PING

I have a standard MY00 and want it to go a little faster. Can't afford the PPP, so wondered about a Superchip ... On paper good torque and BHP gains lower down where I want it. I'm new at all this and not technically minded! Looking through the threads, no one has mentioned Superchips, is this because it's a bad idea and if so why? I'm not too keen on changing the exhaust as it will obviously become louder (what a woose!) ... family guy, etc... just want a bit more fun out of the car.

Any ideas/comments?

Dizzy

Superchips are very bad (apparantly.. dont have one so can't fairly comment). "Cheep" performance increases...
ITG filter.
Decat exhaust (I run SS BB and DP).
Dawes Device (see other threads).

I'm sure there are others but thats what I'm looking at atm.

PING

Dizzy,

Cheers.

Dawes ...? I've read about the Dawes a little on other threads - any info on them and what you have to do with them/ cost?

ITG filter ... Air filter? Does this need any other mods to make it work?

Scaramanga

PING,

I'd echo that sentiment, I was thinking about upgrades and looked at the superchips route. General consensus seems to be that it is a crude boost clamp which will do your engine no good in the long run, I believe that it bypasses the part of your engine which warns about overboost and cuts fuel to stop you blowing things up.

No horror stories came out, but I didn't feel comfortable with the comments I got. I've decided to go the decat route, possibly changing the ECU given enough cash......

Full decat should give about 240bhp plus ECU should take it to 270bhp

PING

PS,

Do you know why Superchips are apparently a bad idea?

PING

Scaramanga,

Thanks ...
growing concensus suggests short term gain
for long term (wallet) pain ...

hey, I'm a poet!

I guess the Exhaust is a good safe route ... Any ideas on volume supression (apart form ear defenders for the neighbours!)? I guess the decat leads to MOT pronblems?

ozzy

Ping,

If you remove all the cats, then you'll defo fail an MOT. Some have said that with just the centre, it'll pass but make sure the cars well warmed-up first.

There's other ECU's (Motec, Link, etc..) but they look more expensive than a PPP considering you get new BB, Centre with the Prodrive kit.

Stefan

Scaramanga

MOT failure depends upon how far you go, if you leave at least one cat in somewhere and give your car a good thrash before the emissions test then you might be ok, alternatively you will have to do a bit of pipe swapping once a year.

As for volume, depends on which route you go, HKS - VERY loud, SS -quite loud, Prodrive - not too much louder than standard

Personally I went with Prodrive and know I made the right choice, I think that if I had gone further I would have felt a bit too conspicuous, also wife and baby approve!

In case DIZZY doesn't get back, I think that Dawes cost about 35 quid, but they look like they involve a bit of fiddling. John Banks appears to be yer man when it comes to Dawes questions. The big no-no appears to be putting it on upside down giving monster uncontrolled boost, which may be fun in the short (i.e. 30mins) term but could be a problem if you like your turbo.

PING

Ozzy

Link, Motec, etc. are all £1-2k , so am I to assume that there's no low cost way of getting good , safe performance upgrades?

PING

Scaramanga,

So would just changing the BB make much difference apart from the volume ... I don't think you can get a Prodrive Exhaust system unless you have the whole PPP ...

ScoobyJawa

Superchips is basically a fuel cut defender/raiser and a boost clamp. Very dubious as the standard fuel cut is gone and thats not a good idea.

Dawes is great if you want to keep your standard exhaust - should give about 250bhp and 230-240 torque. Its about 30-40 quid depending where you get it from and you can fit it in less than 15 minutes. You need a boost gauge and AFR reader too for this.

You then go out, boot it in 4th and see what boost you're holding. Stop adjust the dawes and repeat until you have about 16PSi on a MY99+ car.......

My car with an ITG, full decat and dawes was 266bhp and 257lb/ft torque - Scott W, with similar mods got 268bhp and 251lb/ft. This was before we'd done much playing and mine was set at just above 15 PSi, so I've increased it a little more and should now be good for over 270bhp and 260 torque

Nice

Scaramanga

I have to say that since upgrading the BB, the car seems to be more drivable (picks up quicker with less hesitation), smoother, nicer tone, not too much noise (I didn't tell the wife and she didn't notice immediately)

Dawes defo looks like a good cheap option though and a new panel filter seems to be a good idea too. Changing DP with the BB would be good and providing your car has a cat in the centre section, you should be OK MOTwise. All up this would give comparable performance to a PPP.

To throw a spanner in the works, Power Engineering do a Phase 1 upgrade for about 700 which looks pretty good www.powerengineering.co.uk I know that there have been some cars blowing up with this, but they seem to be a much much much better bet than Superchips. See the dyno pages and look at the figures for cars with PE phase 1.

Hope that this helps some.
Cheers

ozzy

Ping,

re. Motec, Link - exactly. Can there be that much of a gain using one of these over a PPP @ £1600 quid ??

There is some benefit to just changing the BB. The good ones are less restrictive, so it helps the engine get rid of those exhaust gases. As Scaramanga mentioned, the car seems to pickup better and the improvement in sound is worth the expense alone

The PPP is just some piping, centre, BB and ECU. Appart from the ECU, you could easily get the same at a fraction of the cost. It's just unfortunate that the ECU is v.hard to come by 2nd-hand, otherwise you'd get a cracking low-cost upgrade.

Basic mods would be changing the panel air-filter and BB; and both of these are very safe. You could then either replace the DP or the centre section (or both) for catless jobs.

These are both very safe, although some don't like the extra noise. I'd only be worried if I started fitting Dawes, Bleed Valves, Boost controllers, Dump Valves or an induction kit. Some are worse than others, but I don't like hearing stories of blown MAF's due to poor induction kits. I certainly don't fancy a £300 bill for a new MAF.

If you de-cat then you'll get a big improvement, but you'll need to put back the original centre or DP to pass the MOT once-a-year. Maybe it's a small price to pay. Find out how much a local garage would charge to replace them for you if you're not confident yourself.

Maybe it would be an idea to get a FAQ setup listing all the mods with the pros and cons of each ?

Stefan


[Edited by ozzy - 3/8/2002 2:47:47 PM]

ozzy

Ping,

Forgot to mention that I'm about to buy a STI BB from a P1. It's never been used and at £75 is a bargain.

Hopefully, it'll get sorted next week and I can let you know how much of a difference it'll make. I'll get the panel-filter changed at the same time.

Could be the best £100 I've spent in a long time

Stefan

ScoobyJawa

ITG filter from Scoobysport 40 quid.

BB you can fit yourself, its and absolute doddle

Dawes, theres nothing wrong with it as long as you aren't greedy. Boost picks up quicker and holds longer. Up to the fuel cut on UK cars the fueling appears fine. Mine was on the select monitor after fitting and not a trace of Knock/detonation whatsoever and running very rich at 10% so no probs at all. I think a lot of issues with the Dawes are because people don't really know much about it - its not just a simple bleed valve, it works far better/clever than a bleed valve.........

PING

Scoobyjawa,

Thanks ... forgive my ignorance, but what is an AFR reader? and how much would one cost with a boost metre?

Ta!

ScoobyJawa

Air Flow Ratio sensor. You can get them from the same place that sells the dawes. Checks you are not running too lean. Boost gauge and pod depends on what you go for, from 50 quid to 200+

PING

ScoobyJawa

Thank you.

PING

Ozzy,

Good luck with the STI BB ... Like to hear your outcome, good I suspect.

PING

Scaramanga,

Thank you for the tips ... I'll let you know how I get on!

ozzy

Beaten to it - AFR = Air/Fuel Ratio Also referred to as AFM Air/Fuel Meter.

You can find some FAQ's for the Dawes here http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...D=75220&Page=2 The "Dawes Malarchy" thread is a good read.

John Banks is the Dawes man and it seems to be a "safe" option if you calm-yer-jets with the boost levels

You'll defo need some gauges to see any results and problems with the mods.

Stefan


[Edited by ozzy - 3/8/2002 6:41:35 PM]

PING

Hi Ozzy,

Thank you, I've got lot's to think about.

It seems a Dawes race version (apparently allows the Turbo to spool up even quicker!), AFR, Boost gague, ITG Panel filter and a BB (had a Magnex 3 1/2 inch round suggested as a ''still reasonably quiet'' Prodrive alternative) is the way to go ... I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks

Paul Michael Davis

Sorry for jumping on thread. I have just fitted a full de-cat Mongoose exhaust system to my 92 Legacy Turbo (standard with K@N panel filter) and am getting overboost. Is this because the ECU can't cope with the quicker spool up time? would ghanging to a Impreza ECU stop this as you guys don't seem to get this problem? I have also brought a Dawes Devise to try and cure the problem.

mutant_matt

PMD,

Boost control on Subaru's is crap!! (well it is if you make any mods ). The Impreza suffers from the same problem. If it's causing problems then you need a boost contoller (either Manual (like a Dawes), or Electronic (lots on the market)).

Matt

Trout...

Forgive me - I may be off the pace here.

Superchips - an FCD/Clamp, utilising a bleed valve to get more power

How is this different from Dawes and home made FCD.


I am not the worlds expert, but have commented elsewhere that these approaches *can* cause problems, depending on what you a looking for from your car. At least one of these problems John Banks has now confirmed - not sure if he has a resolution to it yet.

PING - if you just want a little more on the road, and don't go for mega-blasts, or on track then you should be fine with the approaches described above.

If you plan to widen your Scooby enjoyment and want to drive harder and/or go on track - then the ECU route is best, and even better if you learn a little about what makes it tick and so you can optimise your car to any given circumstance - this would apply to any of the ECUs that you typically see mentioned - although the Unichip is still dependent on a secondary boost controller, e.g. MBC/EBC and some fiddling with restrictors.

The reason for this is that under different circumstances the boost rise will require fine tuning to protect your engine and prevent overshoot(boost) at inopportune moments!

Trout

pob on the job

Trout,
that's pretty much what my understanding of things.
Only downside I see with the superchip is the price for what it actually does.

Al

T-uk

Trout,

with a superchip it is thought that overboost protection is removed .with the diy fcd the cut point is only raised as with the dawes fuel cut lifter.

I would possibly lift my fuel cut to run the 17.5 psi that my car is supposed to be to run at.but I would not go near a track with this set up without either water injection or a front mount.I will be removing my dawes for track days until I get some intake temp monitoring.

john banks

Trout I think it is fair to say from what we have discussed and both observed that ANY boost control system goes higher on track. The Dawes was no worse than the PPP ECU for it - in fact the PPP ECU started oscillating the boost after a really hard thrash. I had to thrash harder to get the heat as it was running lower boost than the Dawes, but the end results on the PPP was spikier and less well controlled than the Dawes when things were really hot. It strikes me that similar issues are present with the EBCs and all the aftermarkets ECUs unless you get into really sophisticated models, but even then I bet you have to adjust parameters to have optimimum road and track.

The solution on any boost control system seems to be to either turn the boost down or turn down the aggressiveness of it.

If the std ECU fuels OK and probably advances LESS than many remaps then that alone doesn't seem any less safe?

If you are on the edge with any system there is a risk it could go wrong if you push it over the edge with higher load. This seems to be parameter and operator not equipment dependent.

I cannot see the need for a remap if fuelling and timing are OK at your chosen boost level and there is a big reserve for the track or you turn it down. The method seems less important than the actual boost, fuelling and timing being run?

Trout...

John,

I am very interested in the PPP result - I guess that overall the boost is overshooting and remaining within the overall safe parameter set for the car.

As to going on track - as you know - I have an apparently less sophisticated LINK and only change one parameter by a small amount to totally eradicate overboost and still maintain excellent control and maintain high levels of boost as required to be quick.

I guess the overall comment you make is spot on - the nearer you get to the edge - the more you need to do to make sure you don't go over the edge!

Trout

john banks

The PPP boost was lower than some as well Trout - I think it was the integral correction going mad as it does when it can't cope.

Ping I think you have it about right, except the bleed hole replaces the restrictor valve as we are discussing in another post.

The Superchip is a fuel cut defender and bleeder. I believe the standard ECU fuels and does the timing respectably up to 17.5 PSI (the original fuel cut). If you left the car here with a fuel cut LIFTER (not defender in case of overboost) I think it would be OK, and also turn it down for the track - when hot it will probably get to the same again from what I saw with my thrash.