Alberick

Did anyone have experience with those? A friend of mine has a Nissan Almera 1.8 and would like to try these out?
DO they actually bring some additional hp/torque or is it potentially dangerous for the engine?

Paul_M

They only produce small amounts of boost for short periods of time cos they need massive current to produce even enough flow to match what the engine would draw at WOT.

No comparison whatsoever to a proper turbo, more of a gimmick than a real benefit IMO. And make sure it's one with a proper high-power high-flow fan, there are some real sh1tty things out there that would struggle to keep your PC processor cool let alone force-feed an engine.

Alberick

Thanks Paul,

Have any good adresses in Europe where one could buy those?
The only one i found is German

http://www.kamann-autosport.com

and seems to be serious, although it's hard to believe what they claim.
Anyway, eventually he will ive it a try, if so, we will make dyno runs before & after to see the difference.

Ramon

Turbo_Steve

You will get more benefit from one of these:

http://cars.potn.com/product_info.php/products_id/75711

And MUCH less money.
And they really do work.

Alberick

Steve,

thanks for the info but what exactly is that? They make some claims there, but nowhere do they describe whee this thingy is installed?

Does that work on NA cars only or also turbo (gasoline & diesel) cars?

Turbo_Steve

I've never had one, as all my cars have had turbos, (on which I think the EcoTek makes no difference) but the NA cars I HAVE seen them on really improved in terms of driveability.

The best example of this was on my friends Corrado VR6, which showed marked improvements in fuel economy and pickup.
The benefits are less noticable if you already have an induction kit (apparently).

Have a read of this: http://www.stealthracing.co.uk/sr_eco.html

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

SNAKEOIL!!!

Turbo_Steve

Er..thank you for that measured and intelligent argument.
I've seen the difference on a rolling road, so hardly snake-oil.
I wouldn't stick one on your turbo'd car, mind, as it wouldn't do anything, but on a standard Almera 1.8 NA you WILL feel a difference.
What I will add, is that if you already have a good induction kit (that replaces ALL the resonators in your induction tract) then the benefits from this will be smaller.

Tell me a good argument why it's snake oil.

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

there is no way you can measure this device on a rolling road!

2 runs on a rolling road minutes apart can give a difference in results without touching anything!

borrowed one of these and fitted it to a 525 24v bmw, made no difference to the driving of the car at all.

the fuel consumption didn't change (on a trip computer)

had it on for around 2 weeks and it made no difference what so ever to the car.

so i took it off!

IMHO its SNAKEOIL!!!

Alberick

ok ok then its snakeoil, what is it that recently everybody here has to impose his opinion upon others?
you guys got used to the "Current World Events" forum too much?

Anyway, my thread was about electric turbos, how good they are and what additional hp/torque they bring....

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

well my opinion is they are a waste of money, better off spending it on cams or head work IMHO.

WEBSTER

try RSE developments they do something called a turbozet

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

PMSL at the fans inside the turbozet!
http://www.rse.co.uk/turbozet.htm
sorry if i sound sceptical but i am sure they sell those fans in pc world

Turbo_Steve

Frankly, if you want more power, buy a faster car.

Well, the ECOTek worked for me, so get one and try it. POTN offer them on a "Money back if not satisfied" offer, so you can't lose.

I'm sick to death of Scoobynet, and money pit cars, and all of it.
You want my advice: Buy a pushbike.

chockymonster

I did a load of tests for another car club on both the turbozet and the ecotek.
I wasn't the only person that tried the zet or the ecotek.

The turbozet reduced max bhp from 195 to 183, that was average over 3 runs with it fitted and not fitted.

The ecotek did absolutely nothing for power, made the stupidest noise you'll ever hear! Think of a cross between a piece of card on your bike spokes and an angry bee
As for pick up, 3 runs on an ap22 showed an average of 6.93 to 60 with out it, 7.88 with it.
MPG over 2 weeks rose by .03 mpg.
I tried to make the tests as scientific as possible, and think that I did, shoot them down in flames if you want, but IMO both devices are cr@p

pat

On a car which runs closed loop fuel control (read: pretty much any modern car), the ECOTEK won't improve fuel economy, because all it's doing is to introduce unmetered air, and the closed loop control system will compensate by richening up the mixture. End result is the same AFR on cruise as you've always had, and no improvement in fuel economy. HOWEVER, if the engine management system uses a global fuel trim and applies this even when not using closed loop control, the result will be a richening up of the AFR under WoT, which may give some power gains.

If your engine management does not use closed loop control on fuelling then the ECOTEK may be able to improve fuel economy slightly on cruise by shifting the AFR to being slightly lean of stoich (best bsfc occurs at about 1.05 lambda). If the car is equipped with a catalytic converter and does not have a lambda sensor then a) it should have a lambda sensor and b) the introduction of the ECOTEK will render the cat inoperable.

If your car has no cat, no lambda sensor, for example early Bosch L-Jetronic, then it may be improved by the ECOTEK. To the best of my knowledge there is not one single car coming off the production lines today that would; cars that can be improved by the ECOTEK would not meet current type approval on emsissions.

If you want something that will REALLY make a difference then try fitting a centrifual supercharger with ZF drive, or maybe even a Lysholm screw type of blower. If you don't mind having to fill it up occasionally then wet nitrous injection will work quite well too

With regard to ECOTEK and TurboZet.... Caveat Emptor!

Cheers,

Pat.

KungFuMonkey

A turbo = an air pump

If you get/make a decent sized electric driven pump you could get it to work better than a turbo.

If you ran at a constant speed you could have a constant boost pressure (Varied by an electric pressure relief valve to give a boost curve if you wanted it)

Would definatley have advantages as you wouldnt get spool up lag, and you wouldnt overspin it (like asupercharger) as it wouldnt be dependednt on engine speed.

I dare say it would be quite a complicated system to do and would probably need oil cooling to stop the motor burning out, a reasonable size of electric motor, and quite a high current draw. Probably why no manufacturers have made one.

Might be a market opening........ Patent office here i come.

Jono

Adam M

sorry mate, this is a public forum, so you have just destroyed any chances you have of your invention being considered novel, simply by publishing it yourself.

BruceWarne

KungFuMonkey - Reasonably sized electric motor you say...?

Remember why a turbo works - there's something called positive feedback...the harder the engine works, the more gasses are generated, faster the turbo spins, the more power is generated, the harder the engine works, more gass, faster turbo, more gass, faster , more gass, faster turbo....you get the idea...

How would you do that with an electric motor? Say it uses 10kW...where does it get the power from? From the battery? But that will only work if the nett effect of the electric turbo on the engine power is larger than 10kW (cause you'll need at least 10kW to keep the battery charged up)...same goes for alternator power (the alternator is getting more efficient as the turbo spins faster)...Maybe I'm explaining this wrong...the loop never gets closed (or if it does, the gain <1)


A normal turbo setup is a very elegant way to "close the loop".

The cost of spinnig a turbo is much less than the payoff from the increased pressure.

Paul_M

Like I said they have been made before but due to the high current they can only work for a short while at WOT and won't produce anywhere near the boost of a proper turbo or supercharger.

The turbo-zet is a perfect example of the "PC cooling fan" load of crap that would struggle to produce enough flow at idle. Have a look at http://www.electricsupercharger.com/ for one with a slightly more powerful fan which potentially does work (although I'd highly recommend trying to get some independant reviews cos the manufacturer is never going to admit the product is crap).

Personally I don't think it's really worth the bother for the small gains you'd get but there are kits out there that do work to an extent if you definitely want to go down that route.

Turbo_Steve

You would probably have better results thinking along the lines of "jump starting" an existing turbo with the electric motor. You'd only be using the electrics to overcome lag then.
But why bother: you could simply trigger a small explosion in the turbine by letting an overfuelling into the turbo, and then letting oxygen through on the exhaust cycle so the mixture will detonate in the turbine spinning it faster, commonly known as Anti-Lag (Yes, I know that is a crap description).

Your're kind fo re-inventing the wheel with the electric idea:
You'd need an extremely powerful motor to supply sufficient charge at WOT. TBH NOS is easier.

Turbo_Steve

Mate...I wish you all the luck in the world with it!

Seriously, though, I agree with your comments about stagnation. However, you are following a path that has been explored previously. Electric motor technology, and indeed battery techonolgy have come on hugely in the past ten years. (Certainly, the mobile revoloution has caused battery technology to almost completely re-invent itself!)


At the moment, engine technology has just had a major "spurt" with Valve-Timing technology in various guises. It'll be a few years for this to develop down all the avenues possible before anything new appears.
It's possible that superconductive motors (supposedly the next big thing, although they've been saying that since the 60's) will make the electric turbo idea more fesible as they are almost lossless.

But still unlikely to be as lossless as a closed loop turbocharger. The idea that the output is a function of the feedback loop is hard to beat: essentially the only drawback is the lag. Now...if you could find a reliable, cheap and non-destructive way of eliminating turbo lag....well...I'll buy you a beer anyway. And a lot of TurboDiesel owners will probably buy you your own island.

KungFuMonkey

I'll make sure i'll try that mod tonight!!

Paul_M

A lot of turbodiesels have largely overcome the lag problem with variable geometry, drive by wire etc. In many ways it seems diesels are progressing at a phenominally quick rate compared to petrols (plus the fact that diesels pretty much need a turbo to be decent and don't suffer det issues so the demand is much greater). Also the massive torque and lack of revability means they need operate over a much smaller rev range.

Certainly the latest BMW diesels feel very little lag from the turbo. Would like to try a twin-scroll petrol turbo though from what I've heard of them (i.e. almost instant response).

rosswalker

If car manufacturers are spending £millions£ on improving fuel economy/efficiency. Why don't they scrap the budget and make cars cheeper and fit the ECOTEC. All cars should come fitted with the marvelous ECOTEK device.
What a load of bull.

Turbo_Steve

What manufacturers actually do is redesign the inlet manifold to acheieve the effect that the ECOTEK is purported to create: i.e. that of a more efficient mixture.

I've had one on a Mk2 Golf GTi and a Renault 19 16v, and it definitely improved pickup if you went from partaial to full throttle quickly. Not saying it works for everyone but that was my personal experience. It also made the car "feel" faster. Oh, and yes, it made a stupid noise (but then so do dumpvalves, and relatively speaking so do turbos).

Still, I appreciate your polite and well reasoned arguments, thanks: Mind the step on the way out.

And manufacturers are renowned for not always getting it right, too. There are many examples of simple ideas that made dramatic changes to the automotive industry, but had been blindly ignored for years previously.

Best thing to do with the Almera is probably to swap it for something like a Punto GT Turbo. Similar class of car with a turbo on it.

Alberick

Thanks for all your comments, my friend will definitively put such a device on his Almera, it's already ordered.

Concerning swapping the car, he's already plan to do so, not with a Punto GT, but either a 33 or 34 GTR, RX7 or a Supra TT.

I will let you know my impressions when he has this thingy installed on his car

BruceWarne

double post

[Edited by BruceWarne - 5/6/2003 11:52:36 AM]

KungFuMonkey

I agree that theres all sorts of issue that would need looking at, and it could be what you say is exactly spot on. However i have considerable doubts that an electric powered turbo would use anywhere near 10kw of power.

Would have to go away and work things out but is likely to be much much less.

I've not really put any great thought into the subject, it was just one of many random thoughts i've had and this discussion seemed a good place to dump it.

I still think its possible.

I'll get back when ive had a good think on it, drawn up soem sketches and secured my Patent. :-))

Jono

Editted to add.

I think the cooling of the motor is more of a difficulty. Would get very hot running for long time, would need it's own recurculating / cooling oil supply.

[Edited by KungFuMonkey - 5/6/2003 1:33:53 PM]

KungFuMonkey

Im not advocating the use of one of those ........... fans for lack of a better word. I doubt they do anything except block the airflow.

I kindov went off topic to go on about a propper electic driven turbo (i.e a propper pump driven by an electric motor, not an in line pc fan)

(And the rest is edited out cos im a numptie)

JOno

[Edited by KungFuMonkey - 5/6/2003 4:19:27 PM]