Ru$$Rip

Does anyone know what are the boost figures for an off the shelf Ecutek2 for an My01+ ?What does it peak at and how far up the rev range range does it hold to?

Thanks

Lan Man

Hopefully not 1.5 like mine :-(

Ru$$Rip

1.5 What happened!?

S600HBY

I think pete told me it was 1.25 bar

taylor

I was talking to Pete today about just this thing. He told me 1.25 bar also.

My ECU gets sent off tomorrow. Can't wait!

hades

Mine was from Power Engineering, target on theirs is 1.18 peak, 1.14 held. IMO, the scoobysport is a slightly more "agressive" map. What is a "safe" level, and whether 0.07 bar would make much difference to safety or power (probably 5-8bhp) I'll let others debate.

Ru$$Rip

It sounds like that it isnt 'off-the-shelf' if PE and SS have different variations of the Tek2 - Isnt that classed as a Tek3??

taylor

It is a TEK3. I have a full decat and with the Tek3 they expect 285bhp and 270lb/ft. It costs approx £760 from SS. I don't know how that compares to PE.

Turnaround is same day. So expect to be carless for 3 days total.

elgordano

i've got the SS ecutek remap with full decat on an MY01 and at a recent rolling road event hit 282bhp.....boost peaks at 1.27bar (that's what my SECS monitor is telling me anyway).

Gordo

Ru$$Rip

Gordo Have u also got the Tek3?

pat

Slight confusion here, the Scoobysport maps for the MY01 onwards are what would have been classified as "Tek3" in the past (but that nomenclature has been dropped by ECUTEK), that's why the boost level is a little higher, and why they're pushed a little harder than the "Tek2". Boost level is largely customer dependant, on New Age WRX cars we have boost levels between 1.2 and 1.3 bar... there is no real benefit to pushing the poor little TD04L beyond 1.3, and even at that the additional gains over 1.25 bar are marginal (but they are present and measurable). The poor little turbo can only manage this boost through the midrange.

Different customers' requirements will vary drastically, on one end of the scale simply to make it run on 95 RON day to day with a mild increase in performance, through to getting every last horsepower out of the TD04L, leading on to maps for cars which have had their turbos and injectors changed and are looking at extending the power band at the top of the rev range.

As a general guideline, most customers have a full exhaust system fitted and want to further improve their vehicle's performance without going too wild This normally means 1.25 bar through the midrange, obviously tailing off toward the top. This type of map should normally make about 280 BHP, but it completely transforms the driving experience, the response and torque through the midrange make it feel like a different car

With a turbo and injector swap, the sky (or more accurately, the air flow meter) is the limit (and even that can be worked around). I've recorded air flow figures which indicate the car is making in excess of 350 BHP on a WRX! Being extremely careful about the figures (ie weight, gear ratios, tyre size etc), we've seen Road Dyno Power@Wheels figures up to 320 - 330BHP on an STi and between 280 and 290 on a WRX, it will be interesting to see what power these cars make on the rollers.

Hope this helps,

Pat.

elgordano

Ru$$Rip, think pat has answered your question as he remapped my car.

Gordo

chris singleton

Slightly off the mark as I've got the PPP and decat as opposed to the Tek, I'll normally see about 1.25 held and peaks of 1.3 and 1.4 depending on the whether. 5th gear will also hold 1.35-1.4 again in the cold.

Normal whether will normally hold about 1.2 and 1.3 in 5th.

Cheers

Chris

LoFi

Pat, I have one of your lovely MY01 full decat 'Tek3' remaps, holds the boost levels you've posted here and makes similar figures to Gordo at PE. PE mentioned that the injectors were at times over the 100% level, which concerns me. Is this something only likely to happen on the rollers? Is it a problem with pushing the map to the current boost levels and would an set of STi injectors sort the problem (and would these allow further improvement without running off the IDC scale).

Sorry if I've kidnapped the thread but I'm sure there are other SS Tek3 map owners watching who might be interested.

LoFi

Ru$$Rip

Thanks for the all the great info. My original question stems from an understanding that certain dealers are providing standard Tek2 maps for the WRX. These are :

Standard car - 260 BHP
Full-decat 280 BHP

I was of the opinion that these new Tek2's can be applied within minutes and no further setup (unlike the Tek3 which requires customising on the road). These Tek2's are coming in under the 500 pound mark! ProDrive must apply a standard Ecutek map to the new PPP cars - surely they will not apply Tek3's !? If a dealer is prepared to pay for the same licence and can do it a LOT cheaper (warranty apart) then this is good news for the customers?

StephenDone

Just to clarify, Tek2 maps are only available from EcuTek or Power Engineering. The confusion arises because many people are using the phrases 'Tek2' & 'Tek3' to describe remaps done by other EcuTek tuners. People use 'Tek3' to describe an ECU that has been custom tuned to the exact spec of the drivetrain in their car. PE and EcuTek no longer supply Tek3 because they/we are just too busy to do custom mapping. However, most EcuTek dealers will do custom mapping. I am not saying that real Tek2s from EcuTek or PE are any better or worse than other ECU calibrations by other EcuTek tuners, just that they _are_ different.

Each EcuTek tuner has full control over the maps in the ECU. So the ECU calibrations that each tuner supplies will be different and completely up to them. EcuTek sell tuning tools, not ECU calibrations. Stationers sell pens, it is up to the user what they write with them !

In answer to your question (if you haven't fallen asleep yet!), Power Engineering run approximately 16 PSI of boost. Some tuners may tune for more, some for less.

Cheers

Steve

pat

LoFi,

the base Subaru maps are incredibly rich to start with, so rich in fact that it robs power and makes the engine feel "wooly". We alter the fuel maps to restore a feeling of "crispness" to the car, but as a general rule of thumb, won't take out any more fuel than absolutely necessary to achieve this aim. This means that the fuel map is still very rich, a good couple of AFR numbers richer than one would use if chasing every last little pony. The main reason for this approach is not because we own shares in Shell or Esso, but the exact same reason Subaru made them rich in the first place... to help cool the inside of the engine. A cool engine is a happy engine, it's a proven "trick" that's been around since Noah fitted Nitrous to The Ark anyway, I digress....

The injector duty will be dependant on the airflow, and that can be affected by atmospheric conditions, as well as driving style (naturally ). This means that it is possible to experience this type of duty cycle on the road as well as on the dyno, if the conditions are "right" (ie barometric pressure, air temp, relative humidity, percentage of lead in right foot etc).

While the readings may indicate it was over 100%, clearly it is impossible for an injector to be operating beyond 100%. In fact the ECU will limit the duty a little below 100% because an injector needs some "rest" time between injection pulses.

There are many ways of reducing the high duty cycles. The simplest is to simply lean out the fuel table a little further. It will still be very rich, but it won't register such high duty cycles anymore. However, as I explained above, we prefer to only pull out enough fuel to achieve the desired goals. This means that normally it would not exceed 100% duty, and normally it would run really rich. On those occasions where the airflow is greater, the ECU will limit the amount of fuel delivered (because it limits the duty), but because the map is very rich anyway, the result is that it still continues to run richer than one would use to find every last little pony, it's just a slight reduction in "cooling" fuel.

You didn't mention what the readings from the gas analyser were on the rollers. I would hazard a guess that they were reading really quite rich, and were not a cause for concern (I'm presuming that if there was cause for concern that would have been pointed out to you, and that you'de be pointing it out to me).

It's a delicate balancing act. Does one lower the fuel table so that it can never exceed 100% duty, and accept that it will put more heat into the cylinders every time it is driven hard. Or does one keep the map very rich, and accept that occasionally it may try to run more than 100%, with the result that it runs exactly as it would have done had the fuel been taken out of the fuel table, but only for a short duration, rather than every time. My preference is to have the benefit of the additional cooling the rest of the time

Of course if you want to keep it really rich all the time *AND* make sure that it can never exceed 100% even just for a short time, then there are two options... a) run less boost or b) increase the flow of the injectors.

Option a) is pretty easy and free, since the mapping charge includes a tweaking session. If you feel uncomfortable about the high duty cycles, despite the fact that the car is still running safely, then the boost can be lowered so that even on stock injectors the duty can't climb to 100%

Option b) can be achieved a couple of different ways. The easy and relatively inexpensive way is to fit an after market fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator. This allows the fuel pressure to be raised, and along with it, the flow rate of the injectors. Once they're re-scaled in the map, the duty cycles will naturally drop, and it's sorted. The more difficult, and more expensive way is to fit bigger injectors. This is a painstaking job, and I would only recommend that it be done on cars that will be swapping turbochargers. Again, after re-scaling them in the map, the duty cycles will naturally fall and hey presto, rich as you like and nowhere near 100%. Of course if you then go and fit a bigger turbo then it'de be wise to upgrade the fuel pump and regulator too, as the STi injectors can overwhelm the stock fuel pump at very high duty cycles.

Hopefully this sheds some light on the situation, but just for the sake of completeness I'll answer each of your questions directly...

a) It can happen on the road as well as on the rollers, but it doesn't mean it's unsafe, it's just putting less "cooling" fuel in, but it's still very rich

b) It is related to the boost level, and also the atmospheric conditions. The higher boost increases the airflow, and thereby also the fuel requirements. The same is true of cool dense air.

c) STi injectors will drop the duty cycles significantly. The TD04L turbo cannot flow enough air to max out the STi injectors, therefore the IDCs would never even approach 100%.

Simply by increasing the fuelling at the point where you are seeing >100% duty will most likely reduce the power output, because more energy is being absorbed by the additional "cooling" fuel. It would be necessary to increase boost further to recover this power, and possibly release a litte more, but the TD04L is already being worked quite hard, so it would be unwise to push it even further. You'de find much more power by swapping the turbo for one that's designed to flow the air, and it would be less stressfull both on the engine and the turbo.

There is a good reason why we chose the boost levels we have done, it's pretty much the sensible limit to what can be done with the stock injectors (as evident by occasional IDCs over 100%) and the stock turbo (as evident by the fact that additional boost increases only result in marginal power increases).

Hope this helps,

Pat.

LoFi

Pat, thanks for the very comprehensive reply (which I think I understand most of!). I should have mentioned that PE said it was a bit lean at the top but nothing to worry about but I does make me wonder if it is not running quite as rich as we think.

Having said that I'm glad to see that there is a potentially cost effective way of increasing the safety margin without reducing the boost with an uprated fuel pump and regulator. Could you or Pete email me with the relevant costs.

I didn't realise a tweeking season was included and for my peice of mind would you suggest it wise to bring the car in for a run on your delta dash?

Many thanks - and I love the current performance you've given the car.

LoFi

taylor

Pete

If a tweaking session is included in the price, how come a postal map costs the same? More to the point, if tweaking is required after mapping, is a postal map a such a good idea?

Pete Croney

Hi Taylor

Our postal map doesn't need any tweaking, its designed to be plug and play. Should you want it tweaked to get a bit more from it, at a later stage, this would be done at no extra cost

Ru$$Rip

Pete :

- Is your postal map a 'standard' EcuTek2 map or a custom SS map?
- Is the postal or off-the-shelf Ecutek2 map the same as the Prodrive use as part of the new PPP package?

You have probably already answered these ?'s but I just need it clarifiying.

Cheers

StephenDone

The answer is that they are all different.

Also, EcuTek tools do not allow one tuner to read the work of another out of an ECU - this is part of the protection for each tuner's custom work.

Stephen Done
EcuTek.

pat

LoFi,

it would be helpful to know exactly how "lean" it was running. If PE said it wasn't anything to worry about then I'de hazard a guess at it being somewhere between 7 and 10% CO on full chat at the top, which is fine.

As for fuel pressure reg and fuel pump, I'll let Pete get in touch with you regarding them

Perhaps I didn't articulate the fact that there's a free tweaking session very well, my bad. It takes time for the car to settle down after the remap, and it takes time for the owner to get used to the way it goes. Only once you've had a chance to drive it for a while, will you be able to pick up on nuances which may need a small alteration to the map.

Then again you may find some aspect of the map doesn't suit your driving style; for example I map in such a way that allows the driver to alter the boost with the accelerator. That may seem "obvious"... the harder you press the faster you go. It isn't that simple though, because it is entirely possible for the car to make full boost at only 50% throttle... so then you're left with half the pedal travel with no change in acceleration. Some people like the ability to change the boost with the accelerator, whereas others prefer to get the maximum boost at the lowest possible throttle angle. It's all a case of personal preference. While I make every effort to ensure the owner is able to experience a range of roads, from dual carriageway to twisty B-roads on the day, it may only become apparent at a later stage that the boost control strategy in use doesn't suit your driving style. This is just one example of why someone may want a tweak.

I'm more than happy for you to pop by and I'll Delta Dash the car again, but if PE have said it's nothing to worry about then odds are that Delta Dash will show the same thing I'll also do the remap for the fuel pump and pressure regulator free of charge should you decide to fit these (I would imagine there would be a fitting charge, though).

taylor,

the cost of a postal map is the same as a map that is done on site to keep things simple and to encourage people to visit If we sold the postal maps at a reduced cost then there would be nothing to discourage someone literally *IN* Basildon requesting a remap by post, which obviously doesn't make any sense. All things being equal I vastly prefer to do a map with the car present because it allows me to check the map on the car, there's no possibility of a manufacturing tolerance causing an issue with the map, because I would see it and correct for it. On a postal map I also have to assume that the car is at the "bad" end of the spectrum and tone it down accordingly. This is fine if the car really is at that end of the spectrum but of course it doesn't get the best out of a car which is at the other end... then we may need to go through a few iterations to optimise the map to that particular car.

Both types of map are entitled to a free tweak. In the case of a postal map, with the aid of a customer copy of DeltaDash it is possible to analyse how the car is behaving on the map and to make any changes as necessary.

With regard to the "requirement" for remapping, it is really more a case of customising a map to a driver's preferences rather than addressing some issue with the map.

Ru$$Rip,

The Scoobysport postal maps are just what it says on the tin... a "Scoobysport postal map" It will be based on a map that has been developped on a similarly, if not identically setup car, but a little less "aggressive", so it will be safe even if the car turns out to be at the "bad" end of the manufacturing spectrum.

The PPP map is a Prodrive map, it was developped by Prodrive, one would imagine, on a car that was equipped with the other constituent components of the PP package...

Hope this helps,

Pat.

LoFi

Pat,,
Once again very informative. I agree totally with your description of the boost progression. The way you have done my car the boost level is infinately variable with a flex of the right foot, giving great control over power through corners and allowing judicious use of throttle steering. I love the setup, although I can see why some may prefer something different.

Wish I knew what CO level they'd seen at PE. As you can imagine it's just something that nags at the back of the mind (so much so I went and got a knock and lambda link!)(Not fitted the lambda link yet - you dont happen to know which is the right ecu wire from the lambda sensor do you?)

I look forward to hearing from Pete about the fuel pump, regulator and fitting, and then we can arrange a tweeking session.

LoFi

Edcase

Piers are you at Japfest? Keen to check out the car...

midlife-crisis-scooby

Hi

I had a TeK2 done a few weeks ago which I thought was a standard "off the shelf" re-map. Brilliant....

Next week the MY02 is having a full de-cat, do I need a different flavour of Tek2 to cope??

I don't mind shelling out £500 for the Tek2 but twice in 10 weeks is a bit steep!!

Midlife...

LoFi

Ed,

Yes I'll be there. Will you have you brakes fitted by then?

MLC - not sure whether you'll have to pay again but you'll certainly see great benefits from having the car mapped to suit the decat. Having the uppipe changed as well as the rest allows the map to be pushed furthest I understand (and saves the cat dissappearing into the turbo - yuk)

LoFi

Edcase

Piers - all fitted! Just bedding in....they take an age! Done a couple heat cycles from 40 and 60mph, need to go out one evening this week and do some from 80/90. REALLY don't want to warp brand new discs next weekend!

Car goes to the bodyshop tomorrow to get the new bits coded / put on so styling-wise it's finished this week!!!

Then its on to the engine

Make sure you track me down at some point during the day. (Green MY02 with the 'scoobes' number plate)

LoFi

Ed, I'll look out for you. Probably pop my user name in the window along with the PE RR plots - spot me with the wife and 7 month old in tow!

Hope to see you there
Piers

Edcase

Yeah I did consider sticking the username in the window....