Adam M

hi all.

odd that I am asking this, but I thought I'd throw it open to the board.

My car has a standard water spray system, but I am having a front mount fitted as we speak and it will return in about a week.

I want to know if and why people think it is worth extending the tubes so that the front mount is sprayed.

The problem I have seen is that it is not a very fine jet, and with the intercooler being vertical, I think I am just going to soak the floor. I could use some different jets to get a finer spray and perhaps combat this.

Water injection will be being used after the intercooler only.

Since the syetm is already in place I am not sure if it is worth the effort.
I presume any water will add to the efficiency of the system, but it could be a lot of money and effort for nothing.

On top of the this, the motec ecu will not allow for the spray to be automatically controlled like it is with the jecs.

This will mean i will be forced to use a new switching system, if I am replacing the tank too (2litre standard is poxy) then hardly any original is retained.

I will be installing much of this stuff for water injection anyway, so it isnt too big a deal to run extra for the spray too.

I just want to know who in my position would write off the spray and rely on a fmic to do all the cooling.

firefox

Yes

IWatkins

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Adam M:
<B>On top of the this, the motec ecu will not allow for the spray to be automatically controlled like it is with the jecs.[/quote]

Yes it will. Just like it can control the water injection or anything else really.

My suggestion is to rip out all your current IC spray kit. Next, fit a large ally water tank in the boot. After that, run a water line to under the bonnet. Next, break that line into two. One of these to pump 1 the second to pump 2 (don't use ERL pumps). Pump 1 then has fine jets (ERL ones are good) to supply a spray over the FMIC. Pump 2 is the water injection setup that is plumbed in post IC (I guess). Hook the whole lot up so that when the water injection comes on (i.e. when you need it) then it also triggers pump 1 for the FMIC. Obviously, the water injection will be controlled via the intake temp. probe combined with throttle position and boost level sensors.

Fully automatic, all you need to do is is also wire in a float switch to the boot mounted tank to warn you of low water levels.

Now, whether you need any of this is down to you.....

Cheers

Ian

Adam M

that is generally what I had in mind Ian, but the motec is not going to have enough inputs/outputs left to do what I had in mind.

I am thinking of running the most simple 1s water injection system as I think fully mappable is overkill on the road.

water spray will most likely be temp and boost related.

steve McCulloch

Adam - I am looking at the FMIC and have water spray from an ally tank in the boot. I was going to put on water injection but will be looking at the temperatures after fitting the fmic

On talking to Bob the waterspray will be redundant and it will probably be unlikely that I will need water injection - but we'll see!

Rich_R

Adam

Now that you got the fmic - where will you be injecting the water? The only option I have now having fitted a fmic is directly into the plenum - which is not my first choice. Used to have it injecting into a special hose just before the plenum - had to ditch this to make way for the fmic hose.

Isn't Danny using 2 pumps - one for WI and the other for the tmic spray.

Rich.

Adam M

Rich, injecting into plenum sounds great to me, much larger volume to mix water with charge rather than wall wetting.

I will be ringing up the front mount people and getting them to fit the water inj boss just before the throttle body.

Steve,

there is no, "I wont need it"

water injection can be used to lower inlet temps, but that isnt its main mechanism for working.

The whole point is for the water to stay as a mist, within the charge, so that it effectively boils immedeiately as the charge ignites. This means that the some energy of the explosion goes into vapourising the water. The result is the cylinder and exhaust doesnt get anywhere near as hot and so, det is less likely.

yes cooling charge will increase performance, but there are other issues going on. I certainly wont be using water injection to cool down inlet temps. In this case, taht is what spray and the fmic are for.

I will still use water spray, but not with an erl pump like danny. I think this is way overkill, and too expensive. I may use the aquamist jet with the standard pump.

Will need to speak to Pat or bob to find out what triggers the standard water spray.

IWatkins

Adam,

If you are using water injection for det. control (or det. prevention) then you will need some tight and intelligent control over it. I.e. using the MoTeC to trigger it based on throttle position, boost and inlet temps. (P.S. if you are having bosses fitted for WI jets, also think about where the inlet temp. probe is going to go)

If you are going to go with a spray for the FMIC, then run a separate pump and a pair of sprays and either:

A) get a proper MoTeC that has enough outputs.
B) run it off a timing circuit or an intelligent water spray system (various systems available and fairly cheap too)
C) use a switch on the dash
d) really crude, use a switch on the 100% throttle stop

Advice for free, don't use ERL pumps. Get something stronger, more powerful and more reliable. However, ERL jets and hose kits are top stuff.

P.S. Have another think about your ideas of how water injection works. Do you really think that a water mist (i.e. not evaporated) can survive coming into contact with the cylinder walls etc. let alone the compression stroke ? I promise you, it'll be evaporated long before the ignition stroke

Cheers

Ian

CraigH

Adam,

If Bob has informed Steve that he probably won't need it, I think that's a more accurate answer than yours, bearing in mind he knows Steves car and Steves requirements and you don't.

If the map is correct and good, why do you need WI?

GavinP

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by IWatkins:
<B>Get something stronger, more powerful and more reliable. [/quote]


Ian,

What pump would you recommend to use ?

I am looking at Flojet models - the ET500 stands out as it flows upto 40 lph at 230psi.

I'm awaiting their reply on pricing etc but would be interested in your views.

Thanks

Gavin

Adam M

Craig,

Bob said to steve that water spray would not be needed, I didnt argue with that, if I knew myself,I wouldnt have started this thread would I?

With regard to water injection, it is not clear whether or not steve is expressing bobs words here. Even if he was, I would still argue if I believed I was right, and I do here.

It is true, that if the map is fine and it doesnt det, then why bother, it would be expensive and unnecessary, this is true.

but if the map is safe, then adding water, although reducing power without a remap will make it safer, and I dont see the harm in making the car less prone to det as well as reducing egt at the expense of a few horses.

With a remap, water injection allows you to push passed the power loss, and extract more power without going passed the risk of det point.

I cant imagine why Bob would disagree with that.

IWatkins

Adam,
Apologies, I've confused myself. Yes, a lot of it will be available to remove heat via evaporation during ignition stroke but quite a bit is also evaporated while hanging about behind the valve for that cylinder (just like the fuel) and also quite a bit evaporates during compression stroke. Higher pressure also equals higher temperature.

Gavin,
Flojet is good stuff (ask JF) or there are other makers too. Basically, marine bilge pumps are the kind of thing to look for. However, most companies who make them also make higher pressure/lower flow rate pumps for industrial proccess. These are suitable for water injection as well as water sprays. Can't remember the make of pumps Powerstation use, but it is cracking little pump. Doesn't seem to matter how many outlets you run off it, the pressure still stays at about a million bar Nick there has it setup on his GTi-R, runs water injection and two IC sprays and the water hoses out of it

Cheers

Ian

IWatkins

Adam,
Just saw your previous post. I would have to agree with your thoughts. I've run water injection for years now. The car is always mapped to a safe map *then* the water injection is switched on to add a further safety. OK, so I loose a few BHP (about 3) but is that really going to kill the experience ?

Cheers

Ian

Adam M

ian,

accept what you are saying re temperature rise on compression, it is the case, but the important thing is that energy is removed from the charge. If done after the burn it will reduce incylinder temps and egt, reducing det, and efficiency. If done during compression, it will reduce pre explosion temperature, meaning higher engine efficency.

depdending on which mechanism prevails (and I dont know which) it will either burn colder things, or colder burn hotter things, one yielding power, the other yielding safety, we dont disagree on that

I do want to ask you though, what is wrong with erl for water injection? I am not biased as I havent bought mine yet, but why do you not recommend them?

They do supply every single wrc team (except peugeot), who surely are not concerned about budget, just want the best. Is rice the reason you dont recommend them?

Mail me offline if you prefer.

Adam M

sorry ian but you are wrong.

given the amount of water entering the intake and the area i contact with the walls, I am sure there is plenty that survives right up until ignition as water.

On top of that, think about it.

If what you say is true, then there would be no point using it for det control, if it all evaporates first, then all of it would be for reducing inlet temps.

What youn also havent considered is that at higher pressure ie. 2 atmospheres at 1 bar, the boiling point of water is much much higher.

R19KET

Ian,

There's nothing wrong, or unreliable about the ERL pumps.

Apart from the odd problem associated with any electrical equipment, the only problems that have occured, have been where the pumps have been poorly mounted, and have been effected by water ingression. The instructions give recommendations on where to fit the pump, and why.

Richard Lamb has recently improved the water resistance of the product, so that even people who ignore his recommendations, won't have any problems.

Currently, the WRC teams from, Prodrive, Ford, Hyundai, Seat, and Skoda, all use the ERL system. I think it's unlikely they would, if the product was too weak, or unreliable !!!!

As for using a single pump, I guess it would depend on how you want the car set up. Personally, I think for "road" use, two pumps are better. It's very rare that both WI, and ICWS would both need to be on at the same time, unless the turbo, and or IC, are undersize for the boost being run. Running them both together, would just be a waste of water, and given that a combined WI/ICWS system would be using about 1/2lt per min', a real pain in the ar*e... On the track it's different of course.


Mark.

steve McCulloch

!

as Adam says I did'nt say water injection wont be needed - we will see on a few weeks of running it - I'll do what I'm told to do - but if the temps are low I wont bother!

As far as water spray goes - I'll do what I'm told to do!

All this stuff is far too technical for me - I'll listen to the informed people, not the ones that repeat back what the informed ones have said and make it look like they are so clever!

R19KET

Whether or not WI is needed, really depends on what you're looking for. Bob Rawle will easily be able to safely map your car without it, but, if you want more than he can safely give you, further mod's will be needed. One way to gain more power would be to fit a much larger turbo, but this would be VERY laggy. Another way would be to advance the ignition, but given the map will already be at it's max "safe" limit, the only way to do this, would be with the aid of WI.

Like I said, it depends on what you're trying to achieve,

Mark.

Adam M

Steve I will take taht as a dig at me

Cheers for that.

I dont pretend to be clever. I know I am clever everything I regurgitate, is stuff that I remember.

When I did my exmas for gcses, A levels and degree, all I was doing was regurgitating stuff I was told by teachers and professors.

Are you a pioneer of maths Steve? or did you pass your exams by regurgitating?

No one in this community has explained water injection to me by the way, I figured out how it works all by myself. I must be really clever.

steve McCulloch

edited



[This message has been edited by steve McCulloch (edited 12 July 2001).]

Big Mouth

.

[This message has been edited by Big Mouth (edited 11 July 2001).]

Adam M

I have had enough of this.
Really I have.

regardless of who tells you what, it takes a brain to understand what you are told, and a brain to question whether or not it is valid.

I am not prepared to do what I am told. I like to think for myself.

It takes trust in people to know who to believe and I am not rich enough to blow up my car in order to find out who is right or wrong.

I listen to those who have learned and decide from what I know myself from my degree in physics, and my job in cutting edge engine development, whether what they say sounds reasonable.

I wont be told by other small minded people that I cant think for myself. Especially those that decide to create a new identity just because they ahvent got the guts to say something under their own name.

Steve is playing (maybe not) and that is fine, I have met him and I know him, but to have other people jumping on the attack me bandwagon for the sake of it just ***** me off.

the beauty of a written reply is that none of you lot on here have to listen to me, you can just skip my posts. I dont give a ****.

If you dont want to hear what i have to say, then get the **** off my thread!

I started it because I dont know everything and wanted some opinions, in future, I will only ask the opinion of those respected friends that I clearly live my whole life by.

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 11 July 2001).]

spurner

On the topic of Water Injection, I was looking at getting Aquamist system 1s and have heard that as this set-up can only inject a set amount of water (it's not 3D mappable)that especially at lower rpm it can flood with too much water and that at high rpm there isn't enough, and as a result you can lose power down low, and increase the likelihood of detonation up top.

There seem to be a few people here using Water Injection set-ups? Has anyone lost power using this fixed injection method or had any problems as a result of it? Upgrading to the system 2s or an autronic ECU isn't really an option for me.

TIA

R19KET

Steve,

That's the right way to do it. See what results you get from the FMIC, and make a decision based on Bobs advice.

Big mouth, I know you have deleted your post, but I just wanted to say :P

Lighten up you guys. This is one of VERY few worth while, productive threads. Let's not turn it into a slanging match.

Mark.

MorayMackenzie

Adam,

I'm afraid I don't agree with you on one point... "the beauty of a written reply is that none of you lot on here have to listen to me, you can just skip my posts. I dont give a ****". At least one us has to read through most of what you clatter out on your keyboard in case you write something very naughty or very wrong... but then we have to moderate everyone else too.

I do believe you have been catching some real flak lately which is mostly undeserved, mostly.

I just want to say that, as someone who knows Adam personally, I can state that he is actually very bright and articulate. He tends to pick things up very quickly and makes his own mind up about things. This is good because it makes for hours of fun arguing over the most trivial details of pretty much anything simply for the sake of argument.


Big Mouth,

Shut up.

Moray

IWatkins

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by R19KET:
<B>Ian,
There's nothing wrong, or unreliable about the ERL pumps.[/quote]

I beg to differ. And so will a lot of other users, including the ones using the latest pumps. Basically, I've had problems, I've had enough, I've moved on.

Anyway, the make of the pump isn't important, it is whether it can do the job.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>As for using a single pump, I guess it would depend on how you want the car set up. Personally, I think for "road" use, two pumps are better.[/quote]

What I meant was one pump (if it is powerful enough to deal with it) and a pair of valves (ERL Manifold blocks) one for WI the other for WS. Have both of them separately controlled.

Cheers

Ian

IWatkins

Oops, double post.

[This message has been edited by IWatkins (edited 11 July 2001).]

R19KET

Ian,

Guess I've just been lucky for the last 18months, but then again, I took Richards advice, and didn't fit the pump behind the front bumper.

I'm sure that there are alternative pumps on the market, that will also serve the purpose.

I'm interested to know how the ERL jets work with your current pump. Because of the nature of the ERL pump, it's very economical with water, and most alternative pumps, would use about double the amount of water, for a given pressure, and jet size.

Mark.

steve McCulloch

Adam

Did'nt have the guts?

Hmmm, that was me just taking the mick - mosttimes I do sometimes I dont

Some people were just born to be hated I guess

I never enter into a slanging match - but its always amusing to see how people react to being provoked, despite the fact that they issue shed loads of abuse themselves

Back to the thread

Mark - yes I'll see what happens. Cant wait! - hows your engine coming along?

Bob Rawle

And skipping all the stuff that the thread was not about ...

Adam the Motec discussed will control water spray, the subject of our discussion was water injection which the model in question won't.

A good FMIC should not need water spray at all.

Following the "understand one thing b4 doing another" principle and since Steve is one of the few people who drives his car on the limit all the time (well mostly anyhow ... sorry Steve)and it seems to survive in his case its very important that each mod is fully utilised, therefore the approach is as suggested. (note the use of the word suggested)

Water injection will follow once the benefits of a FMIC are established fully. The condition of the car at that time will determine which water injection set up is required (it will be an ERL one though as I trust Richards judgement and advice in this area)

Oh and ERL do a fully 3d mappable system which works very well using their MF2 controller, thats what I would go for any time.



[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 11 July 2001).]