Requin

I've melted the pistons on my STi6 type RA,
I rolled out of gear from 120mph (ish) to 90mph and the engine died, tried to put into gear to start but engine was already dead.
( I was on a private road etc....)
garage say that rolling out of gear is "abusive" driving, as the car needs to remain in gear to keep turning, so they say I have no warranty.

Have been back and forth arguing this point now for 6 months and I'm getting nowhere. So am completely fed-up.

so

my options with them are:
new engine 4k ( free labour )
rebuild/new pistons 3.5k ( free labour )


Have I any other options ? Something that would make the cost worthwhile ?
eg. Bore the engine out for 2.2 ?

advTHANKSance

ps.
any garages with a decent offer welcome

harvey

iTrader: (48)

1) Do not use the garage that has not honoured your warranty for anything else. Surely if you have been shafted that is just common sense.
2) Read the terms of your warranty. If you were driving along and got the impression something might be wrong then going for neutral might be a wise move anyhow.
3) Regardless of the above, a car should not seize or run a piston just because you elect to select neutral at 120mph. How long were you in neutral.
4)Find a motor engineer or assessor who can independantly provide a report along these lines and comment on the failure. He will need to see the engine stripped.
5) Inspection could take place at the garage in question if the car and engine are still there but then get the car away from that garage.

Now if everything is as you describe and the above have been followed you go to the trading standards department at your local town hall and ask for advice. You may also wish to visit the Citizens Advice Bureau. Now the quality of help and advice of these two operations varies greatly across the country but you will probably end up instructing a solicitor who SPECIALISES in this sort of thing. Some solicitors will take it on a conditional fee basis (no win no pay) and there is also the possibility of of insuring against loosing.

All the time you are looking to sort it before it gets to court but be very careful about letting the original rebuild. Can they build Subaru engines? How many have they done?

For a monster build Roger Clark Motorsport. For something less exotic try API Engines or phone Mike at Scoobymania.
If you want to buy a 2.2 block contact me but the 2.2 route is not cheap and may not be your best option.

Hope this helps. Let me know how you get on.

On the face of it, sounds like the garage are taking the michael so stop p1ssing about.

The Fixer

When you do come to rebuild I have an STi V7 Short motor, block pistons, crank etc, all still assembled, done less than 10,000 KM. If youre interested in buying let me know by email (as profile)

Conrad

Requin

Cheers harvey,
thanks for the response,

To answer your Q's
-I was in neutral for , I'd say 30 seconds or so, maybe more, however long it takes roll from 120 ish to 80ish on a flat road.
It was at 80 I noticed the engine stall.
before that I noticed nothing, and was just slowing down after a quick blip of the throttle.

-The engine has already been stripped, and it's a REAL mess, looks like someone has been at it with a welder.

-The garage got an assessor in who basicly repeated what the garage said, plus with comments implying how stupid could I be not knowing that you must remain in a gear at all times, or this is what happens.

-I've got a guy lined up to check it out for me, but the car has been at the garage all along, the failed part probably long gone.

-What I fear is going to happen is that the failed part has gone, leaving "abusive" driving being the only explanation.

So I'm still going to have it checked out and get some legal advice,
but at the same time I'm looking into using another garage.

I'd rather put money in their pockets rather than these guys.

and maybe to use the opportunity to mod the car. :-)


thanks again.

nom

I thought that 'remaining in gear at all times' was only what you were meant to do to remain in control of the car, driving-test style? Or is this too confusing for the garage?
I think I'd follow Harvey's advice as close as possible here Sounds like the place(s) you've been dealing with so far are playing about.

Requin

The remain in gear thing came as a shock to me too,

They gave me a long spiel ( most of which I did'nt understand) about how there are sensors at the wheel and if the wheels say 120mph and the engine is idling this will kill the engine.

anyone else think this is bad news for an engine ?

SPEN555

How can you 'remaining in gear at all times' whenever you depress the clutch and change up or down you are not in gear?

Damian.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

"-The garage got an assessor in who basicly repeated what the garage said, plus with comments implying how stupid could I be not knowing that you must remain in a gear at all times, or this is what happens."

Sounds like one of their mates.

"They gave me a long spiel ( most of which I did'nt understand) about how there are sensors at the wheel and if the wheels say 120mph and the engine is idling this will kill the engine."

Sorry but it sounds like they are having you over with all this **** because that is what it is .

Just follow the step by step guide, do not get deflected and do it right.

So others can avoid a bad experience, what is the name and location of this garage.


[Edited by harvey - 11/26/2003 3:53:53 PM]

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Every RR run at PE I have seen do the power run in 4th up to peak power rpm then back off and dip the clutch. Wheel speed is around 120 mph with the engine idling away. I have seen this at least 50 times all to various scoobs. What they are stating is complete bollox, don't let them get away with it.

IMO engine braking with a closed throttle at high speeds does more damage to pistons than an idling engine at high speed, but what do I know, I've never sold a warrenty.

Requin

Thanks for all your help everyone,
but
I would rather wait until I've had my guy checkout what's left of the engine before saying these guys are screwing me around.

after all it's their livelyhood, and their business supports their family. and If they are right well....I'd look pretty nastey.

on the flipside I guess it's our money, and you guys deserve to know too.

but until I know for certain....
sorry,
I will say the garage is nowhere near anyone posting.

Requin

Jay m A

I had noticed before it died, that If I did put it in neutral at high speed after 40+ seconds the engine would stall and I'd have to bump it back on again.

This would happen nearly everytime, whereas the engine would idle at a stop for, well, for as long as there's fuel.
I knew this becuase I'd let it idle while the turbo etc. cooled.

Has anyone else noticed this ?

Butty

iTrader: (2)

It would be advisable to ask for a copy of the assessors report and state that you want all parts to be retained (in writing).
What they come back with may show if they are trying a fast one.

Nick

nom

Nope. But then I don't have a MAF
It does make sense, in a way, that there could be stalling problems if the engine is idling as the car is 'coasting' at 100mph+ as it must do rather strange things to the MAF readings. However, an engine at idle is unlikely to be stressed to breaking point!
Using the engine for breaking from high rpm AFAIK puts about as higher stress on the rods as possible, though, as the 'extension'/throw isn't cushioned by anything (compressed air). But you weren't doing that. And anyway, the engine should be able to cope with this, unless there's a design fault. As it should be able to cope with coasting. Unless there's a design fault.
Basically, it's pretty much impossible to come at this from any angle which makes it your fault IMHO.

caz1562

I had my engine fail in August this year. Managed to do a full strip-down & rebuild in the comfort of my own garage at home. Car has now covered 930 miles since the rebuild & is going really well indeed.

I spent around £3.5k on my parts & services but have strengthened the bottom end with uprated bearings & big ends, forged rods & pistons, uprated oil & fuel pumps, lightened flywheel & paddle clutch, new boost gauge and added oil temp & pressure gauges, pod for classic Impreza, Knocklink & AFR meter, white dial dash, speed de-restrictor, standard Jap ECU with Scoobyecu chip already fitted, lightened pulleywheels, engine machine work, gaskets & oils. You can have a squint at my website for all the pic's progress & guide to whats went on.

My website

The prices you've been quoted sound reasonable but I considered repairing the piston & affected cylinder but when I was in that far I was as well to do the work I done for piece of mind. I also thought of buying a 2nd hand engine but its a big chance to take as you do not know the engines history. Now I have an exact history of mine so hope to keep the car for the next 3-4 years now.

JamesS

As has been stated above, putting the engine into neutral at any speed may cause the calibration to learn some odd values - hence the stall BUT it will in no way harm the engine. MAF readings would be the readings at idle, road speed does not matter.

Requin

Thx
for confirming that rolling is'nt bad for the engine.
I don't know too much about it, and I nobody I know does either.

It was a habit of mine on motorways to roll from high speed down,
and the garage were quite convincing that rolling wuold confuse the ECU into damaging , or in my case comlpetely frying 2 pistons and a cylinder

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Requin YHM

dela

a slight tangent, and maybe the answer is blindingly obvious, but if you should not be using the engine to brake from high speeds, whats the alternative? (I'm keen to preserve my engine for as long as possible, whilst still enjoying the performance)

Obviously its the brake pedal, but surely the engine is going through the same stresses?

Say I'm cruising along at Bruntingthorpe at 145mph, and I know the end is near but don't want to fry my brakes hauling it down to 60mph at the last minute, what should I be doing?

Maybe a silly question, so I'm anticipating a silly answer

cheers,
dela

Adam M

I do remember bob discussing the merits of putting in the clutch on overrun at high rpm. It was discussed on the number 3 big end bearing thread.

It will not be responsible for the death of your negine for the reasons stated above.

I would go along with what harvey says, sounds like you have an argument there.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

It's a very old fashioned idea to use the gearbox for engine braking [ Breaking LOL] Gearboxes and engines are MUCH more expensive than pads and discs. And the 'old' way was devised when brakes were suspect and engines were old plonkers that would take the strain.

David API

Leslie

Could someone explain how having the engine idling at a speed of 120 mph can damage the engine any more than if the car is standing still. Just can't see it! Have you got a ram air intake?

Les

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Guys, tenuous though it is l offer the following:

At high engine speed the oil and water pumps are running at full [ish] speed and the recirculation is many times per minute.

Allow the engine to suddenly idle and the recirculation drops immediately to the lowest possible amount. The engine can possibly suffer from heat soak as the water is not now going through the rad at anything like the previous rate and through the heat soak the block expands the pistons expand and clonk they grab each other in passing.

As I said it is tenuous and improbable but not beyond the complete bounds of possibility.

I still think that there is more afoot here and I suspect that the suppliers are not being totally truthful.

David API Engines

Mike Tuckwood

David, that stretches "tenuous past known limits.

The tech reason given by whoever the garage is "unbelievable" if we have heard the full vesion of it.

Even swittching the engine off and getting out shouldn't cause that kind of failure. Was there any warning of overheat (water temp off the scale)? I doubt it.

Hard to tell of course without seeing the car but just de-selecting gear and a cruise down, simply cannot be the 'cause' of the failure?


Mike
Scooby Mania

Requin

When it happened there was no warning, no loss of power or anything.
I did'nt notice the temp gauge.

I simply put the car out of gear to lose some speed,
noticed the engine had stopped,
tentatively brought the clutch back out to start it.

I then noticed as I was slowly bringing the clutch out something was'nt right.
pushed it back in, tried again, but the clutch did'nt feel "right", and seemed to be stopping the car rather than starting the engine ( if you get what I mean ).
So left the car to roll to a stop.


:-)I rang the RAC and told them I'll need a tow truck,
The guy said no, and was adamant he could get it going, but....

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Requin : You are being shafted so do something about it instead of being timid if what you have told us up to now is accurate and I have no reason to believe it is not. You guys in Wales must have good CABs or Trading Standards surely?

CraigH

Mike,

If requin had indeed switched the car off and get out at 90mph, I think a broken engine would be the least of his worries

Requin,

Is the warranty by the garage or an independant, like Warranty Holdings? The response you've had is the std line - either that or the car has been run low on oil at sometime in it's life.

Get your own assessor, get a solicitor and if that doesn't change their mind, sue them.

Adam M

Mike, I don't believe that stretches tenuous past known limits.

what was said was true, the oil pump does drop to about 2 bar which is idle pressure. This will be fine for the big ends, but engines with oil squirters rely on high pressure to open the jets top cool the piston which will still be hot from a spirited cruise.

In engines without oil squirters, rely on splash to cool the bottom of the pistons and the cylinder walls, and this will also be reduced at idle. The oil itself has many cooling properties as well as friction rducing properties, and will impart its heat to the water cooling system by way of the standard heat exchanger.

The water system as mentioned is driven by engine speed and its flow will be reduced when at idle, there is no doubt that the heat in the engine will be much greater when cruising at 120mph as this requires more work to be done by the engine to battle the higher air and rolling resistance. Since the engine efficiency is at best the same as at low output, if more work is being done by the engine then more heat is being wasted. That heat has to be transported out of the engine by both the lubrication and cooling system, even after the engine is left to idle.

I don't think it is an excuse for your car failing, but it would be foolish to assume it doesn't stretch the limits of the standard oil and water system.

Mitch C

iTrader: (1)

WTF is rolling out of gear? I just want to know, so I don't do it when I get one....

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Requin:
How about an update?

beryllium

Hi Requin
if you have a STI 6 RA,you have the DCCD.
may be you can answer to Andy F. question:
where the electrical connector comes through the casing on a Ph2 box ? On the Ph1 it is through the 4 bolt top plate but Ph2 does not have this plate .
i purchased a phase 1 DCCD to Andy and don't know where to cross the phase 2 casing with the wiring harness.
many thanks

charly