iain atkins

OK, heres the background: -

UK MY97

TD05FE @ 17psi
ITP160 fuel pump + fuel reg set @ 3.4bar atmospheric
De-cat
Pipercross induction (not the best i know)
Ported headers etc
4.45v @ the MAF (hot wire) @ high revs & boost
4.10v @ MAP sensor @ 17psi
Forge re-circ DV

The engine appears to be extremly quiet all the way through to 6,500 (part throttle etc) and then i get a green led on the knocklink, sometimes 2.

Full throttle from low revs in a high gear to around 5k - no activity (run out of road).

lower gears, rev thru in 2nd, get to 6,500 and red activity
rev thru in 3rd, get to 6,500 and red activity again (both @ full throttle)

I fitted the KL @ the weekend and am now rightly so, paranoid. Car has been running this set-up for quite a few months now, and there was no activity thru det-cans etc when setting up and randomly checking for audible det. Someone is currently borrowing my det cans atm

Later today i'm going to reduce boost to actuator pressure to see if i still get activity.

If it still does this then i guess its a case of looking for loose brackets, areas where there has been contact thru engine rocking etc, vibrating heat shields or some other resonating problem.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad that the KL has highlighted a potential problem - i'm just hoping its not det


Iain


[Edited by iain atkins - 1/14/2004 10:13:23 AM]

[Edited by iain atkins - 1/14/2004 12:31:35 PM]

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

might need a mappedable ecu.. sounds like fueling is probably off.

Do you have a monitor on the AFR?

I hate doing all these changed and letting the original ecu deal with it, I know you don;t have a huge amount of choice with the 97 ecu, but I think you would gain more with an aftermarket ecu with that set up than anything else.

imho

Simon

iain atkins

Simon,

I totally hear where youre coming from. I am planning on going the Link route at somepoint this year, funds permitting.

Fuelling is @ 0.9v on full boost, and the Air fuel guage confirms that side is perfectly ok.

I just need a secs monitor now to check timing etc.



Iain

AndrewC

The std ECU runs loads of timing at the top end, if its holding 17psi past 6000RPM then it's going to get sparkly unless you're taking measures to significantly reduce charge temp and/or run loads of octane booster.

Also IDCs on 380s are going to be getting pretty high at that boost/RPM.

IMHO of course.

Andrew...

iain atkins

Andrew

Thats for your input, this is my suspicion as well . It does indeed hold 17 past 6,000.

Uprated intercooler is next on my ever growing list .

Fuel wise i use Optimax



Iain

TopBanana

There may be another FMIC group buy coming along soon

nom

TBH, as long as the KnockLink is set to 'maximum sensitiviy', I would regard 2 green lights as nothing to worry about, especially if they are 'stable' (rather than silence & then suddenly blipping). Engines are noisier at high rpm, simple as that.

I have a log somewhere...


This is a log from a Link as info fed back to the ECU (so from the factory knock sensor rather than the one connected to the KnockLink). I'll explain through it...

As a scale, so as to match it to the KnockLink lights, 10 is approximately 1 green, 20 is 2 green, etc. It's not linear, by the way...

All is quiet up to ~4,500rpm - the point of maximum engine VE and the most that's most susceptible to knock - and there is indeed a minor knock incident there. Not because of the actual noise level, but because of the way that it presents itself - sudden & above the noise level around it. I removed a spot of advance here & it went...
Above 5,000rpm, things obviously are getting noisy! However, you can see that it's an overall increase & not a sudden 'pop' - it's simply the engine getting noisier at high rpm. Basically, there's one green light on at 6,000, 2 at 6,500... with no det!

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

a good idea would be to get some NF in their to be on the safe side or until you get the link

iain atkins

This is all very helpful, thanks lads , and thanks to the guys i have spoken to on the phone (Rich Wild, AndyF & Rich @ PS)

Just been out again to measure MAP voltages (to see if my boost gauge is under reading - thanks for the tip Rich ). Where i reach full boost (showing 17psi (or fractionally over)) the MAP sensor voltage was 4.10v, which i think would seem about right for that boost pressure - someone correct me if i'm wrong pls

Again this was done in 4th up to 5k with only the first green flickering. All is totally quiet when the car comes onto boost with no flickering whatsoever (just the dim power light)



Iain

AndrewC

From ready you initial description I thought that the 'big red' you were experiencing was a sudden flash rather than a steady buildup?

I've seens nom's graph before and it is a very useful example.

Interestingly fitting a catch tank seems to have quitened my engine down around 5-5.5K where I was seeing small spikes to ~45 in the link logs, first/second orange in the KL and very faint speckles in the Det Cans.

Andrew...

AndrewC

You could try upping the fuel pressure a tad to see if that helps.

Andrew...


[Edited by AndrewC - 1/14/2004 1:13:17 PM]

nom

A catch can could well be increasing the octane rating of the fuel (or rather stop the oil fumes from reducing it )

I'm confused as to when this red light activity comes on?

If you do a run in a high gear it's quiet, but if a low gear, it's noisy? Is that round the right way? If it is, then my guess would be overboost as the ECU isn't reacting fast enough - too quick to notice on a boost guage as well.
In which case the easiest fix might be a Dawes set to 17psi in parallel with the actuator in order to stop the overboost... but I might still be reading the 'signs' wrong

EMS

What Andrew states is right, your ignition is too much advanced for the boost you are running. On VF23 equiped MY98 I have to remove between 2 and 4 degrees of advance above 5500 RPM with the Unichip on 98 RON fuel. (it´s possible to add quite some advance at lower revs though!)

P.S. I always check on the German Autobahn under FULL load! The car could be O.K. in lower gears, but if you realy are pushing......

Mark.

nom

That's the wierd bit Mark - from what I can tell, it seems to be round the other way? As in ok in high gears, not in low...

John at J&S

Piston slap is more prevalent at lighter loads. Heavily loaded engines are quieter, until actual knock occurs.

iain atkins

It is a spike that occurs @ around 6,000 - 6,500. I can only test it in the lower gears etc because of the roads / speed limits etc.

1st gear = no big red
2nd gear = big red spike @ 6,500
3rd gear = big red spike @ 6,500
4th gear = no big red (only tested up to around 5,000)

Its not spiking to the red led @ lower revs WOT as where i would expect it to, just when i get towards 6,500.

All breathers are vented top a catch can etc.

Hope that clears things up a bit.


Iain

iain atkins

Boost control is via a dawes, and there is an FCD set so i can run this boost pressure (HKS one set to setting 10 - i.e. only raising the boost cut by a small amount)



Iain

nom

Ah.
Could simply be things are getting too much, then. TD05 pumping out too high temps, too much advance up there, to low octane... or more likely the usual combination of all

So... it's lower boost, get an FMIC, fit a water injection system, keep loading in the NF or steer clear of 6,00rpm

But it does most certainly sound like det - but the question is: how often did you go up to 6,500+ before you got the KL & 'tested' what was going on? Many others run this setup/boost, etc. & don't have a problem, so...?

Delboy2

I did a calibration comparison a while ago at work comparing 93-96 Map sensors to the newer version. The newer version 4.00v ~ 17.00 psig, 4.10v ~ 18 psig


Cheers

iain atkins

Cheers nom

I used to drive it pretty hard, and have done since September!!! I tested the setup with detcans when i first fitted the turbo etc and all was ok.



Iain

iain atkins

Cheers Delboy

EMS

I know, between 6200 and 6500 they are sensible to knock with the standard timing! In that region you have to pull timing if you want to keep it safe. It´s normally not mixture related, it should be rich enough.(even too rich perhaps) With the boost you use, you shouldn´t max out the injectors.

Mark.

[Edited by EMS - 1/14/2004 6:25:28 PM]

iain atkins

Mark

I take it you've encountered the same problem with an early car & TD05FE turbo. (originally the car had a TD04FE).

I'm gonna get some octane booster and lower the boost levels for the time being just to be ultra safe.

I have yet to test the car @ actuator pressure (10psi) to see if the activity stops.



Iain

iain atkins

I've been an idiot Mark.

I just looked back @ your post regarding your MY98 with the VF turbo.

What kind of advance does the standard ecu run in that rev range then?

Cheers



Iain

EMS

Ah, good question Iain!

I don't know exactly as it's not very important to me when I map an Unichip. In the midrange where the knock correction of the ECU is active, I monitor the KC value (and watch the Knock Link!). Above 5500 RPM I rely on the Knock Link (and/or det cans). If I remember correctly the timing is around 29 - 30 deg at 6000 and around 32 at 6500 RPM.

Mark.

iain atkins

So, is there a high possibility that i will have done irrepairable damage over the past couple of months?

Or is it a case of finding a cure then all will be ok? I feel so confused about this, as many people seem to run it no problems etc on other 97 / 98 cars



Iain

[Edited by iain atkins - 1/14/2004 8:46:30 PM]

John at J&S

I agree, it's prolly not piston slap at 6500 RPM, especially if it takes any time to reach that RPM. The cylinders become heated, increasing the tendency to knock.

AndrewC

As has been said earlier, you are pushing it running 1.2bar above 6000RPM on Std Injectors and Std TMIC with the OEM ECU (timing). It might be worth dropping Rich Wild a line, as he uses a FE TD05 with the OEM ECU and 380s, but with lots of cooling mods.

At high load over 6000RPM the std maps are running around 30-34degrees advance, compared with 23-26degrees that would be used in a mappable ECU.

Andrew...

iain atkins

Cheers then guys, thanks for your help

I am going to reduce the boost now and stock-up on some octane booster to be safe.

An uprated intercooler is coming next, along with the possibility of replacing the induction kit with the original air box + K&N panel filter.

BTW Andrew, did you get my e-mail?

Cheers



Iain

AndrewC

Ian,

Sort of, YHMB.

Andrew...