FMIC ... I might have to start swallowing my words ...
04 February 2002, 09:56 AM
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OK, finally got round to have an EGT and inlet temp gauge fitted on my car.
You may know that I always tended to doubt the need for a FMIC having a MY99 with a pretty efficient standard TMIC.
That changed after 2 days of having the gauge ...
Mind you, things are not *bad*, but ...
Ambient temp : 16 degrees (it's very hot here for the time of year)
Inlet temp at 100 mph cruise : 23 degrees
Inlet temp at WOT : meter shoots up to about 40-45 degrees
Inlet temp in slow traffic: near 50 degrees
Sensor is placed in the hose going from intercooler to manifold.
Will be interesting to see how it works when it gets a bit warmer, but seeing these temps for myself has got me wondering about an FMIC ... not to have more power, but to have the same power at lower boost. I run about 1.25 to 1.3 bar on the VF23 BTW. The above temps don't look bad at all, mind you, but I can see "room for improvement" (read: money burning in pocket)
Haven't watched EGT's a lot yet, but 100 mph cruise shows between 690/710 degrees, trashing it sees a max temp of 830°. Sensor is placed in the uppipe. Does this sound about right/normal/blow up ?
I'll be unavailable for the next few hours looking for a few threads about "what's the best FMIC" etc
Theo
You may know that I always tended to doubt the need for a FMIC having a MY99 with a pretty efficient standard TMIC.
That changed after 2 days of having the gauge ...
Mind you, things are not *bad*, but ...
Ambient temp : 16 degrees (it's very hot here for the time of year)
Inlet temp at 100 mph cruise : 23 degrees
Inlet temp at WOT : meter shoots up to about 40-45 degrees
Inlet temp in slow traffic: near 50 degrees
Sensor is placed in the hose going from intercooler to manifold.
Will be interesting to see how it works when it gets a bit warmer, but seeing these temps for myself has got me wondering about an FMIC ... not to have more power, but to have the same power at lower boost. I run about 1.25 to 1.3 bar on the VF23 BTW. The above temps don't look bad at all, mind you, but I can see "room for improvement" (read: money burning in pocket)
Haven't watched EGT's a lot yet, but 100 mph cruise shows between 690/710 degrees, trashing it sees a max temp of 830°. Sensor is placed in the uppipe. Does this sound about right/normal/blow up ?
I'll be unavailable for the next few hours looking for a few threads about "what's the best FMIC" etc
Theo
04 February 2002, 11:39 AM
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Can't fault the Hyperflow FMIC.
Big ( 3-3 1/2x the size of original ), fits perfect, everything included (e.g. air filter etc), cheap to buy, reduced my lag......
A
Big ( 3-3 1/2x the size of original ), fits perfect, everything included (e.g. air filter etc), cheap to buy, reduced my lag......
A
04 February 2002, 11:52 AM
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Theo,
what makes you think the stadnard one is any good?
Shiv did some independent flow and pressure testing of lots of different top mounts and found that a 30% (massive) improvement could be had over the standard one.
I think the results were on Iclub.
I was under the impression that the sti 5 and later was so good that it could not be improved upon significantly (in standard location anyway) but these tests seem to disagree.
The front mount is another league ahead.
I am in the process fo choosing a new one for myself, will keep you posted on my choice if you are interested.
Apparently there are new ones coming out at teh mo, so I will have to do some research.
My current incling is towards HKS. Now that I am having a carbon bumper made, cutting it is not expected to be a problem, which was my main reason for being so fond of the pace. It has worked very well indeed, btu for some reason, I like things to look standard, and so want my standard fans and rad (inferior but upgradable by pace so that it will look the same!) back in place.
The APS has had universal acclaim and also seems to give great results. Bob has reported little rise above ambient at full boost which is almost unbelievable.
I am always sceptical about such results.
There does appear to be a very large cross section of front mount performances, but I would have thought the differences in designs would yield minor changes in efficiency, yet this is far from the case.
ALways leaves me in much doubt about which to choose.
what makes you think the stadnard one is any good?
Shiv did some independent flow and pressure testing of lots of different top mounts and found that a 30% (massive) improvement could be had over the standard one.
I think the results were on Iclub.
I was under the impression that the sti 5 and later was so good that it could not be improved upon significantly (in standard location anyway) but these tests seem to disagree.
The front mount is another league ahead.
I am in the process fo choosing a new one for myself, will keep you posted on my choice if you are interested.
Apparently there are new ones coming out at teh mo, so I will have to do some research.
My current incling is towards HKS. Now that I am having a carbon bumper made, cutting it is not expected to be a problem, which was my main reason for being so fond of the pace. It has worked very well indeed, btu for some reason, I like things to look standard, and so want my standard fans and rad (inferior but upgradable by pace so that it will look the same!) back in place.
The APS has had universal acclaim and also seems to give great results. Bob has reported little rise above ambient at full boost which is almost unbelievable.
I am always sceptical about such results.
There does appear to be a very large cross section of front mount performances, but I would have thought the differences in designs would yield minor changes in efficiency, yet this is far from the case.
ALways leaves me in much doubt about which to choose.
04 February 2002, 12:42 PM
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Theo
Don't know about the relative merits of different FMIC's, so I won't comment.
However, your EGT's are fine on the presumption that they are monitored accurately. Ideally you would have the probe in the exhaust manifold (either the collector or near to a sensitive cylinder such as number 3) to more accurately measure the temps, but the uppipe is OK. It may be that your map (done by Mark?) is deliberately rich to keep these temps down on WOT, and there may be room to lean out a bit to get more power.
Duncan
PS I'm confused (as ever), I thought you had an MY01 or have you more than one?
PPS A greater volume of intercooler normally results in increased lag - but ....
Don't know about the relative merits of different FMIC's, so I won't comment.
However, your EGT's are fine on the presumption that they are monitored accurately. Ideally you would have the probe in the exhaust manifold (either the collector or near to a sensitive cylinder such as number 3) to more accurately measure the temps, but the uppipe is OK. It may be that your map (done by Mark?) is deliberately rich to keep these temps down on WOT, and there may be room to lean out a bit to get more power.
Duncan
PS I'm confused (as ever
), I thought you had an MY01 or have you more than one?PPS A greater volume of intercooler normally results in increased lag - but ....
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04 February 2002, 12:56 PM
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Adam / Theo
Here is a link to the i-Club thread from Shiv (it starts strangely, but the content further down is worth a look).
Don't confuse the pressure drop across the intercooler with its' cooling efficiency. A low pressure drop is obviously good, but the cooling efficiency was not measured and would appear to be more important for a car with a big turbo but where you are concerned with intake temps.
It is also a good advert for Samco tubes! I had thought that they were only needed to avoid the standard ones popping under raised boost pressures (on the classic shaped cars, and not even that on the new shape cars). It appears they make a significant improvement in flow, perhaps hence why Prodrive still change them for the MY01 PPP.
Duncan
Here is a link to the i-Club thread from Shiv (it starts strangely, but the content further down is worth a look).
Don't confuse the pressure drop across the intercooler with its' cooling efficiency. A low pressure drop is obviously good, but the cooling efficiency was not measured and would appear to be more important for a car with a big turbo but where you are concerned with intake temps.
It is also a good advert for Samco tubes! I had thought that they were only needed to avoid the standard ones popping under raised boost pressures (on the classic shaped cars, and not even that on the new shape cars). It appears they make a significant improvement in flow, perhaps hence why Prodrive still change them for the MY01 PPP.
Duncan
04 February 2002, 01:03 PM
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Alan
Ahh, that makes more sense. I assumed that you were talking about the time taken to get back onto boost when flooring the throttle at reasonable revs rather than the speed at which the turbo spools up. The former takes longer if you have more volume to compress (eg a large volume FMIC), whereas the latter is reduced if the flow is easier because of a less restrictive flow through the intercooler (eg. a better design of intercooler than standard).
Duncan
Ahh, that makes more sense. I assumed that you were talking about the time taken to get back onto boost when flooring the throttle at reasonable revs rather than the speed at which the turbo spools up. The former takes longer if you have more volume to compress (eg a large volume FMIC), whereas the latter is reduced if the flow is easier because of a less restrictive flow through the intercooler (eg. a better design of intercooler than standard).
Duncan
04 February 2002, 01:07 PM
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Alan, thanks for the info. Will all read it carefully, as it seems this is not an easy choice thing.
Adam, yeah, please do keep us posted on the search. I'm going to take my time for this as well, and read up a bit more. Good going on the 22B mould action BTW, good thinking.
Bugeyed, we Theo's get mixed up a lot. It doesn't help dat we are good friends as well, but basically you have:
. a good looking Theo, 6'7", from Belgium, with a black MY99
. an almost as good looking, midget sized (6'3" ?) Theo, from Holland, with a black MY01
I use the nickname EvilBevel, and the other Theo uses ... Theo
Hope this clears up any future confusion LOL
Yes, my car is tuned by Mark, and safety is a big concern for him.
My dealer, who fitted the sensor, found that there was not enough "meat" on the standard manifold, so he preferred to put on a new uppipe (from a MY01 BTW) and weld it to that.
What kind of temperature drops do you see between manifold/uppipe typically ?
Theo
Adam, yeah, please do keep us posted on the search. I'm going to take my time for this as well, and read up a bit more. Good going on the 22B mould action BTW, good thinking.
Bugeyed, we Theo's get mixed up a lot. It doesn't help dat we are good friends as well, but basically you have:
. a good looking Theo, 6'7", from Belgium, with a black MY99
. an almost as good looking, midget sized (6'3" ?) Theo, from Holland, with a black MY01
I use the nickname EvilBevel, and the other Theo uses ... Theo
Hope this clears up any future confusion LOL
Yes, my car is tuned by Mark, and safety is a big concern for him.
My dealer, who fitted the sensor, found that there was not enough "meat" on the standard manifold, so he preferred to put on a new uppipe (from a MY01 BTW) and weld it to that.
What kind of temperature drops do you see between manifold/uppipe typically ?
Theo
04 February 2002, 01:09 PM
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T-uk
Yes, various people make larger scoops. The STi scoop is larger, and you can get it in various (legal) ways - via Subaru UK for a P1, various importers for a Japanese import STi, or via replicas in fibre glass or carbon fibre (depending on the health of your wallet / credit card).
Duncan
Yes, various people make larger scoops. The STi scoop is larger, and you can get it in various (legal) ways - via Subaru UK for a P1, various importers for a Japanese import STi, or via replicas in fibre glass or carbon fibre (depending on the health of your wallet / credit card
).Duncan
04 February 2002, 01:13 PM
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My big worry about FMIC is the turbo lag which is logically unavoidable. With all this plumbing there is bound to be a pressure drop. OK i know more power will be on tap but at wot price? I do have a VF22 with MoTec and lag is (just) not an issue but with FMIC? Mind u if u do track might be ok but mountain roads fun?
Just my thoughts...
Just my thoughts...
04 February 2002, 01:22 PM
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Floyd, they both read this BBS, so I'm gonna do a 5th ammendment here
Whatever I would answer, I would always lose. Think about it
They both shake their heads though when we upgrade stuff on the car
Whatever I would answer, I would always lose. Think about it
They both shake their heads though when we upgrade stuff on the car
04 February 2002, 01:25 PM
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Theo
Thanks for clearing up the confusion about the glut of Theo's in the low countries - although I'll ignore the details on who's good looking etc. (but perhaps my Sister might be interested
).
Stelios
A well engineered FMIC doesn't have to exhibit a large amount of lag, it all depends on the volumes of the intercooler and the piping used. The early Sierra Cosworths (not the RS500 and the big turbo Escort Cosworths) did not suffer from significant lag in comparison to my MY01, despite their FMIC. However, the RS500 and big turbo Escort Cosworth do because of their ridiculous size of intercooler (about 4x standard) / turbo (designed for 450 - 500 BHP) respectively.
Duncan
Thanks for clearing up the confusion about the glut of Theo's in the low countries - although I'll ignore the details on who's good looking etc. (but perhaps my Sister might be interested
).Stelios
A well engineered FMIC doesn't have to exhibit a large amount of lag, it all depends on the volumes of the intercooler and the piping used. The early Sierra Cosworths (not the RS500 and the big turbo Escort Cosworths) did not suffer from significant lag in comparison to my MY01, despite their FMIC. However, the RS500 and big turbo Escort Cosworth do because of their ridiculous size of intercooler (about 4x standard) / turbo (designed for 450 - 500 BHP) respectively.
Duncan
04 February 2002, 01:44 PM
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Theo (EB),
This thread may be of interest to you......
What Inlet Temps FMIC boys running......
Still waiting to see if anyone with a Hyperflow has got any figures for us.....
Cheers,
Matt
This thread may be of interest to you......
What Inlet Temps FMIC boys running......
Still waiting to see if anyone with a Hyperflow has got any figures for us.....
Cheers,
Matt
04 February 2002, 02:48 PM
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I would rather have my egt sensor as close to the turbo upstream of it as possible. It does help with mapping from a relative point of view but it also allows you to make sure you dont fry it.
I am convinced something is amiss with my sensor as no matter how much fuel is put in I can still hit 1060
degrees on full boost.
I still dont understand peoples concerns about front mounts inducing lots of lag. I must admit my pipework is supposed to be as short as possible and the volume of my core is about two thirds that of the offerings from aps etc, but I literally have 0 extra lag than I had before.
I always thought the extra volume would would equate to lag, as a result of the turbo needing more time to pressurise the intercooler, but if you consider how much air the turbo is flowing, the proportional increase in volume is almost insignificant against the amount of air these things throw out.
Obvioulsy a bigger turbo will be affected even less.
Responsiveness is also not an issue as the pressure waive generated at the turbo will be felt at the throttle body immediately, as given that pressure waves in air at standard temoperature and pressure travel at 330m/s (pressure and temperaure are nearly always higherthan this), the lengthof the system is almost a moot point.
Forget the theory, thats just how I like to do things. Go out in a car with a front mount and see what you think. I have only heard of one instance of lag making the car feel slow, and that funnily enough was with a hyprflow intercooler.
I am currently inclinde towards the HKS, but want to have a look at the blitz and apexi offerings.
I am convinced something is amiss with my sensor as no matter how much fuel is put in I can still hit 1060
degrees on full boost.I still dont understand peoples concerns about front mounts inducing lots of lag. I must admit my pipework is supposed to be as short as possible and the volume of my core is about two thirds that of the offerings from aps etc, but I literally have 0 extra lag than I had before.
I always thought the extra volume would would equate to lag, as a result of the turbo needing more time to pressurise the intercooler, but if you consider how much air the turbo is flowing, the proportional increase in volume is almost insignificant against the amount of air these things throw out.
Obvioulsy a bigger turbo will be affected even less.
Responsiveness is also not an issue as the pressure waive generated at the turbo will be felt at the throttle body immediately, as given that pressure waves in air at standard temoperature and pressure travel at 330m/s (pressure and temperaure are nearly always higherthan this), the lengthof the system is almost a moot point.
Forget the theory, thats just how I like to do things. Go out in a car with a front mount and see what you think. I have only heard of one instance of lag making the car feel slow, and that funnily enough was with a hyprflow intercooler.
I am currently inclinde towards the HKS, but want to have a look at the blitz and apexi offerings.
04 February 2002, 03:17 PM
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Stelios
I'm also running the VF22 turbo and my lag *reduced* when the Hyperflow cooler was fitted. Full boost by 3200rpm....
Mutant Matt
Once my clutch is replaced i'll take a few readings for you. Bear with me.
A
I'm also running the VF22 turbo and my lag *reduced* when the Hyperflow cooler was fitted. Full boost by 3200rpm....
Mutant Matt
Once my clutch is replaced i'll take a few readings for you. Bear with me.
A
04 February 2002, 10:36 PM
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Wouldn't it......
I have heard a few comments from a few people who don't have great things to say about the Pace and without wishing to start a witch hunt, it would be nice if anybody with any thoughts either way on the Pace could quantify their opinions?
The reason I'm particularly curious about the Pace is of course because it's the only one which you can take out and revert the car to standard, something which so far, I have managed to adhere to.....
Matt
I have heard a few comments from a few people who don't have great things to say about the Pace and without wishing to start a witch hunt, it would be nice if anybody with any thoughts either way on the Pace could quantify their opinions?
The reason I'm particularly curious about the Pace is of course because it's the only one which you can take out and revert the car to standard, something which so far, I have managed to adhere to.....
Matt
04 February 2002, 10:42 PM
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BugEyed,
are your comments on deeper bonnet scoops for old or new shape turbos.I have a MY00 old shape,would a P1/STI type UK scoop fit?
I only really want a deeper one for track days but cannot find anyone that does them
.
are your comments on deeper bonnet scoops for old or new shape turbos.I have a MY00 old shape,would a P1/STI type UK scoop fit?
I only really want a deeper one for track days but cannot find anyone that does them
.
04 February 2002, 11:17 PM
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T-uk,
I think the scoops on the old shapes were the same regardless of UK or Jap spec.
It's the MY01> which the WRX has a smaller scoop than the STi.
Matt
I think the scoops on the old shapes were the same regardless of UK or Jap spec.
It's the MY01> which the WRX has a smaller scoop than the STi.
Matt
05 February 2002, 12:18 AM
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T-uk
Looks like I'm talking bo11ocks - I thought the P1 had a bigger scoop, but looking at a few pictures it looks the same as the UK cars. I now think that Matt is correct, it is only the MY01 that is different between the WRX and the STi.
As an alternative, how about this Cusco replica from Primitive ....
Duncan
Looks like I'm talking bo11ocks - I thought the P1 had a bigger scoop, but looking at a few pictures it looks the same as the UK cars. I now think that Matt is correct, it is only the MY01 that is different between the WRX and the STi.
As an alternative, how about this Cusco replica from Primitive ....
Duncan
05 February 2002, 09:22 AM
#26
AlanG
I too have the VF22 and Hyperflow combination - but I dont get max boost at 3200rpm !
I assume you have a Link - what do I need to do to the map to get the boost on earlier ?
Stelios
Mate , just get yourself a FMIC - You wont regret it
I too have the VF22 and Hyperflow combination - but I dont get max boost at 3200rpm !
I assume you have a Link - what do I need to do to the map to get the boost on earlier ?
Stelios
Mate , just get yourself a FMIC - You wont regret it
05 February 2002, 12:43 PM
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Rob do you have a Link as well? If so you need to modify either a) the wastegate rpm to a lower value or b) increase the boost pressure earlier in the rpm map for boost.
I really wouldn't be looking at taking the wastegate rpm under 3000 for a VF22 though not really much point.
If you don't have a link just ignore me
HTH
Brett
I really wouldn't be looking at taking the wastegate rpm under 3000 for a VF22 though not really much point.
If you don't have a link just ignore me
HTH
Brett
05 February 2002, 12:47 PM
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>1000 degrees does scare me, especially at the turbo, but I have to say I am convinced that it is due to the gauge being way off.
It is a defi gauge. Does anyone else have a defi egt gauge that can report the kind of temps they get?
It is a defi gauge. Does anyone else have a defi egt gauge that can report the kind of temps they get?
05 February 2002, 01:02 PM
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Bug Eyed
Only the Sti7 has a bigger scoop, the P1 and all earlier versions use the same size across MYs.
The shape changed in 97 and the latest scoop will fit cars back to 97/version3.
Only the Sti7 has a bigger scoop, the P1 and all earlier versions use the same size across MYs.
The shape changed in 97 and the latest scoop will fit cars back to 97/version3.
05 February 2002, 01:05 PM
#30
Nice one Brett.
I have wastegate set at 3200 rpm
But have now changed zones 700 , 705 , 710 , 715 to 2.2 max 2.3
Are you diving for cover up there in Darwin ? - Cyclone around I believe.
I have wastegate set at 3200 rpm
But have now changed zones 700 , 705 , 710 , 715 to 2.2 max 2.3
Are you diving for cover up there in Darwin ? - Cyclone around I believe.