more low down torque
28 September 1999, 10:39 PM
#1
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I have a 1993 wrx jap import I have had one or to mods done already the usual exhaust down pipe air filter and p.e upgrade.When it came back from p.e it had 276bhp with about 270 ft of torque at just under 4000 revs I was pleased with this and the car pulled strong.I then had a front mounted intercooler fitted which was recomended to me by tdi I then took the car back to p.e and it then came back with 304bhp with 281 ft of torque but at 4500 revs,although I am happy with the power increase the car now seems to have nothing then a sudden surge of power I wish I had more low down torque as the car seemed faster driving on the road with the first setup.Could anyone recomend any mods that may give me a better torque curve its been suggested that the manifold to manifold equal length pipes may help any ideas????????.
thanks lee
thanks lee
29 September 1999, 12:43 AM
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I am also incontact with someone in australier who thinks that my cams are large enough and would not benefit from others he suggests turning my inlets around ,will my standard ones do this or would I have to buy others, other than that to sell my front mounted intercooler and buy another one any offers???????.Any way my d/v is fitted right after the turbo is this in the best place.Must admit Im tempted with the stroker kit.
thanks lee
thanks lee
29 September 1999, 09:01 AM
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Cheers j for the useful imformation ,yes by the way I did mean equal length headers and the turbo is a standard unit that was fitted to the wrx in this year.Any suggestions on who to do the engine work and approx how much will the stroker kit cost although this may be to much.
29 September 1999, 09:06 AM
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What you have found is exactly why most people dont fit the front mounted intercooler TURBO LAG!
You would have been far better having a good quality charge cooler fitted that would have allowed you to keep the short inlet tract as oppose to moving the intercooler and increasing the length of the turbo pipework.
Darren
You would have been far better having a good quality charge cooler fitted that would have allowed you to keep the short inlet tract as oppose to moving the intercooler and increasing the length of the turbo pipework.
Darren
29 September 1999, 09:46 AM
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Hi y'all...
First off... My pleasure for the info...
The headers will help.. they flow better. standard ones are to restrictive. But bhp-for-pound might be a little high
Darren - Dont even get me started on the subject of "charge coolers"
Front I/C's will increase lag, one solution is to fit a tubular front entry manifold, but you can only do this if you havent got aircon (have to move the alternator where the aircon pump is, etc). This is bloody expensive. To be honest, with any major engine mod, I find you have to alter your driving style. To minimise lag, it just means you have to keep the car "on the boil" more.... UK cars will beat you upto 4000'ish revs...then you should just pull away (in theory)
Where is the BOV/DV fitted on the kit ?
As for thw work, In theory any engine machine shop should be able to do the work (the principles being used are the same for any engine). They will need a flow bench, surface grinders, etc.... Ideally an engine dyno. The hardest thing will be finding one that knows which cams, valves, springs, lifters, etc. to use. But if you supply them, then it should be easy for them.
Chances are I would suggest Pete at C&K (Subaru Manchester), he will be a good starting point.
I know of two companies that offer the 2.2 Stroker, HKS and JUN.. They are a similar price... but you will be looking at possibly 5K by the time you have the kit and the engine work.
Taking the engine out isnt easy..you will be amased at the amount of stuff you have to take off first..
J. (MiB)
First off... My pleasure for the info...
The headers will help.. they flow better. standard ones are to restrictive. But bhp-for-pound might be a little high
Darren - Dont even get me started on the subject of "charge coolers"
Front I/C's will increase lag, one solution is to fit a tubular front entry manifold, but you can only do this if you havent got aircon (have to move the alternator where the aircon pump is, etc). This is bloody expensive. To be honest, with any major engine mod, I find you have to alter your driving style. To minimise lag, it just means you have to keep the car "on the boil" more.... UK cars will beat you upto 4000'ish revs...then you should just pull away (in theory)
Where is the BOV/DV fitted on the kit ?
As for thw work, In theory any engine machine shop should be able to do the work (the principles being used are the same for any engine). They will need a flow bench, surface grinders, etc.... Ideally an engine dyno. The hardest thing will be finding one that knows which cams, valves, springs, lifters, etc. to use. But if you supply them, then it should be easy for them.
Chances are I would suggest Pete at C&K (Subaru Manchester), he will be a good starting point.
I know of two companies that offer the 2.2 Stroker, HKS and JUN.. They are a similar price... but you will be looking at possibly 5K by the time you have the kit and the engine work.
Taking the engine out isnt easy..you will be amased at the amount of stuff you have to take off first..
J. (MiB)
29 September 1999, 12:00 PM
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Hi there,
For low down torque...you need to think of the car as NA. And apply those tuning techniques to the engine. (again with most my statements this is a very simplitist approach)
So... You need to look at gas flowing, porting, cams, valve job (I'd go for a 3 angle job).
I assume you mean equal length exhaust headers ?
You could consider upping the compression, but will have to lower the boost on the turbo (otherwise the total combined pressure might/will blow your engine). Did you tell PE that you want low down power ? what turbo have you got fitted ? Is it uprated ?
The reason its shifted up by 500rpm is due to the lag (extra pipe work). what boost are you running ?
Cheers,
J.
another way to obtain more torque low down in to fit a stroker kit which will up the capacity to 2.2 Litres.
For low down torque...you need to think of the car as NA. And apply those tuning techniques to the engine. (again with most my statements this is a very simplitist approach)
So... You need to look at gas flowing, porting, cams, valve job (I'd go for a 3 angle job).
I assume you mean equal length exhaust headers ?
You could consider upping the compression, but will have to lower the boost on the turbo (otherwise the total combined pressure might/will blow your engine). Did you tell PE that you want low down power ? what turbo have you got fitted ? Is it uprated ?
The reason its shifted up by 500rpm is due to the lag (extra pipe work). what boost are you running ?
Cheers,
J.
another way to obtain more torque low down in to fit a stroker kit which will up the capacity to 2.2 Litres.
29 September 1999, 01:06 PM
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Hi again.
What do you mean by your "inlet" and turning it around ?
Yours in the 93 WRX ? you have different cams to the UK cars... a bit more wilder....you can go even more (272, 10.2)... but it will alter/ruin your smoothness.
Flowing, and porting will help. So will a valve job... basically to get everything flowing and smooth/polished as you can... get your ports matched... and possibly up the compression, this will also over come lag alittle (but like I said before - watch the total compression ratio)!! (Metal head gaskets required)
I am going down the front I/C way...and to make it even worse a new turbo... (floor it...wait 10 mins...then vrooooom!!). But I know I will be going internal over winter/next year. The other trick is to fit NOS. You set up with a 25 or 50 nozzle so that it comes in from about 2500-3000 rpm and cuts out when the turbo starts to come in. NOS systems are now microprocessor controlled and can virtually eliminate lag
I think I'll go down the stroker route.. ditch my valves and cams (Sti dont need converting to under bucket shims)...
Not sure about machining the heads so the cams will fit...will need to check.
you might want to check the injectors... UK cars flow about 450cc/min (watch your duty cycle), uprated fuel line/pump?
A lightened flywheel will reduce lag a bit....Depends on how far you want to go ? 450? 500 bhp ?
Just to recap... It all depends what you want from your car ? The real big BHP cars have crap low down power/response... then bang it suddenly comes on... The cars that have low down/nippy response dont have tremendous top end power... There has to be a sacrifice somewhere.
Think of it like this..you have Point A and Point B which slide up and down the power/responsiveness scale of the car. The points are a fixed distance away from each other.... Therefore you slide A to the left to make the car more reactive...and B moves down too, losing the top end... you move B to the right to get better top end and A moves up too, losing the bottom end.
The trick is to widen the two points, this is where going internal/stroker kit/cams/porting will help.
J.
ps - DV's should be mounted as close to the turbo as possible (heat permitting)
pss - I assume that with going to TDI, its a HKS I/C, they are virtually the best (best core deisgn, and one of the lowest pressure drop cores). Scoobs where never decided for front I/C's (unless you have the front entry manifold) How much for the I/C? lol
psps - I/C piping plays a very important part... you have to get the right size, or lag is reeeeeeaaaaaal bad!!
[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 29-09-1999).]
[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 29-09-1999).]
What do you mean by your "inlet" and turning it around ?
Yours in the 93 WRX ? you have different cams to the UK cars... a bit more wilder....you can go even more (272, 10.2)... but it will alter/ruin your smoothness.
Flowing, and porting will help. So will a valve job... basically to get everything flowing and smooth/polished as you can... get your ports matched... and possibly up the compression, this will also over come lag alittle (but like I said before - watch the total compression ratio)!! (Metal head gaskets required)
I am going down the front I/C way...and to make it even worse a new turbo... (floor it...wait 10 mins...then vrooooom!!). But I know I will be going internal over winter/next year. The other trick is to fit NOS. You set up with a 25 or 50 nozzle so that it comes in from about 2500-3000 rpm and cuts out when the turbo starts to come in. NOS systems are now microprocessor controlled and can virtually eliminate lag
I think I'll go down the stroker route.. ditch my valves and cams (Sti dont need converting to under bucket shims)...
Not sure about machining the heads so the cams will fit...will need to check.
you might want to check the injectors... UK cars flow about 450cc/min (watch your duty cycle), uprated fuel line/pump?
A lightened flywheel will reduce lag a bit....Depends on how far you want to go ? 450? 500 bhp ?
Just to recap... It all depends what you want from your car ? The real big BHP cars have crap low down power/response... then bang it suddenly comes on... The cars that have low down/nippy response dont have tremendous top end power... There has to be a sacrifice somewhere.
Think of it like this..you have Point A and Point B which slide up and down the power/responsiveness scale of the car. The points are a fixed distance away from each other.... Therefore you slide A to the left to make the car more reactive...and B moves down too, losing the top end... you move B to the right to get better top end and A moves up too, losing the bottom end.
The trick is to widen the two points, this is where going internal/stroker kit/cams/porting will help.
J.
ps - DV's should be mounted as close to the turbo as possible (heat permitting)
pss - I assume that with going to TDI, its a HKS I/C, they are virtually the best (best core deisgn, and one of the lowest pressure drop cores). Scoobs where never decided for front I/C's (unless you have the front entry manifold) How much for the I/C? lol
psps - I/C piping plays a very important part... you have to get the right size, or lag is reeeeeeaaaaaal bad!!
[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 29-09-1999).]
[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 29-09-1999).]
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29 September 1999, 06:38 PM
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J
the i/c is a hks one I am using the pipes that came with the kit so I assume these are the right diameter ones.Who do I see about the front tubular front inlet manifolds or do you modify your own.I would like to know abit more about the nos kit who do I see for this I would find this interesting even if I decided not to use it I think I may go the same route as you with the stroker kit though. By the way what car do you have and what mods have you made so far.Good luck fitting the front mount hope it goes on esier than mine many hours with the air saw although the kit was never designed for the ealier wrx,s.If I decide to sell the i/c for another one it has been suggested that an uprated standard position one would be better for me would you be interested in it make me an offer its only a week old!.
thanks lee
p.s what about the fly wheel it may reduce lag but what effects on torque and tickover.
And also what about the injectors do you think these may need looking at as well as I have seen some dyno runs with the front mount and I often see them running different injectors 555c replacement items.
thanks lee
the i/c is a hks one I am using the pipes that came with the kit so I assume these are the right diameter ones.Who do I see about the front tubular front inlet manifolds or do you modify your own.I would like to know abit more about the nos kit who do I see for this I would find this interesting even if I decided not to use it I think I may go the same route as you with the stroker kit though. By the way what car do you have and what mods have you made so far.Good luck fitting the front mount hope it goes on esier than mine many hours with the air saw although the kit was never designed for the ealier wrx,s.If I decide to sell the i/c for another one it has been suggested that an uprated standard position one would be better for me would you be interested in it make me an offer its only a week old!.
thanks lee
p.s what about the fly wheel it may reduce lag but what effects on torque and tickover.
And also what about the injectors do you think these may need looking at as well as I have seen some dyno runs with the front mount and I often see them running different injectors 555c replacement items.
thanks lee
29 September 1999, 06:40 PM
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AndyP...
I had considered one.. check with the webmaster....*grins - we discussed it a while back* But it ***** ya turbo... blows the fins off your turbine wheel.
If I knew my turbo would survive... then boy-oh-boy I'd fit one...
I had thought about doing everything in one go... but decided to "stage" my approach to tuning.... I still havent fully decided when to go internal... I'm planning on storing the car over winter... so I might do it then, and take my time working on the engine... Knowing me something else will come up and I wont get around to it. *ho hum*
J.
ps - Oops... Never saw Lee's post.... The HKS kit doesnt fit newer models either... its needs modding for 98- years too i believe.. The piping is fine on the kit. The reason I mentioned size (oooerrr- calm down Penni) was that a few people make their own kits, buying a core from one place, having the piping custom made - Some beleive the larger the better - less restriction, more air flow, etc (refering to the pipe work and not the core)... But that isnt the case.
I would suggest you had a custom tubular manifold made (just like the WRC Car - cool). You need to find a supplier who deals with Prodrive. Or speak to a company who specialises in fabrication/pipe work (speak to Pete at Scoobysport and enquire if H&S can make one). Have the flanges laser cut and it polishes inside. Just remember to get the capacity on the new one the same as the old one (virtually) and balanced. I would be interested if the price is right...*oh bugger I've got aircon*
My original intercooler (sti) is quite effecient, but I've got it set into the back of my mind to go for a front one.. chances are I will regret it... but you have to try these things.. (yes I'm a sado - lol)
I think your injectors will be fine for now... If I were to upgrade I'd go for 550cc ones.... But you need to be pushing high BHP for that (and ****e economy)
I would take the I/C off you... but mines being shipped at the moment. Who knows... I might change the core and use a HKS one.... have to wait and see.
I drive a humble STi IV.
The flywheel will reduce lag... you might notice a slightly lumpier tickover...the lost mass wont be smoothing it out as much. Torque will be ok/improved... (depends at what instant you look at it)
To be honest I wouldnt consider a new inlet manifold yet.. unless you want to stick with the front intercooler. If you do then great, keep the HKS core and alter the pipe work. Its a bugger the turbo outlet points to the right....
My postings are getting bloody longer and longer...
Can I go now ? *please*
[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 29-09-1999).]
I had considered one.. check with the webmaster....*grins - we discussed it a while back* But it ***** ya turbo... blows the fins off your turbine wheel.
If I knew my turbo would survive... then boy-oh-boy I'd fit one...
I had thought about doing everything in one go... but decided to "stage" my approach to tuning.... I still havent fully decided when to go internal... I'm planning on storing the car over winter... so I might do it then, and take my time working on the engine... Knowing me something else will come up and I wont get around to it. *ho hum*
J.
ps - Oops... Never saw Lee's post.... The HKS kit doesnt fit newer models either... its needs modding for 98- years too i believe.. The piping is fine on the kit. The reason I mentioned size (oooerrr- calm down Penni) was that a few people make their own kits, buying a core from one place, having the piping custom made - Some beleive the larger the better - less restriction, more air flow, etc (refering to the pipe work and not the core)... But that isnt the case.
I would suggest you had a custom tubular manifold made (just like the WRC Car - cool). You need to find a supplier who deals with Prodrive. Or speak to a company who specialises in fabrication/pipe work (speak to Pete at Scoobysport and enquire if H&S can make one). Have the flanges laser cut and it polishes inside. Just remember to get the capacity on the new one the same as the old one (virtually) and balanced. I would be interested if the price is right...*oh bugger I've got aircon*
My original intercooler (sti) is quite effecient, but I've got it set into the back of my mind to go for a front one.. chances are I will regret it... but you have to try these things.. (yes I'm a sado - lol)
I think your injectors will be fine for now... If I were to upgrade I'd go for 550cc ones.... But you need to be pushing high BHP for that (and ****e economy)
I would take the I/C off you... but mines being shipped at the moment. Who knows... I might change the core and use a HKS one.... have to wait and see.
I drive a humble STi IV.
The flywheel will reduce lag... you might notice a slightly lumpier tickover...the lost mass wont be smoothing it out as much. Torque will be ok/improved... (depends at what instant you look at it)
To be honest I wouldnt consider a new inlet manifold yet.. unless you want to stick with the front intercooler. If you do then great, keep the HKS core and alter the pipe work. Its a bugger the turbo outlet points to the right....
My postings are getting bloody longer and longer...
Can I go now ? *please*
[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 29-09-1999).]
29 September 1999, 07:12 PM
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Thanks j
I,m sorry I keep going on but I love picking other peoples brains.Good to have you there you always seem to be online.I am enjoying seeing the scooby cossy war unroll very funny.
lee
I,m sorry I keep going on but I love picking other peoples brains.Good to have you there you always seem to be online.I am enjoying seeing the scooby cossy war unroll very funny.
lee
29 September 1999, 07:26 PM
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Hi Lee...
Glad I can help... but I'm no expert on Scoobs...so dont take my word as gospel... I am always open to correction and improvements...
I like to ask questions..... but no one bloody answers (come on Penni... just say yes) lol
I've never considered a Cossie... had a few vauxhalls (inc 4x4 6 speed 300bhp Cav - nice car to cruise in - large injectors, new ECU, charge cooler, etc)
I have so many things to read through and check online it seems like I'm on here for hours... Oh I am.... how sad!!
Anyone fancy meeting up ? game of pool ? pub ?
J.
ps - doesnt help with my girlfriend living 100's of miles away
Glad I can help... but I'm no expert on Scoobs...so dont take my word as gospel... I am always open to correction and improvements...
I like to ask questions..... but no one bloody answers (come on Penni... just say yes) lol
I've never considered a Cossie... had a few vauxhalls (inc 4x4 6 speed 300bhp Cav - nice car to cruise in - large injectors, new ECU, charge cooler, etc)
I have so many things to read through and check online it seems like I'm on here for hours... Oh I am.... how sad!!
Anyone fancy meeting up ? game of pool ? pub ?
J.
ps - doesnt help with my girlfriend living 100's of miles away
30 September 1999, 09:33 AM
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Howdy again...
Been thinking..
Instead of a new tubular manifold.... just reverse your standard one.... there might be a little machining (to match up the ports), but it should fit.
The problem is routing the new front facing intake pipe to the intercooler - The alternator is in the way. Lose the aircon..move the alternator where the aircon pump is. That will route half the I/C pipework.
Then... Rotate the turbo around.... so that the intake outlet points forward and not to the passenger side.... run the pipe work from there under the rotated manifold (need to relocate the power steering reservoir) where the pipe work from the airfilter goes, and to the I/B.
The airfilter has new pipework since the connection onto the turbo is pointing to the drivers innerwing (towards the strut mount).
You will need a new exhaust manifold and down pipe.... This setup is used by the WRC (roughly).
Shouldnt be to bad to do...*starts thinking*
Should be quite need.
J.
Been thinking..
Instead of a new tubular manifold.... just reverse your standard one.... there might be a little machining (to match up the ports), but it should fit.
The problem is routing the new front facing intake pipe to the intercooler - The alternator is in the way. Lose the aircon..move the alternator where the aircon pump is. That will route half the I/C pipework.
Then... Rotate the turbo around.... so that the intake outlet points forward and not to the passenger side.... run the pipe work from there under the rotated manifold (need to relocate the power steering reservoir) where the pipe work from the airfilter goes, and to the I/B.
The airfilter has new pipework since the connection onto the turbo is pointing to the drivers innerwing (towards the strut mount).
You will need a new exhaust manifold and down pipe.... This setup is used by the WRC (roughly).
Shouldnt be to bad to do...*starts thinking*
Should be quite need.
J.
30 September 1999, 08:33 PM
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J
One step ahead of you already thought of that the basic ideas we had are the same but what I was thinking of was getting a second hand inlet manifold(already sort)then blanking off where the throttle body is now then machineing a new mounting and welding it to the front of the plenum (already sorted the welding)thus being able to leave power steering alone and not needing to re rout any pipeing.By the way what is the module thingy(tech term)bolted to the right rear side of the inle manifold is it something to do with the cold start????Any way then I was going to carry on the same way as you regards the turbo although with the lag I hope to save I may get another turbo.Hopefully start it next week let you know how I get on.
lee
One step ahead of you already thought of that the basic ideas we had are the same but what I was thinking of was getting a second hand inlet manifold(already sort)then blanking off where the throttle body is now then machineing a new mounting and welding it to the front of the plenum (already sorted the welding)thus being able to leave power steering alone and not needing to re rout any pipeing.By the way what is the module thingy(tech term)bolted to the right rear side of the inle manifold is it something to do with the cold start????Any way then I was going to carry on the same way as you regards the turbo although with the lag I hope to save I may get another turbo.Hopefully start it next week let you know how I get on.
lee
30 September 1999, 10:43 PM
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Howdy...
Why go to all the trouble of welding....just reverse the manifold...looks neater..
You dont have to move the power steering pump... that idea was one of many...
If you have a front facing throttle inlet... how do you route the intake pipe over the alternator to the I/C ?
I'm still waiting for the bloody kit to arrive...
Nearly got involved in doing a head job for a mate on his Triumph V8... now that rumbles....complete with holey filter and X exhaust... bit of a beast....
But I aint got time to be going and removing one of the heads...
But I did tell him it was the head gasket...and that the heads might need skimming.
J.
Why go to all the trouble of welding....just reverse the manifold...looks neater..
You dont have to move the power steering pump... that idea was one of many...
If you have a front facing throttle inlet... how do you route the intake pipe over the alternator to the I/C ?
I'm still waiting for the bloody kit to arrive...
Nearly got involved in doing a head job for a mate on his Triumph V8... now that rumbles....complete with holey filter and X exhaust... bit of a beast....
But I aint got time to be going and removing one of the heads...
But I did tell him it was the head gasket...and that the heads might need skimming.
J.
30 September 1999, 11:04 PM
#17
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Lee.R,
The "module thingy" is the air idle valve. Its basically a rotary valve (256 steps) that is indexed by the ecu to allow air past the turbo and throttle body and directly into the inlet manifold in order to maintain the correct idle mixture and revs..
The "module thingy" is the air idle valve. Its basically a rotary valve (256 steps) that is indexed by the ecu to allow air past the turbo and throttle body and directly into the inlet manifold in order to maintain the correct idle mixture and revs..
30 September 1999, 11:17 PM
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Eh..oh..
Sorry... missed that bit...
Is there anyway of keeping the previous post visable while you type a reply ?
Bit of info for you...If you find you have a rough idle... check for leaks on the manifold..if its not that...then chances are its the idle sensor...
Thanks Bob
J.
Sorry... missed that bit...
Is there anyway of keeping the previous post visable while you type a reply ?
Bit of info for you...If you find you have a rough idle... check for leaks on the manifold..if its not that...then chances are its the idle sensor...
Thanks Bob
J.
01 October 1999, 12:18 AM
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Interesting..I just popped up there to have a looksie at some BPM kit..ended up being shown round, having a chat about chipping, looking at (blown) engines etc etc.
Really appreciated Pete taking time out for that.
Really appreciated Pete taking time out for that.
01 October 1999, 09:06 AM
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Thanks for the info lads
J if I reversed the inlets then I would have to move the power steering because the air idle valve would be where the power steering pump is also I would have to do alot of rewiring and plumbing to get everything to fit.I also agree with you as regards the alternater I would put it where the a/c is and ditch the a/c pump use it very rarely with our wheather any way.
lee
J if I reversed the inlets then I would have to move the power steering because the air idle valve would be where the power steering pump is also I would have to do alot of rewiring and plumbing to get everything to fit.I also agree with you as regards the alternater I would put it where the a/c is and ditch the a/c pump use it very rarely with our wheather any way.
lee
01 October 1999, 09:57 AM
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Lee.R
Yep... There will be some rejigging.... and the sensor will be in the way...although you can relocate it.
Building a front mount manifold would be quite easy for an engineering firm. Work like this can be quite cheap... There are loads of little very good companies around... Theres a race engineering company in Derby whos real cheap.... good quality...take pride in there work..... Why pay the huge amounts demanded by well known companies..when these smaller ones probably do a better job for half the price ?
J.
ps - C&K might have have done one...and might know there stuff... but they never have time to talk or never phone you back...
Yep... There will be some rejigging.... and the sensor will be in the way...although you can relocate it.
Building a front mount manifold would be quite easy for an engineering firm. Work like this can be quite cheap... There are loads of little very good companies around... Theres a race engineering company in Derby whos real cheap.... good quality...take pride in there work..... Why pay the huge amounts demanded by well known companies..when these smaller ones probably do a better job for half the price ?
J.
ps - C&K might have have done one...and might know there stuff... but they never have time to talk or never phone you back...
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