobys in UK ?
27 April 2002, 12:54 AM
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Further to some recent unconfirmed claims on I-club and 22B forums, I was wondering how much power the top Scoobys in the UK are producing ?
I have found my car reponded well to some simple and cost effective modifications, I do however find it hard to believe that is is even considered as one of the more powerful cars around.
Are the top cars self builds or tuning company products ?
On the American i-club BBS, the UK's tuning abilities are being judged by the dyno results posted on this website.
I can only assume that there are many people keeping a low profile out there, staying away from dyno's and 1/4 miles ?
So what's the deal ? Anyone with power figures or performance data that can show the Americans what we're worth in the UK?
A quick spec would be nice too
Andy
27 April 2002, 12:56 AM
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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my last rolling road session showed 213bhp pretty good eh 
mods... 4 pot calipers (worth 100bhp)
Braided brake lines
2000 spec wheels, interior
HKS Racing suction kit
HKS Hiper exhaust..
David
mods... 4 pot calipers (worth 100bhp)
Braided brake lines
2000 spec wheels, interior
HKS Racing suction kit
HKS Hiper exhaust..
David
27 April 2002, 03:02 AM
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CC,
Are you refering to this thread ?
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177000&perpage=25&pagen umber=2
And the following comment from Pete Croney,
Quote:
"Although we design for outright driveability, we are also on the 4 most powerful Imprezas in the UK, the quickest US 1/4 mile WRX and Bob Rawle's car (UK mapper extraordinaire), so the results will be interesting.
I had a look on UK dyno site (a bit out of date, I know) to see if there was anything meaningful, but it seems no one uses BPM here"
END QUOTE:
It would be a good start if Pete could start off by listing the the "4 most powerful Imprezas in the UK".
Obviously this would exclude both you, and Craig Hardman, since I don't believe either of you use Scoobysport products.
Mark.
[Edited by R19KET - 4/27/2002 3:04:16 AM]
Are you refering to this thread ?
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177000&perpage=25&pagen umber=2
And the following comment from Pete Croney,
Quote:
"Although we design for outright driveability, we are also on the 4 most powerful Imprezas in the UK, the quickest US 1/4 mile WRX and Bob Rawle's car (UK mapper extraordinaire), so the results will be interesting.
I had a look on UK dyno site (a bit out of date, I know) to see if there was anything meaningful, but it seems no one uses BPM here"
END QUOTE:
It would be a good start if Pete could start off by listing the the "4 most powerful Imprezas in the UK".
Obviously this would exclude both you, and Craig Hardman, since I don't believe either of you use Scoobysport products.
Mark.
[Edited by R19KET - 4/27/2002 3:04:16 AM]
27 April 2002, 09:27 AM
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Andy could you please mail me a list of the mods you have done and photos of your manifold / fuel rail mods. I have a WRX of a similar age, although not a RA and I am very impressed with your 1/4 mile times, approx 1.5 seconds quicker than my best time. I am also on a very tight budget and need to find away to beat my mates modded GTIR down the 1/4 mile.
Cheers Colin.
Cheers Colin.
27 April 2002, 10:53 AM
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Mark....Yes thats the thread. It would seem that someone has laid claim to the top 4 at least
I just wondered who they are and what their engine spec is.
I thought it a bit odd that all the top cars in the UK use the same parts
Colin....I hope to post pics next week, I should also have a dyno graph to go with the spec. Currently, my lightweight car and low gearing perhaps flatter the engine According to some USA tuners estimates, I must have around 450bhp to run these times 
On the dyno I'll settle for anything over the 300 mark
(as long as it's at the wheels ...joke ! )
I just wondered who they are and what their engine spec is.
I thought it a bit odd that all the top cars in the UK use the same parts
Colin....I hope to post pics next week, I should also have a dyno graph to go with the spec. Currently, my lightweight car and low gearing perhaps flatter the engine
According to some USA tuners estimates, I must have around 450bhp to run these times On the dyno I'll settle for anything over the 300 mark
(as long as it's at the wheels
...joke ! )
27 April 2002, 10:57 AM
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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btt, and hurry up with these pics... at this rate ill have to walk to scotland and have a look!
David
David
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27 April 2002, 03:32 PM
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IMHO if it isnt a bench dyno result you cant compare them esp from overseas . We all know how the same cars vary from RR to RR and not by 1 or 2 bhp either.
. We all know how the same cars vary from RR to RR and not by 1 or 2 bhp either.
27 April 2002, 04:51 PM
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Well guys, I'm GUTTED........
Went to the PE RR day, and just got back. One of the cars just got 358bhp, AND, it WAS running A Scoobysport downpipe. Guys not on the bbs though.
The guy turned round, and just looked at me with a grin on his face, then asked if I could get anymore out of it, when we fit the water injection, and tweek the map
Some people are never satisfied
Point: Not knocking the product, just certain claims.
Mark.
Went to the PE RR day, and just got back. One of the cars just got 358bhp, AND, it WAS running A Scoobysport downpipe. Guys not on the bbs though.
The guy turned round, and just looked at me with a grin on his face, then asked if I could get anymore out of it, when we fit the water injection, and tweek the map
Some people are never satisfied
Point: Not knocking the product, just certain claims.
Mark.
27 April 2002, 05:21 PM
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I have a uk99 spec with a few mods and got 317bhp / 279 lbs the last time I rolling road it at john nobles but im not sure how this compares with other rollers.I had a big smile to.
28 April 2002, 09:56 AM
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Mark(R19cket),what ECU was this chap running also any details you can give on other mods ie turbo/fmic would be very much appreciated.Also you mention in yout text that you will be tweaking his map,do you tune cars commercially? I seemed to have missed this development.
28 April 2002, 10:52 AM
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Deep,
Sorry, no, I DON'T tune commercially, Alan is a friend.
He does have a Link, 550cc injectors, FMIC, hybrid turbo, and headers, etc'.
Speak to Bob Rawle. He's very good, and also in a position to warrant his work. What people need to remember, is that Bob can only get the best out of what a customer gives him to tune.
Even with HIS very sensitive backside
Mark.
Sorry, no, I DON'T tune commercially, Alan is a friend.
He does have a Link, 550cc injectors, FMIC, hybrid turbo, and headers, etc'.
Speak to Bob Rawle. He's very good, and also in a position to warrant his work. What people need to remember, is that Bob can only get the best out of what a customer gives him to tune.
Even with HIS very sensitive backside
Mark.
28 April 2002, 08:07 PM
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Hi Mark,yes I understand.Met up with Steve Lawson today who explained things.Bobs already mapped my present car I was just wondering if I had missed you venturing out commercially.Do you mind me asking what do you feel is the max BHP from a STi7 running decatted exhaust/fmic/STANDARD turbo/fully mappable ECU of some description ie Link,MoTec,GEMS etc.Many thanks,Deep.
28 April 2002, 09:50 PM
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Deep,
I've not had a chance to play with a 7 yet, but they look as if they will be very good. I'd only be guessing if I quoted figures, but the new turbo (VF30 or 34 ?) is very good, has a lot of potential.
Mark.
I've not had a chance to play with a 7 yet, but they look as if they will be very good. I'd only be guessing if I quoted figures, but the new turbo (VF30 or 34 ?) is very good, has a lot of potential.
Mark.
28 April 2002, 10:10 PM
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Well pleased with my results today at 'Star' Just wish I had got a print of my 1st run that was my best one as the water was heating up in the temporary cooling container I had in the back seat
Once I get the charge cooler radiator fitted, I'll be back !!!
After I turned the boost back by 4psi to stop the clutch slip my
actual figures were -
Run 1 - Power 349 @ 5750rpm PAW 263 TQ 343
Run 2 - Power 332 @ 5600rpm PAW 258 TQ 342
The bit that gives the car the 'kick' on the road is the graph shows over 330 lb torque from 3700 through to 5400 rpm
Not sure how Star rollers compare to PE ? but I believe they are comparable to Powertation.
It's not the fastest scoob in the UK but if there is a category for non STi with Std ECU, Std Turbo and Std injectors, I must be getting close
that was my best one as the water was heating up in the temporary cooling container I had in the back seat Once I get the charge cooler radiator fitted, I'll be back !!!
After I turned the boost back by 4psi to stop the clutch slip my
actual figures were -
Run 1 - Power 349 @ 5750rpm PAW 263 TQ 343
Run 2 - Power 332 @ 5600rpm PAW 258 TQ 342
The bit that gives the car the 'kick' on the road is the graph shows over 330 lb torque from 3700 through to 5400 rpm
Not sure how Star rollers compare to PE ? but I believe they are comparable to Powertation.
It's not the fastest scoob in the UK but if there is a category for non STi with Std ECU, Std Turbo and Std injectors, I must be getting close
28 April 2002, 11:07 PM
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Yes, WRX RA all 1190 kilo's of it
I was running 1.6 bar (23psi) peak, tailing to 1.25 bar (18psi) by 6000rpm as the turbo 'ran out of puff' !
Peak power occurred at 1.35 bar (19.5psi)
I was running 1.6 bar (23psi) peak, tailing to 1.25 bar (18psi) by 6000rpm as the turbo 'ran out of puff' !
Peak power occurred at 1.35 bar (19.5psi)
28 April 2002, 11:17 PM
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mine peaks at 1.4 and holds 1.1 to the redline (7000rpm on mine) so i must have a fair bit of power eh....cant imagine its even close to 300bhp though, so have to say yours is very impressive mate.
p.s - fitting that tdo5 soon, and apexi afc....so will finally rolling road it then.
anyone know where the closest 4x4 rolling road is to north wales, dont seem to be able to find one without travelling half the country
p.s - fitting that tdo5 soon, and apexi afc....so will finally rolling road it then.
anyone know where the closest 4x4 rolling road is to north wales, dont seem to be able to find one without travelling half the country
29 April 2002, 02:20 PM
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Cossie Convert
Apologies for not reading all the thread, but are you running 1.6 bar, tailing off on std internals?
The PAW figures look very high, in relation to the posted BHP figures - is this a function of the gearing??
I got 235PAW on 330BHP At PS recently, but on just over 1.3 bar of boost. (think the ignition advance was about 27 degrees at the top level - and thats before WI!)
Would be interested to know what the supposed limits of these cars are before going bang on standard internals
However, its only a relative measure anyway - I've driven/been in several cars with supposed power over 320bhp and have only been impressed with BRawles and David Taylors..
Apologies for not reading all the thread, but are you running 1.6 bar, tailing off on std internals?
The PAW figures look very high, in relation to the posted BHP figures - is this a function of the gearing??
I got 235PAW on 330BHP At PS recently, but on just over 1.3 bar of boost. (think the ignition advance was about 27 degrees at the top level - and thats before WI!)
Would be interested to know what the supposed limits of these cars are before going bang on standard internals
However, its only a relative measure anyway - I've driven/been in several cars with supposed power over 320bhp and have only been impressed with BRawles and David Taylors..
29 April 2002, 03:49 PM
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Steve
Yes I retain standard internals. IMHO you need rods for high revs and pistons/valves for high temps. Not an issue.....Yet !
There is a low transmission loss for 2 reasons
1 - Short gearing (also applies to STi ) and.....
2 - My max power is developed at a lower rpm than an STi (5600) therefore the rollers and transmission are not spinning so fast.
If you check a typical graph (One of yours actually ) the transmission losses at 7200 rpm are 90 bhp however at 5600 they are only 65 bhp.
Like you, I'm not easily impressed by numbers, especially if when driven there is any response lag or lack of midrange torque.
My car retains a TMIC (or should that be TMCC) and standard turbo therefore lag is not an issue. With over 330 lb-ft from 3,700rpm there is no shortage of midrange torque....ooops there I go quoting numbers again
I had a number of drivers from 300+ bhp EVO's/Scoobs out for a run in it.
'Slow' wasn't a common description of progress
Andy
Yes I retain standard internals. IMHO you need rods for high revs and pistons/valves for high temps. Not an issue.....Yet !
There is a low transmission loss for 2 reasons
1 - Short gearing (also applies to STi
) and..... 2 - My max power is developed at a lower rpm than an STi (5600) therefore the rollers and transmission are not spinning so fast.
If you check a typical graph (One of yours actually
) the transmission losses at 7200 rpm are 90 bhp however at 5600 they are only 65 bhp.Like you, I'm not easily impressed by numbers, especially if when driven there is any response lag or lack of midrange torque.
My car retains a TMIC (or should that be TMCC) and standard turbo therefore lag is not an issue. With over 330 lb-ft from 3,700rpm there is no shortage of midrange torque....ooops there I go quoting numbers again
I had a number of drivers from 300+ bhp EVO's/Scoobs out for a run in it.
'Slow' wasn't a common description of progress
Andy
29 April 2002, 04:44 PM
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Cossie Convert
Whats the full spec of your car
Just wanted a bit more info on how you were fully powered at 5600!
and were getting very good figures from a top mount and a std turbo
I saw power in my car increase substantially on fitting the bigger turbo and the fmic, albeit there is the corresponding increase in lag with the MD195, but then I had a huge Garrett Turbo on my Escort Cossie, which was even more laggy than the MD195.........
Cant wait for the addition of WI - all ready just waiting for BR to fit... then we'll see what the limits of these cars are!
(cant see what else I can do, cant change compression as this changes the ignition advance I can run). Cams dont seem to do anything (or so I'm told from a number of sources), next stage may well be internal, but then others are now going ahead with the 2.6 litre conversions - or seem to have been trying for some time!
(Edited by webmaster with apologies to Steve, to remove name on request of the person mentioned)
[Edited by webmaster - 4/30/2002 12:03:36 PM]
[Edited by steve McCulloch - 4/30/2002 3:04:33 PM]
Whats the full spec of your car
Just wanted a bit more info on how you were fully powered at 5600!
and were getting very good figures from a top mount and a std turbo
I saw power in my car increase substantially on fitting the bigger turbo and the fmic, albeit there is the corresponding increase in lag with the MD195, but then I had a huge Garrett Turbo on my Escort Cossie, which was even more laggy than the MD195.........
Cant wait for the addition of WI - all ready just waiting for BR to fit... then we'll see what the limits of these cars are!
(cant see what else I can do, cant change compression as this changes the ignition advance I can run). Cams dont seem to do anything (or so I'm told from a number of sources), next stage may well be internal, but then others are now going ahead with the 2.6 litre conversions - or seem to have been trying for some time!
(Edited by webmaster with apologies to Steve, to remove name on request of the person mentioned)
[Edited by webmaster - 4/30/2002 12:03:36 PM]
[Edited by steve McCulloch - 4/30/2002 3:04:33 PM]
29 April 2002, 04:52 PM
#26
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Steve,
Stop your whinging, and just go internal
Your main limitation is how much boost you can run.
There's also nothing stopping you either stroking the 2lt, or going a step, or two further...
Mark.
Stop your whinging, and just go internal
Your main limitation is how much boost you can run.
There's also nothing stopping you either stroking the 2lt, or going a step, or two further...
Mark.
29 April 2002, 05:25 PM
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Mark
We'll see......... will probably not bee with my car - am looking at a second car to play with (thats not too expenive, and has already had a numnber of mods - but too many lemons out there)
Not whinging.....
Is your car now sorted
We'll see......... will probably not bee with my car - am looking at a second car to play with (thats not too expenive, and has already had a numnber of mods - but too many lemons out there)
Not whinging.....
Is your car now sorted
29 April 2002, 10:40 PM
#28
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Steve
My top mount has been modified and has a water jacket around it.
The standard TD05 is apparently good for 350bhp. Other than this I have a full 3" system, Falkland twin dump, K&N cone and modified intake, Twin feed fuel rails, Water injection, Fuel press regulator, FCD, MBC valve.
The injectors, ECU, ex manifolds and turbo are all standard.
The power peaks at 5600 as the turbo start to choke, presumably at the tight 90 degree inlet bend. My power 'curve' flat lines from 5100 to 6100
I'm also starting to lean out after 5k rpm so turbo inlet mods and more fuel pressure are next on the list.
Target 360 bhp and 350 lb-ft on std ECU, injectors and turbo
My top mount has been modified and has a water jacket around it.
The standard TD05 is apparently good for 350bhp. Other than this I have a full 3" system, Falkland twin dump, K&N cone and modified intake, Twin feed fuel rails, Water injection, Fuel press regulator, FCD, MBC valve.
The injectors, ECU, ex manifolds and turbo are all standard.
The power peaks at 5600 as the turbo start to choke, presumably at the tight 90 degree inlet bend. My power 'curve' flat lines from 5100 to 6100
I'm also starting to lean out after 5k rpm so turbo inlet mods and more fuel pressure are next on the list.
Target 360 bhp and 350 lb-ft on std ECU, injectors and turbo
30 April 2002, 10:03 AM
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Cossie Convert
If the ECU is std how do you get so much power, to get those figures you normally have to up the advance quite a bit.... which the std ECU cant do...
I dont think I'll get 350lbs torque - but then it depends whose rollers it goes on - I dare say in current form I'd now get those figures at Well Lane.......
Anyway enough idle banter and back to the grindstone...
After having had conversations yesterday, I think the only wy for me to go is the 2.6 litre route and keep the current engine as a spare.
I can stroke the engine, but I dont think I'll get more than an extra 50bhp/torque out of the engine as theres always a limit on the advance you can run, and the maxx feasible boost would be 1.8 bar, which would probably see me up in the late 300's only...
I have to ask if its worth it, if I can put in a 2.6 litre for around £5k more.... - just waiting to see if anyone has had any success over here first.... people are trying - but I've not seen any on the road yet....
If the ECU is std how do you get so much power, to get those figures you normally have to up the advance quite a bit.... which the std ECU cant do...
I dont think I'll get 350lbs torque - but then it depends whose rollers it goes on - I dare say in current form I'd now get those figures at Well Lane.......
Anyway enough idle banter and back to the grindstone...
After having had conversations yesterday, I think the only wy for me to go is the 2.6 litre route and keep the current engine as a spare.
I can stroke the engine, but I dont think I'll get more than an extra 50bhp/torque out of the engine as theres always a limit on the advance you can run, and the maxx feasible boost would be 1.8 bar, which would probably see me up in the late 300's only...
I have to ask if its worth it, if I can put in a 2.6 litre for around £5k more.... - just waiting to see if anyone has had any success over here first.... people are trying - but I've not seen any on the road yet....