Stephen Pope

Car was serviced at the dealership on Saturday, 82,500 mile service, new brake pads and new rocker gaskets both sides (per my request as the turbo one was leaking slightly.)
Once serviced and after a few miles, there was burning oil from the turbo side - I assumed this was residual oil following the 'operation.' Keeping my eye on the oil level, I took it for a drive to burn off the 'residual' oil. Again, checking the oil at all times. Interestingly enough, the oil level was about 1.5 - 2 inches above the maximum - this has always been the case after a service there. Anyway, Saturday night, keeping up with the traffic on the motorway, I lost some power so I knocked it into neutral to take the strain off the engine; the oil light flickered, then all the dash lights came on as the engine cut out. I left it for c. 10 minutes and then started it. The engine was turning over slowly as it started and I DO NOT THINK it was the battery. It started and I carried on for about 1 minute. The engine sounded slightly tappety and slightly sluggish. The tappety noise became slightly worse and so I turned the engine off and called the £117.00 TOW TRUCK to take it back to the dealers. The temperature was always bang on in the middle, the oil was consitently 1.5 - 2 inches above the maximum and the oil light only flickered once. What has happened - Engine knackered, oil from leaking gasket causing spark plug not to spark?? HELP, HELP? I need some ammunition before the dealer comes back to me this morning. Do you guys think it could be the dealers fault - do fundamental parts need to be removed to replace rocker gaskets that may have lead to this problem?

dualtech

"the oil was consitently 1.5 - 2 inches above the maximum "

Way too much oil... I'm sure the experts will be along shortly to give you some advice

Stephen Pope

Could this have knackered the engine then?

Shropshire-Guy

Oil at 1.5 to 2 inches above maximum is baddddd. I would go back to dealer and kick up holy sxxt. i know it doesn,t help you mate and i feel for you. Maybe its just something simple. Fingers crossed for you Stephen, hope it,s not toooo expensive

Butty

iTrader: (2)

Was this a Subaru dealer?
If so then they haven't followed their service guidelines - makes you wonder if they alos forgot to get the oil round the system before firing it up?
There has been many a thread about cooked engines happening not long after being serviced.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

How were you reading the oil? Exact procedure please.

1.5 to 2 inches sounds more like 5 litres too much, however, you may be mis reading it.

Dont wish to insult your intelligence, just want to get a simple question out of the way.

For the OEM oil light to flicker, oil pressure has dropped massivley.

Inital observation, you have the often occuring, post service engine failure. I pray to god i am wrong.

Steven

Stephen Pope

Butty - Yes, it was a Subaru dealer.
P20SPD - I checked the oil on several occasions. Car was level, the engine had been switched off for say 5 minutes. There are two holes on the dip stick, the 1.5 - 2 inches was measured from there.
Spoke to the dealer this morning - he is waiting on their big chief coming back in before he starts it.
Thanks for the advice in advance guys.

pugoetru

you would think the dealers would be able to put the right amount of oil in

to much oil can do just as much harm as too little and they should know that

greasemonkey

Just so we know absolutely certainly what you're talking about here, are you saying the oil was 1.5-2 inches above the upper hole? Also, and again not wanting to insult your intelligence, just establishing the facts, did you wipe the dipstick completely clean before taking the reading?

The one thing we can say right now is that putting too much oil in can cause more harm than good, so if the level really is as high as you're making out, this is a big black mark against the dealer concerned. Whether it's the cause of the problems you're having though is another issue.

As Nick and Steven have said, it's not uncommon for engines to suffer (normally big end) problems very shortly after a service. The cause is widely regarded here as a failure to properly reprime the oil system before starting the engine, leading to temporary oil film breakdown around the bearings, with subsequent metal to metal contact causing the damage.

There is apparently a Subaru UK service bulletin that stresses the importance of this, but not all dealers follow it. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to prove that a dealer didn't follow this procedure (unless you can get them to inadvertently admit it), so establishing negligence on their part won't be easy unfortunately.

Anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves here, as it could be the actual problem is something completely different, maybe even something like a bust alternator or something along those lines. Let us know what the dealer says about the nature/cause of the problem and we'll go from there.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Ditto what GM says, method is sstill not clear.

CataIunya

Don't wanna be the barer of bad news but as mentioned above, I think its your big ends that have gone. The good news is it should be upto the dealers to fix.

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Stephen Pope

Greasemonkey - What you say is absolutely correct - I have just checked my measuring tape to confirm and can confidently say that the oil was at least 1.5 inches above - when the engine oil was warm. I would imagine that when cold and all the oil had settled, it would certainly be towards 2 inches. As per my first post, it could have been leaking oil as a result of the potential leaking gasket fitted on the same day by the dealer which potentially means that there was in fact even more oil earlier in the day.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

So, assuming you wiped it clean, before measuring, then we are talking about 1.5 inch above the top mark?

**** me, if thats the case, that is disgraceful. Sounds like they have done the rocker seals, but not drain all the oil or changed the filter, then added 4.5 litres of oil as a standard measure.

Stephen Pope

Greasemonkey - Yes, I used a cloth to thoroughly clean the dipstick in order to obtain a correct reading. I know for a fact that the service was done on Friday the 11th and that the gaskets were done on Saturday as they had to order the parts (they told me this.) So what you suggest about putting in the oil and not draining it first could be true - how ironic that we are talking about dipsticks! The dealer will call me hopefuly this afternoon - I will post an update as soon as the information becomes available. Cheers.

greasemonkey

It doesn't work that way in practice. Normally the oil level is slightly lower when cold than it is when hot. Forgot to ask earlier as well - what model year is your car?

It seems as though there are a couple of issues here that may not be related to each other.

Putting too much oil in these engines does more harm than good, although the first symptom is normally an oiled-up boost solenoid, which causes jerky running. If the overfill is extreme though, worse can happen. I think the biggest thing we can say though is that if the dealer can make basic elementary errors like overfilling the car with oil, what else are they doing wrong?

The need to establish oil pressure properly is well known by most of the clued up folk around here, but it's an open question whether main dealers do it during a service. We know they should, and we know that some do, but whether yours did is another question.

I'd suggest that, for the time being, you don't say anything about this/ask them whether they established oil pressure - until they tell you what the exact nature of the problem is. It might turn out that they fess up and fix for you.

Is your car still under warranty btw?

Stephen Pope

MY98 uk Turbo. Totally standard appart from Afterburner back box (big deal!)
There was no jerkiness at any stage that I was aware of. Although it certainly appeared sluggish for a while (5 miles/ ten minutes etc) prior to the painful end.
The car is NOT still under warranty.
What was that you mentioned about the alternator and how much would I be looking at (£) for the dealer to make the engine good - if knackered??

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

I would personally request to be there when the oil is dropped, and measure its quantity. Although i would not give them any warning of your request.

Really does sound like they have serviced, done the oil change, filled it up, then next day done the rocker cover, then filled again

Depending on what is wrong, then cost could be anything upto a couple of grand.

Hope its something simple like clogged boost solenoid, map sensor or something else.

steven

Stephen Pope

You and me both mate.

greasemonkey

Was this on the motorway, under steady cruise conditions, or were things a little more spirited than that?

...In which case it's to be hoped that you can establish negligence on the part of the dealer during the service.

That was a bit of a long shot to be honest, but it does illustrate that there are other potential explanations other than an expensive big end failure. Some alternators can short-circuit when they fail. The resulting drag can make the engine feel sluggish, and put enough strain on the drive belt that an older one can make a squeaky sort of noise not too dissimilar from tappets. Because the alternator isn't charging, the battery flattens and the car eventually dies. Like I said not the likeliest set of circumstances but it can happen.

As Steven says this is a piece of string situation. If it turns out to be something simple the bill will be small, whereas if it is big ends it could be the thick end of a couple of grand.

Being there when they start pulling it apart would definitely be a good idea, although there is a train of thought to suggest getting an independent engineer to have a look at it as well.

Stephen Pope

In response: I had opened it up a few times...as you do. When I joined the motorway, it felt slightly sluggish and a few miles doiwn the road, to check it, I dropped down, booted it and it still felt slightly sluggish. A mile or so later, it then died.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

That is exactly how alot of them go. Sadly it is sounding more and more like a big end failure to me.

greasemonkey

Yep, that is, unfortunately, the likeliest explanation, caused probably by failure to re-establish oil supply and pressure prior to restarting the engine following the oil change. The overfill was probably coincidental rather than a direct contributor to the failure.

How many miles had you covered between picking the car up and the failure occurring?

Stephen Pope

I had done about 50 miles or thereabouts. Some of which was with the foot to the floor. Most was generally cruising.
Just received the phone call from the dealer as I am typing this out. Guess what - they have stated that there was no leak from the rocker gaskets and there was plenty oil in the car and therefore, they have done nothing wrong. When I questioned them about the oil level, they said that it would be fine when cold and it would seem very high when warm. The steam is coming out my ears!
They reckon it is big end failure and a new 'short engine' is required. They will have to strip it down and I have instructed them to do this. Any thoughts - should they be paying for it or should I be taking it up the ****?
I have my stag weekend this weekend and I get married 3 weeks after - how the hell can I pay for this as well?
Greasemonkey - I asked them about the oil pressure - they said they did not check it. Also they claim that the new, thinner oil could have brought the problem to light and the older, thicker oil was holding the engine together.

greasemonkey

Stephen, I'll type a proper reply in a sec but as soon as you see this, phone the dealer and tell them to hold off on stripping the car down!

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Do not let them touch the car!

I can guess what GM is going to say, but for christ sake dont let them touch the car any more than they have.

Garden path...

greasemonkey

F**k all really. It would be a bloody huge coincidence for the failure to be totally unrelated to their "work".

In their opinion.

That's bollocks, in a word. Their instructions from IM are to fill the sump to midway between the L and F marks and to consider the F mark as the maximum amount of oil that should ever be present in the engine, even when hot.

Don't blame you.

They're probably right about the nature of the problem. Whether a whole new short engine is needed, and indeed whether you want this bunch doing the job, is another thing altogther.

Personally I wouldn't let them touch the car. If it were mine, I'd get it to somewhere with the experience and reputation (if you wanted a recommendation it'd be APIDavid) and get him to write a report on the nature of the failure during the course of the fix. With a bit of luck you may be able to gather enough evidence to threaten the dealer with action for negligence. If nothing else, the repair is likely to be cheaper than it would be from this bunch, and you'd also have much more confidence that it had been done properly.

Figures. They've probably just chucked an empty new filter on, poured a load of oil in and started the engine. The air in the pressurised side of the system (including over half a litre of it in the filter) gets blown through the system as the car is turned over. If this is enough to disrupt the oil film around one or more of the shells, combustion forces cause metal to metal contact, and failure is then only a matter of time.

Unfortunately, suspecting this is one thing, proving it to the satisfaction of a court is something else, so you may be on a sticky wicket with this mob if they don't want to roll over and admit to being clueless.

That's crap, complete bull****. As oil ages, it doesn't get "thicker" (i.e. increase its viscosity). It becomes contaminated with carbon particles and unburned fuel, (if anything effectively getting thinner), and protecting less.

This explanation doesn't hold any water at all, and betrays the ignorance of whoever said it. I wouldn't let someone with ideas like that in their head anywhere near a car I owned.

As said further up, if I were you I'd get the engine sorted somewhere known to be reputable, get a report written, and use that, plus any other evidence you can find, to suggest that dealer's employees were negligent during the oil change process. You might then convince them to stump up at least part of the cost of the repair.

Stephen Pope

APIDavid? Is this for an alternative contact?

They can not start on it till next week anyway, so we are OK for the timebeing. I will pop up and talk to them this week. Thanks for your help - do you seriously reckon that it could be down to the servicing - surely these guys have carried out more oil changes that we have had hot dinners - afterall they are Subaru dealers - or am I being too nice?

Mark A

iTrader: (1)

"I dropped down, booted it and it still felt slightly sluggish. A mile or so later, it then died"
Best not mention that to the garage

Mark A

greasemonkey

It's for someone (www.apiengines.com btw) who'll do the job properly, yeah, as well as being able to give you an informed professional opinion on what went wrong. There are others though, some of which may be more convenient depending on where you are in the country (API are just outside Warwick), so have a look around. No matter I feel you need someone who knows their **** looking at the engine, rather than just trusting this bunch to do it.

If I were you I'd turn up unannounced with either a flatbed trailer, or a mate's car and a towrope, and get the car outta there. With a bit of luck they won't have dropped the oil yet, so when you do take it to the third party, you can get them to measure the amount that comes out, and thus you will have independent confirmation if it has been overfilled.

Like I said, I wouldn't talk to them til you've got the car back. If you leave it there they're in the driving seat, as it were. If you get it back and then tell them you're going to get it fixed somewhere else and get a report written, they may become a little more compliant.

To be honest, yeah. There are far too many stories about EJ20 engines failing very shortly after an oilchange. The method by which the damage gets done is fairly logical, and it's noticeable that many dealers and specialist will take the simple steps necessary to combat it.

Afraid so. Don't make the mistake of assuming that all car dealers or mechanics have your best interests at heart. Ultimately a lot of them don't give a sh*t whether they do the job properly or not, either through sheer laziness (I wonder whether the fact that this was a "Saturday" job is a factor), or as they figure they're going to get paid to fix the failure anyway.

scoobyboy

i dont think the garage meant that the oil incresed in viscosity i think they mean that it gets sludgy. but i agree that it was a dodgy explanation especially if they have been doing the servicing themselves and at regular intervals then the chance of that happening is very remote.