ZIPPY

Question.

If the PPP makes 1.2 bar boost on an MY02 with only a centre De-cat and back box, how come the car doesnt set alight the up and downpipe cats, but i'm told if i have ECUTEK (Map2)upload i need a complete de-cat otherwise my cats will melt.

Why cant anybody replicate the PPP Ecu which can produce the extra BHP even with the cats still in place.
Surely if Prodrive can perform the 30 second flash upgrade to standard Ecu's to give them the required new files why cant anybody else.
All i hear is sorry sir ALL the cats must be off the car to give you what you want.
What if i dont want 290-300 BHP just some more torque and say 265bhp with the PPP type kick in the back, but not at £1600 when the only part i need is the Ecu.(Which is mine with a file upload)

The ECUTEK looked promising but not at the cost of having then to change additional exhaust pipes boost solenoids and then knock sensors.I've driven a MY02 with the stage 1 ECUTEK and it was pants compared to my car, and at £600 you cant justify the power gains.

So at the end of my moan why cant i have the same type of upload that Prodrive use without the need to change the 2 front cats.


Zippy.

Ru$$Rip

BTTT For a a bloody good question!

WREXY

They don't melt on the MY99/00 cars. I have my standard cat and a Tek 3. Mine hasn't melted. Are they that different on the new age cars then?

Cheers,

Wrexy.

Edcase

Zippy - I thought people did offer an ecutek remap for decat centre and rear that produces about 265bhp? Stan Palmer etc?

midlife-crisis-scooby

Edcase

I had a ECU remap from Ian Armstrong at Stan Palmers in Carlisle on My MYO2 with TSL centre pipe and Magnex rear box...

I've now had a total de-cat from Stan Palmer (via Haywood and Scott) which necessitaes an re-map again.

This is a complex subject...for a novice like me !!

Try the ecutek forum or the latest discussion in the cumbrian scoobs meet in the northern section whre John Banks has a very cogent post.

Midlife...

midlife-crisis-scooby

Zippy (not edcase, sorry)

Here's John Banks (GURU !!) about remaps for fugly's

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=200270&Page=6

Hope it helps !!

Midlife....

midlife-crisis-scooby

Zippy

Here's the EcuTek Forum site, it should be clicky but I'm not always that good at typing..

http://forum.ecutek.com/default.asp

Midlife...

john banks

Stephen Done has already replied to a similar question on the Ecutek forum.

The technicality of it is that you cannot run as high EGTs when you have an uppipe cat in particular in the system, if you do then you can set it on fire and fragment it into your turbo. EGTs tend to go up with lean mixtures and higher boost. They tend to go down with more ignition timing. Unfortunately the cats often limit the timing because of pollution of the fresh charge during cam overlap from high exhaust gas back pressure and high EGTs, so running high boost and retarded timing is a recipe for high EGTs which you quench by throwing in more fuel which makes it feel more soggy. So the sweet spot for boost will be higher without the cats, the ideal AFR will be leaner, and the timing will be that to avoid detonation in both circumstances. There are a lot of vicious cycles that you can setup plus rapidly diminishing returns with less safety margin.

So you simply cannot use a map that is optimised for a full decat on a system with cats. If you do and get away with it then you've eaten massively into the safety margin of the original map, or the map wasn't optimised in the first place.

So if you can control mixtures, EGTs and timing you could run 1.2 bar with a precat. A lot of it is opinion about where the limits are and how close a tuner is prepared to go to the edge. I would far prefer to map cars with no cats in them, and certainly don't relish the prospect of one sitting before the turbo. I also want every car to have more monitoring equipment than most owners want too. At the end of the day if a tuner is unwilling to push something on an inadequately specced vehicle for the spec you are requesting then it is unwise to try and push them to do it unless you want adverse consequences. A lot of people treat their boost gauges as a dyno plot. Perhaps you had a bad experience testing a car with a certain map on it - well find another that you do like? I believe that most tuners will tune the car to you satisfaction or refund.

Ru$$Rip

SO HOW do Prodrive manage it - noone answers this fundamental question.

Midlife, Are you being charged full whack for a new re-map? I will be VERY interested to hear your views after you have had the stage 2 Tek2 remap from Stan Palmers.

john banks

The example maps provided with Ecutek tools to tuners are just that - examples, and I have always treated them as that with good results. Tuners are encouraged to develop their own standard and custom maps, so there is no reason why anything cannot be achieved. Depends on what your tuner is willing/able to do. Ecutek are marketing their system to tuners as a tool for them to do what they want with rather than marketing standard tuning packages to put on cars. Scoobysport are doing their own flavours, as am I. I believe Bob Rawle does only custom mapping which has a lot to be said for it.

Anyone can map a car completely standard running 95 RON if you really want. It is very depressing and slow. But it can be done.

The PPP may well perform better than another tuners standard map when cats are involved. They have put extensive testing into what they are producing with extensive R&D and warranty backing. The new PPP is a class act. You can absolutely bet that they put huge work into developing something well beyond an example map hence the results.

Most of the other tuners are doing the vast majority of their tuning work around decat cars or very free breathing sports cat cars. So the majority of their experience and testing will be based around these, and if you ask them to map around something else they will probably leave larger safety margins to cover themselves as the last thing any tuner wants is an engine failure. It is completely natural if you are less familiar with a particular setup you are not going to push it as you are less experienced with the sorts of safety margins required, so you end up being quite conservative. In the case of just doing a standard reflash you aren't thinking at all (apart from checking the map is safe having previously developed it or using someone else's map), and the map has the lowest common denominator with a big safety margin.

You have a free choice about what you buy and from whom.

[Edited by john banks - 5/20/2003 10:30:19 AM]

ZIPPY

To reply to John i know what your saying about who i choose to complete a re-map based on their ability and track record but nobody can answer can they complete a map for me, based on my setup as it is without paying a fortune with additional parts on the car.
I dont wish to remove my up-pipe cat as i've been in a car without one and the fuel vapour in the car on start up and slowdown after spirated driving is horrendous.
I want a re-map based on downpipe backwards de-cat (leave the up-pipe in) with good power and torque increases similair to the PPP.

The claimed 265BHP on the Palmers partial de-cat is very optomistic as i drove it on Saturday and it was better than standard but nowhere near the claimed 265BHP.
I've driven a car with a downpipe backwards Scoobysport system and it would eat it for breakfast and thats not running 265BHP.

But my question was without going the full (Tek 3)re-map at circa £1000 fitted what else can i do, as the ECUTEK people i've spoken to all seem to say partial or full de-cat only with no meeting somewhere in the middle which is what i want.

Zippy

[Edited by ZIPPY - 5/20/2003 1:20:47 PM]

john banks

£1000 for a custom map? I'll have to put my prices up

ZIPPY

John, thats based on the re-map, 3 port boost solenoid and Knock sensor and it was £950 at a well known (TEK 3) southern tuning business.
They also said that the car must have all the cats off it and wouldnt touch it with the up-pipe cat still in place.
So thats another £300 if i were to buy one and have it fitted.

Zippy

Pete Croney

Me too

Zippy, we aren't comparing like for like here.

The 01-02 PPP removed the centre section cat and swapped the rear silencer. It was then a piggy back chip that never let the ECU see over 10psi of boost and left the ECU to sort everything else out. Typically it produced 245bhp and whilst 260lb was claimed, I never got to see one achieve this.

The 03 PPP is a true remap but the 03 WRX does not have an up pipe cat. This car, after PPP fitting, only has one cat, the one in the downpipe and this is a higher flowing unit than the standard one. To make 265bhp with such a combination would not be difficult.

Hope that answers the question.

As to why many tuners ask that the car be mapped with most or all of the cats removed... its simply that we do not want to fail to reach your expectations. If you came in and asked for a map that retained your cats and were then dissapointed, you would most likely ask for a refund. It would have wasted everyone's time.

If the car is decatted, we can be sure that you will leave grinning from ear to ear and the car will still have a large safety margin

Edcase

I've heard a couple people now saying about the uppipe causing fuel vapour problems, yet I've been in several full decat cars and have never experienced that. Is it limited to certain brands of uppipe?

ZIPPY

Pete i will call you to discuss this further.

Zippy

Pete Croney

Edcase

To back you up, a correctly fitted up pipe will not cause any vapour leaks.

Ru$$Rip

The light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter......... or is that just someones upipe on fire?

Steve vRS

I have a full decat and spoke to Zippy before getting my up-pipe fitted. We spoke about the fuel smell so I was nervous about mine.

It is true that if you have your windows open and during the first few miles and after a spirited drive, you can smell petrol but his is from the exhaust, not the up-pipe. The lack of any cat is allowing the unburnt fuel out.

I would have thought that a solution to this would be to remove the up-pipe cat but re-fit the centre cat. This way you have all the benifits of the decatted up and down pipe but the centre cat will knock out the unburnt fuel and also quieten the car down a bit.

Standing to be corrected...

Steve

john banks

Maybe it needs to be a bit leaner

Pete Croney

That may explain why a full decat 01-03 on the standard ECU map flames so enthusiastically on over run, when being driven hard.

Interesting theory.

midlife-crisis-scooby

Ru$$rip

sorry about the delay in reply but I often have to log on late..Stan Palmers charged £500 or so for the EcuTeK on my 02 with centre cat removed and Magnex back box.

Steve Sherwen and others posted about the better feel from a full de-cat and Stan Palmer (AKA Ian Armstrong) arranged that as well. The re-map quote for the full de-cat is for £100.

I would DEARLY love to travel to the Guru's and have my car re-mapped on a one-to-one but time constraints get in the way. Ian at Stan Palmers arrange for everything..I drop off the car...they get me to work...I work to earn money..they pick me up and the car's ready..back of the net.

I can't really argue about the quote as I would lose more money driving around the country.

I pay the money and takes my (well looked after choice).


Midlife....

PS I'll let you know how the re-map goes

JIM THEO

Are you sure about this Pete?
I thought that 03 WRX has one cat in the up pipe and PPP replaces only the rear silencer not centre section cat or downpipe cat...
Can someone tell me for sure?
JIM

WREXY

Jimmy,

Have a read here. http://forum.ecutek.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16

I think you'll find that the MY03 has no uppipe cat and the MY03 PPP process now also involves replacing the downipe with a sports cat.

You may as well join up too.

Cheers,

George.





[Edited by WREXY - 5/21/2003 2:50:29 PM]

Nick Wadeson

Pete

On an 03MY WRX, the down-pipe remains as standard. We only replace the down-pipe as part of the STI PPP.

Thanks, Nick.

Pete Croney

LOL thanks Nick.

I checked this with two dealers before posting it. Just goes to show...

john banks

The number of specification changes is just heady to both the standard cars and the PPPs. It was easier when the only official UK car was "turbo" and it was down to colour and body shape