StephenDone

As my next mod, I am planning to get a replacement top mount intercooler. I know FMICs have pros & cons, but I want to stick with a TMIC for ease of install and minimal lag - I have a standard ECU.

I have done a bit of research, and below is a list of products I can find. Has anyone tried any of these ? Any preferences or companies to avoid ? Any I've missed ?

Thanks for your help

Steve D.

GavinP

Steve,

What is the model year of your car ?

Thanks

Gavin

StephenDone

99MY UK Turbo running standard boost
PE T75 Exhaust System
PE Equal Length Manifold
GGR K&N/STI Induction Kit
Replacement I/C Hoses
Intake hose on its way

Cheers

Steve

dowser

I would try giving Bob Rawle a call on this one - have you read through Adam M.'s FMIC thread? I think this is what Gavin was getting at.

Richard

StephenDone

Yes, I've read the FMIC thread, but it's talking purely about front mounts.

>I would try giving Bob Rawle a call on this one.
Hopefully Bob will reply if he has time.

Has anyone out there tried a replacement top mount ?

Cheers

Steve

Adam M

Steven,

they are referring to the fact that the phase 2 engines standard intercooler that bob has tested on his car is very capable already, and the gains from uprating are far less than would be achieved by upgrading an earlier car.

Saying that, I have heard excellent talk about the MRT top mount producing fantastic results. You will have to ask R19KET if they are better than the standard phase 2 intercooler. I suspect the answer is yes.

If you are interested, I may know of some second hand ones flying around.

steve McCulloch

why not opt for water injection?

Dont know how small the 99MY is but the sti5/6 top mounted intercoolers are meant to be very efficient - its been commented that the sti5 was more efficient than an after market MRT one!

You should be able to pick up some second hand soon, as more people opt for the front mount option.... like me!

Water injection will cost circa £500-£600, whereas a new top mount will be about £800 ish - take your pick - if u want status quo I'd most certainly opt for water injection. I know a chap in Leeds with WI on a UK car that works to great effect!

StephenDone

>If you are interested, I may know of some
>second hand ones flying around.
>
Sounds interesting. I'll try getting hold of
R19KET.

Cheers

Steve

Mo

Steve,

the WI kit is circa £300 and is dead easy to fit.

Zak - MY94 with WI

StephenDone

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mo:
<B>Steve,

the WI kit is circa £300 and is dead easy to fit.

Zak - MY94 with WI[/quote]

Thanks Zak.
What does WI stand for ?
Do they have a web site ?
Steve

Mo

Stephen,

WI = Water Injection

Mine was fitted by PowerStation but it is a very simple job to do it yourself. I would recommend fitting this if you do not want to spend the money on a FMIC.

Or keeping with your top mount and put the money towards a Link or similar to take real advantage of your current set-up

StephenDone

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mo:
<B>Stephen,
WI = Water Injection
[/quote]

DOH !

I think my money would be better spent on a brain transplant :-)

AndrewC

Not wishing to confuse matters (more than they already are in my head) but we are talking about Water Injection here not a water spray.

Surely WI is used to delay the onset of detonation thereby allowing increased boost pressure without retarding ignition, whereas a more efficent I/C and/or Water Spray are used to reduce charge temperatures and therefore increase charge density at a given boost pressure.

I don't see why WI would be useful on its own?

Andrew...

StephenDone

I am running standard boost, so I wouldn't have thought water injection is going to do much for me - my car isn't having to retard the ignition (I know from a RR session at PE), so I can't take advantage of more advanced ignition timing due to lower temperatures.

I'm on a bit of a mission to see how much power/torque I can get _without_ the more risky ECU/turbo changes. I'm still on standard bar boost at 257BHP/261Lbft but I would like to reach 300 if possible.

Steve

Trout...

Surely you answer the question yourself...

...water injection enables you to prolong the onset of detonation thereby either increase boost or advance the ignition (or both).

Increased boost = more fuel/air mix in the cylinder
Increased advance = more torque/power (at peak boost I got 8lb/ft for each degree of advance I could squeeze out of the car)

Of course if you cannot change these parameters then if anything water injection will do nothing other than reduce power very slightly.

Good protection for your engine on track however.

If you can change these parameters and then rely on water to enable more advance and the water runs out - ooopps!

Trout

GavinP

Steve,

I'm sure you could realise gains from a better intercooler but as already stated Bob rates the OE one which you already have.

Maybe you would like to consider a couple of different options:

1. VF24 turbo - slightly larger, more efficient design.

2. Link ECU - maximise the potential of your current mods with a tailored engine management setup.

WI can be used for evaporative cooling but is more commonly used for detonation suppression.

I would also recommend you drop a note to Bob as he is a "fountain of good advice".

Thanks

Gavin

Sam Elassar

hi steve
you really need to say what are you trying to achieve with this top mounted intercooler ? on it is own is going to do bu99er all really. most people uprate their intercooler for a reason. ie run more boost pressure while keeping the charge temps at an acceptable level, running cooler charge also allow more ignition advance to be programmed in, and so on.

so if you are running standard boost they it is unlikely that you will benefit from TMIC other wise.

if you are going to run more boost then you will need to decide how much do you want to push the envelope for. mark was getting really good results with his MRT set up.

save you money and get link ecu first you will gain a lot more power with it. it will actually be very interesting to see how you get on with a link ecu added to that tasty set up of yours

StephenDone

Hi Sam,

Check out this link to AVO's intercooler:

StephenDone

btw, I have dropped Bob a mail to see if he has any advice for us.

Have a good weekend !

Steve

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

What about the MY01 TMIC? thats 35% larger than the pre 00 ones so wouldnt that make a difference???
its that time of night so am waffling

Tony

Trout...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by StephenDone:
<B>'Over the quarter mile, the intercooler bolted on with no other changes has proved to decrease the time by 0.3 seconds, and increase the mile an hour by four'
That's a bit better than bugger all to me !
[/quote]

Stephen,

I don't think a quarter mile test is a good one for an intercooler. Sure they got better results and why not.

But 'intercooling' is a big problem for a Scoob over a standing quarter. Simply, as the car waits on the line for take off - the intercooler suffers abnormal heat soak and so for the first few seconds the intercooler is running less than optimally.

So, yes a better intercooler will hopefully cool down faster, however may also give disprortional results compared to say a flying lap.

Just a thought!

Cheers,

Trout

PS I paid no additional premium for my Link ECU

StephenDone

Thanks for all the tips & advice everyone.

Cheers

Steve

GavinP

David,

You mean like this....?

StephenDone

Hi there,

In case you guys are interested, this is the reply I got from Ben at MRT on their intercooler. Not saying I agree or disagree - I'll reserve judgement :-)

&gt; Hi Ben,
&gt; ..
&gt;I have a 99MY WRX, and have been told that
&gt;the OEM part is just as good as
&gt;the after market ones. Have you found this &gt;to be true ?
&gt;
Hi Stephen.

Thanks for your reply.

The standard OEM top mount intercooler on the later MY99 onwards models is
certainly much better than the older single inlet style models. However,
there is no way that it can compare to the larger aftermarket top mount
intercoolers that we offer.

The larger MRT top mounted intercooler is made from a bar and plate core
(more efficient than standard tube and fin core at transferring heat), is
more than 40% larger in size, has a huge increase in internal flow rate
(which translates to less lag and greater efficiency) and has a greater
surface area to assist with improved heat transfer.

If you fit one to an otherwise virtually standard car you will not notice
much difference as there are other components that are more restrictive.
However, on a car with a larger turbo, full exhaust system, new intake and
running higher boost then you will certainly notice the difference. It is
even better on the track, as it will also help maintain a consistant intake
charge. The standard OEM intercooler is only efficient for a small while
before the core starts retaining heat (ie it is unable to lose the heat from
the core as fast as it is being heated by the intake air) under heavy
load/boost conditions. The larger MRT unit does not suffer this due to the
more efficient design and components.

You will also notice a difference on hotter summer days when your car tends
to "lose" power due to the higher intake temp.

I am always reluctant to give before and after temps, as this will vary on
EVERY car due to the specific modifications that the owner has made, and the
exact conditions that the car is being used in. Eg a dyno test will be
different to a road test, and even in the same environment, temps can vary
depending on when the test is performed and how it is performed. On a single
car for tuning purposes they are ok, but to take one manufacturers claims
and stake it against anothers is just plain wrong. This can never be an
accurate comparison, and every manufacturer will quote the best possible
results they have achieved in order to sell more units!

Keeping all of this in mind, we have seen several of our clients cars with
similar mods to those described above seeing temperature drops of 15-20 degC
in race conditions after a couple of laps (when the standard OEM unit starts
to become inefficient). The drop in intake temp directly influences turbo
lag and power produced at higher rpms, although all round drivability is
also improved.

I hope this helps answer your queries.

Kind Regards
Ben
MRT Performance "We Rally, You Win !"

David_Wallis

Do chargecoolers not exist for scoobys... when I was into novas.. and people were doing calibra turbo engines.. some people would use charge coolers.. (also seen on r5gtt) intercooler submerged in water with seperate radiator and electric pump..??

As these not more effective than intercoolers???

David

StephenDone

Hadn't thought of that...

All the cooling of an FMIC with none of the lag.

Steve

Sam Elassar

what MRT are stating makes sense, actually. temperature charges did constantly keep climping when i had the standard tmic. the situation was very bad with small td04l turbo that i had intially. i kmow some poeple were getting around 65-70 degrees with the standard intercooler. a bigger more effecient intercooler will have to be better than the standard one any way.

all you need is to add couple of hundred squids to the price of the tmic you want and you could get a fmic. there is not really that much lag at all, but to get benefit from it you would need at least to add an aftermarket ecu to the equation or other wise you will not really benefit at all. maybe you will hold the boost better at the top end due to a better core, but that is really it.

David_Wallis

Right that settles it... keeping my eye out for one of them.

David

Adam M

Just been reading over this, and want to make it clear that the lag you experience is not the same as the lag associated with fitting a larger turbo. It does not move the point at which the turbo spools up, it is merely the delay associated with pressurising the system.

The system is larger due to the size of the core and the pipe work, hance takes longer to fill. You would be surprised at how much air is flowing through the engine at full boost, and in this situation the volume is pretty insignificant.

I cannot speak reagrding other makes, but with the soon to be released Pace kit I am running on my car, I have noticed zero lag. This is not a case of it being mapped out, as it has been rnu on the jecs ecu also. The throttle rpsonse simply has not changed at all.

Despite this, Pace are wroking on my car again now, to move the dump valvem make the pipework even less restrictive and even shorter compared with other systems I have seen.

Sam,

I am not so sure I am convinced that teh front munt kits are only a few hundred quid more than the uprated top mounts, and they seem to be selling now for the best part of 1k whereas scoobymania top mounts are significantly less than that.

Reagrding WI, it has been covered above, but in hot weather it is certainly a very safe way to run an engine, hwowever as rannoch says, in the absence of a modded map it will only sap power.

Water spray however will reduce charge temps and hence increase power in the same way an uprated intercooler should.

As regards to performance testing, on top of what rannoch has said abouot quarter miles, quotes like that sound like utter drivel. Speak to Craig hardman and ask him what variations you will get between runs, I think you will find it is more significant that those differences.

jimbob2

Stephen,
off topic I know, but as a fellow C&W man, I'll have to agree that the insurance is fantastic, albeit golden handcuffs.

I'm running a p1 at present, and a 23 year old guy wh works with me in Enterprise is running an RS4 - £7000 if he leaves.

I wouldn't be recommending working for C&W at the moment though.

Head for DI if you're after the job security!

J