Question for the moderators
05 February 2003, 01:25 PM
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Why have threads with more technical content than has been shown on Scoobynet recently been locked?
If people are spending vast sums of money and not getting results, why are threads discussing this being closed, especially if products may not be up to the job? Surely bringing this to people's attention is not a hindrance, otherwise Scoobynet is just colluding with suppliers.
I have purchased a TD05 from Lateral Performance and am over the moon with it. Had it not been for the input on Scoobynet I would have gone the established route and made a big mistake.
Andy F has basically rewritten the book for Subaru tuning over the last year and shared all his results and hard work, thanks to him that I bought a TD05.
I am struggling to see why people are disappointed with Scoobynet technical forums at present, when the level of debate is the best it has been for ages.
Are we all so soft that we can't take criticism or debate?
Where is freedom of speech, and is there really an issue for Scoobynet with regards to libel here?
If people are spending vast sums of money and not getting results, why are threads discussing this being closed, especially if products may not be up to the job? Surely bringing this to people's attention is not a hindrance, otherwise Scoobynet is just colluding with suppliers.
I have purchased a TD05 from Lateral Performance and am over the moon with it. Had it not been for the input on Scoobynet I would have gone the established route and made a big mistake.
Andy F has basically rewritten the book for Subaru tuning over the last year and shared all his results and hard work, thanks to him that I bought a TD05.
I am struggling to see why people are disappointed with Scoobynet technical forums at present, when the level of debate is the best it has been for ages.
Are we all so soft that we can't take criticism or debate?
Where is freedom of speech, and is there really an issue for Scoobynet with regards to libel here?
05 February 2003, 01:38 PM
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I agree in a way with both sides.. reading all the threads it seems like something else is being implied..
I did report this to the moderators...
I feel that its best that they are locked... I also said that there was no technical content worth reading here at the moment...
Maybe its becuase its too cold in everyones garage for them..
David
I did report this to the moderators...
I feel that its best that they are locked... I also said that there was no technical content worth reading here at the moment...
Maybe its becuase its too cold in everyones garage for them..
David
05 February 2003, 02:06 PM
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Firstly i would like to point out that, with the exception of David, No one has reported these threads to the moderators.
I have stated why i locked the threads, quite clearly.
The problem I have, and John will no doubt back me up, is that it takes a lot of time and effort to go through these threads to monitor them. It is not even good enough to just start from where you last read, as users are going back and editing their posts, which IMO just inflames the situation.
The Drivetrain forum is all about passing on information for the good of others, but it must be done in a constructive manner, with no hidden undertones.
Given the nature of some of the posts within these threads, it is quite clear to me that EVERYONE is getting annoid with the standard of drivetrain over the last few weeks.
I have looked at going through the threads in detail and removing NON technical content from any of these posts, but that is just too dificult to do, and too time consuming.
So in an attempt to stop things descending any further, I chose to lock the threads, my choice, based on the amount of work that i have had to put in over the last couple of weeks just to review things, so much so that i have been unable to post any queries i have of my own.
Now that should not happen IMO.
I agree that some posts do have good technical content in them, there is also a lot of non technical content too.
I do not have several hours a day available to monitor such things to such an extent.
Some of the posts over the last couple of weeks have had issues with them. Freedom of speech is not as simple as you think. Posting in a manner that is tantamount to incitement, is not on, and may have legal issues associated with it.
If users would like to continue discussing similar topics, then do so, but do not do it in such a manner as that seen in these threads, it completely ruins the spirit of Scoobynet, and in particular, the Drivetrain forum.
This action has not been taken to take any sides, but merely to try and put an end to the downward trend of posts seen in drivetrain.
Please try and understand that this has been done with Scoobynets best intentions at heart.
Steven
I have stated why i locked the threads, quite clearly.
The problem I have, and John will no doubt back me up, is that it takes a lot of time and effort to go through these threads to monitor them. It is not even good enough to just start from where you last read, as users are going back and editing their posts, which IMO just inflames the situation.
The Drivetrain forum is all about passing on information for the good of others, but it must be done in a constructive manner, with no hidden undertones.
Given the nature of some of the posts within these threads, it is quite clear to me that EVERYONE is getting annoid with the standard of drivetrain over the last few weeks.
I have looked at going through the threads in detail and removing NON technical content from any of these posts, but that is just too dificult to do, and too time consuming.
So in an attempt to stop things descending any further, I chose to lock the threads, my choice, based on the amount of work that i have had to put in over the last couple of weeks just to review things, so much so that i have been unable to post any queries i have of my own.
Now that should not happen IMO.
I agree that some posts do have good technical content in them, there is also a lot of non technical content too.
I do not have several hours a day available to monitor such things to such an extent.
Some of the posts over the last couple of weeks have had issues with them. Freedom of speech is not as simple as you think. Posting in a manner that is tantamount to incitement, is not on, and may have legal issues associated with it.
If users would like to continue discussing similar topics, then do so, but do not do it in such a manner as that seen in these threads, it completely ruins the spirit of Scoobynet, and in particular, the Drivetrain forum.
This action has not been taken to take any sides, but merely to try and put an end to the downward trend of posts seen in drivetrain.
Please try and understand that this has been done with Scoobynets best intentions at heart.
Steven
05 February 2003, 02:19 PM
#5
I agree with everything Steven has posted here. I asked Steven to come onboard as a moderator of drivetrain because i was becoming more aware of the fact i dont have the time to steer the forum in a constructive way on my own anymore.
The general atmosphere has deteriorated lately and it's time this was checked.
I am facinated by what people like Harvey, MarkA, Bob, JohnB, Andy.F have to say, it's also very healthy for these people to disagree at times. What is not healthy and will not be tolerated is the tendancy to become agresive in these disagreements.
Subaru tuning has come on in leaps and bounds over the last 3 years, these forums have been a major catalyst to this process. Lets all just think a bit more about the way we post in here, as it will be a huge loss if people start turning away from reading this forum because it's more a soap opera than a technical resource.
I for one will no longer let this continue, i will delete posts that are non constructive even if that means some useful information is lost in the process. I hope i dont have to do this, if i do it's your fault.
This forum is well respected and i, with the help of Steven, intend to make sure it stays that way.
The general atmosphere has deteriorated lately and it's time this was checked.
I am facinated by what people like Harvey, MarkA, Bob, JohnB, Andy.F have to say, it's also very healthy for these people to disagree at times. What is not healthy and will not be tolerated is the tendancy to become agresive in these disagreements.
Subaru tuning has come on in leaps and bounds over the last 3 years, these forums have been a major catalyst to this process. Lets all just think a bit more about the way we post in here, as it will be a huge loss if people start turning away from reading this forum because it's more a soap opera than a technical resource.
I for one will no longer let this continue, i will delete posts that are non constructive even if that means some useful information is lost in the process. I hope i dont have to do this, if i do it's your fault.
This forum is well respected and i, with the help of Steven, intend to make sure it stays that way.
05 February 2003, 03:40 PM
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I accept that you guys have a hard job,especially when old members obviously take new names just to stir things,but I honestly see the "bickering" and "low blow" comment as light-hearted fun most of the time which is usually accompanied with smilies.I even remember steven and david winding each other up on here after the last well lane day,something about "low torque boy" IIRC,a fun comment like that can often turn into a great thread discussing it.
the locked threads to me,were full of technical info. harveys thread about bob's car was more of a chat for a while but there was still good points in it.I have quickly skimmed over them and really struggle to see any problems.
the locked threads to me,were full of technical info. harveys thread about bob's car was more of a chat for a while but there was still good points in it.I have quickly skimmed over them and really struggle to see any problems.
05 February 2003, 04:07 PM
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Yeah well he is low on torque.. Im just worried about what he's having done at the end of the month.
David
David
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05 February 2003, 04:59 PM
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T-Uk
I hear what you are saying, as you will know i was not a moderator back then, and have since (before i was a moderator) regretted posting some of the things i did, because they sometimes deviated from the thread topic. However, there was no anger between David and I, which is a crucial difference IMO.
Thinking about it, both David and I had some of our posts deleted by John, but i did not complain.
Due to the threads being locked, you can still obtain some technical information from them if you look through them, thats why i locked them, and chose not to simply delete them.
This gives you, and others, the opportunity to ask any relevant technical questions from the locked post, hopefully eliminating the cr4p.
Try and remember that a lot of the posts have been edited, and if you have not seen the originals, then you dont know what went on.
You will also note that smilies are not always used, which again makes a difference.
I am all for having a great laugh, but not at the expense of others.
Also try and picture it from a "Genuine" scooby newbies point of view, reading some of the things discussed in there would scare them sh1tless.
Go forward from here, use what you think are the good bits from those posts, and start a new thread if you have any questions.
Steven
I hear what you are saying, as you will know i was not a moderator back then, and have since (before i was a moderator) regretted posting some of the things i did, because they sometimes deviated from the thread topic. However, there was no anger between David and I, which is a crucial difference IMO.
Thinking about it, both David and I had some of our posts deleted by John, but i did not complain.
Due to the threads being locked, you can still obtain some technical information from them if you look through them, thats why i locked them, and chose not to simply delete them.
This gives you, and others, the opportunity to ask any relevant technical questions from the locked post, hopefully eliminating the cr4p.
Try and remember that a lot of the posts have been edited, and if you have not seen the originals, then you dont know what went on.
You will also note that smilies are not always used, which again makes a difference.
I am all for having a great laugh, but not at the expense of others.
Also try and picture it from a "Genuine" scooby newbies point of view, reading some of the things discussed in there would scare them sh1tless.
Go forward from here, use what you think are the good bits from those posts, and start a new thread if you have any questions.
Steven
05 February 2003, 05:56 PM
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I'm a newbie, and the most helpfull threads are the ones being locked!!
All I see is a good thread, good discussion, very informitive, and then for some reason, not known to most of us, someone spits their dummy out, and the thread get's locked
All I see is a good thread, good discussion, very informitive, and then for some reason, not known to most of us, someone spits their dummy out, and the thread get's locked
05 February 2003, 06:29 PM
#12
Listen guys, things have gone too far and i am not going to risk losing people like David Wallis from this forum because of people being bitches all the time.
Read the comments on this page http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...=172859&Page=4 now if after reading that you cant see there is a problem here then i have no answer for you.
All i am asking you to do is start afresh and keep the post's non personal and factual. It isnt me who is complaining about the way people are fighting, it's the readers and contributors of this BBS (although i agree with them).
If you dont have the ability to discuss things in a civilised manner then dont post in this forum. If you do post in a civilised manner, then you wont hear a word from me, even if i disagree with what you are saying. You cant say i havent been fair in the past or that i have been delete/lock happy.
Some of the problems may be perception, but you know for sure when you are trying to wind someone up or put accross your message in a way that isnt helpfull, i am asking you to spend a little more time considering how you express your points of view. If i see threads turning into slanging matches of backbiting i will do something about them. I expect Steven will too.
This does not mean you cant have fun and banter, of course you can. You are inteligent people, you know the message i am trying to portray. Please lets keep things within the spirit of these forums.
Read the comments on this page http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...=172859&Page=4 now if after reading that you cant see there is a problem here then i have no answer for you.
All i am asking you to do is start afresh and keep the post's non personal and factual. It isnt me who is complaining about the way people are fighting, it's the readers and contributors of this BBS (although i agree with them).
If you dont have the ability to discuss things in a civilised manner then dont post in this forum. If you do post in a civilised manner, then you wont hear a word from me, even if i disagree with what you are saying. You cant say i havent been fair in the past or that i have been delete/lock happy.
Some of the problems may be perception, but you know for sure when you are trying to wind someone up or put accross your message in a way that isnt helpfull, i am asking you to spend a little more time considering how you express your points of view. If i see threads turning into slanging matches of backbiting i will do something about them. I expect Steven will too.
This does not mean you cant have fun and banter, of course you can. You are inteligent people, you know the message i am trying to portray. Please lets keep things within the spirit of these forums.
05 February 2003, 06:35 PM
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Andy F has basically rewritten the book for Subaru tuning over the last year and shared all his results and hard work
I guess its all down to experience. I'm a puppy compared to him. I should've asked him to design one of my uni projects instead.
05 February 2003, 07:03 PM
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I for one support Steve in his efforts to clear threads of any undertones. I don't like the subtle 'make yourself look good by making others look bad tactic'. It makes everyone adopt a 'watch their backs' attitude when posting and reading the BBS.
When independant people (watching from afar) such as John & Steve think something has gone too far, then it probably has.
Also, I think the BBS benefits from postings from commercial people, since they have the time to devote to R&D and testing etc. However, it is easy to make your affiliation apparent and make constructive comments without slagging a competitor. State facts, say who you are and why your product is good, but leave out the 'mail me offline' and subtley negative stuff.
Until something like this becomes your career, it can be hard to understand why people won't share all information or want to charge you for information or a service. Be grateful for the information that is given, and respect the individual's right to divulge whatever he/she sees fit.
It's interesting how brave people are in email and on the BBS. When an issue is expressed by phone or face to face, there's almost never a problem. But people get braver when the communication is indirect, and it often looks like people are gonna go for the jugular! If I wouldn't say something to someone's face, then I wouldn't post it here - I think that's a good rule of thumb.
Not commenting on any particular threads here, btw. Just general comments.
Stand your ground Steve & John, even if you get a bit of **** for it.
Stephen Done, EcuTek.
P.S. Oh dear, I swore. Sorry !
When independant people (watching from afar) such as John & Steve think something has gone too far, then it probably has.
Also, I think the BBS benefits from postings from commercial people, since they have the time to devote to R&D and testing etc. However, it is easy to make your affiliation apparent and make constructive comments without slagging a competitor. State facts, say who you are and why your product is good, but leave out the 'mail me offline' and subtley negative stuff.
Until something like this becomes your career, it can be hard to understand why people won't share all information or want to charge you for information or a service. Be grateful for the information that is given, and respect the individual's right to divulge whatever he/she sees fit.
It's interesting how brave people are in email and on the BBS. When an issue is expressed by phone or face to face, there's almost never a problem. But people get braver when the communication is indirect, and it often looks like people are gonna go for the jugular! If I wouldn't say something to someone's face, then I wouldn't post it here - I think that's a good rule of thumb.
Not commenting on any particular threads here, btw. Just general comments.
Stand your ground Steve & John, even if you get a bit of **** for it.
Stephen Done, EcuTek.
P.S. Oh dear, I swore. Sorry !
05 February 2003, 07:04 PM
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there are many good contributors on this forum,not just andy.the main reason I used him is because I remember in his early days,he got a lot of stick over questions and his plans for his car.he has hung around and proved everyone wrong.
I have to admit to being confused to why david wallis and pavlo paul are not enjoying the forum these days as I know both are very respected in here.
non personal and factualI am sorry but there seem to be double standards here.someone can post a superchip,might in their opinion be crap and might cause your car to blow and this stays, when a thread questioning a turbo or something more established gets questioned.
I have to admit to being confused to why david wallis and pavlo paul are not enjoying the forum these days as I know both are very respected in here.
non personal and factualI am sorry but there seem to be double standards here.someone can post a superchip,might in their opinion be crap and might cause your car to blow and this stays, when a thread questioning a turbo or something more established gets questioned.
05 February 2003, 10:36 PM
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Lol @ Stephen Done ...oops, is that suggestive? 
I *really* think, if you could dilute all the rubbish posted recently, that there is no real beef between Mark and Andy (oh, I said it...must be drunk....). Andy is a 'wind-up merchant extraodinaire', Mark has a commercial interest. The rest of us are blind....perhaps?
I get *very* good advice from every bloody person I email on this board, without exception. All I see is the trust that leads to this sort of advice being eroded from *our* reactions to any bitching, and the thread-locking excercises. Do Mark or Andy really care? I think not....maybe I'm wrong?
Sorry,
Richard
PS: OK...maybe Andy's laughing in the background....he's Scottish....but he still has less power than Mark. Maybe, probably, who knows? Wow - that's where we were 2 years ago.....
I *really* think, if you could dilute all the rubbish posted recently, that there is no real beef between Mark and Andy (oh, I said it...must be drunk....). Andy is a 'wind-up merchant extraodinaire', Mark has a commercial interest. The rest of us are blind....perhaps?
I get *very* good advice from every bloody person I email on this board, without exception. All I see is the trust that leads to this sort of advice being eroded from *our* reactions to any bitching, and the thread-locking excercises. Do Mark or Andy really care? I think not....maybe I'm wrong?
Sorry,
Richard
PS: OK...maybe Andy's laughing in the background....he's Scottish....but he still has less power than Mark. Maybe, probably, who knows? Wow - that's where we were 2 years ago.....
06 February 2003, 09:27 AM
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I do not see a problem on that page IMHO.
questions have been asked on a cars performance,it has been discussed,Harvey mentions the turbo,Mark posts the maps and Andy rules this out.please point it out if I have missed something.
I could be wrong but I would be surprises if the owner was not keen to discuss and get peoples views.
it's all rich wilds fault,he chose the rollers (PLEASE NOTE THE USE OF SMILIES)
questions have been asked on a cars performance,it has been discussed,Harvey mentions the turbo,Mark posts the maps and Andy rules this out.please point it out if I have missed something.
I could be wrong but I would be surprises if the owner was not keen to discuss and get peoples views.
it's all rich wilds fault,he chose the rollers
(PLEASE NOTE THE USE OF SMILIES)
06 February 2003, 11:20 AM
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Why am I not enjoying posting??
Becuase I read back my fmic thread and realise how different it used to be.. Something changed for the worst and I dont like it..
We'll see how it goes as I start the new project.
Still makes me laugh when I find that thread where paul thought he was lucky as his td05 had a bolt on cover.. then realised it was a vf11
David
Becuase I read back my fmic thread and realise how different it used to be.. Something changed for the worst and I dont like it..
We'll see how it goes as I start the new project.
Still makes me laugh when I find that thread where paul thought he was lucky as his td05 had a bolt on cover.. then realised it was a vf11
David
06 February 2003, 03:48 PM
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I'll tell you where the problem is, people not directly involved in the thread (Trout, Adam, David etc) started to get paranoid that Mark was being victimised. If you try hard enough, you can 'just about' relate most of the comments back to Mark in some way. BIG surprise ! as he supplies a lot of the components. I have no gripe with Mark as a supplier, I recently bought a clutch, pistons and rings from him.
It would however appear to be a crime to question a cars relativly low power output if the parts supplier has a banner ad here. It would also appear to be a sin to upset a regular poster if they contribute via a banner ad.
My questions were of a technical nature, the discussion on Christians car for example could have turned out very interesting. If Christian himself had not wished us to discuss his engine then I would respect that......but for a moderator to decide ?????
Strange there seemed to be no problem with everyone previously discussing Harveys 'low' torque and 'peaky' power band from his iON performance turbo.....even when it was untrue !!
The performance question was not intended to be a dig at Mark, he openly posted the compressor curves for example which eliminated that as an issue. The fact that the car was mapped by BRD or has a Pace intercooler appear to have been overlooked. Why was this not seen as an underhand dig at Bob ? or Pace ? or Motec ecu's or Australian engine suppliers etc etc etc.
As far as turning away readers/posters that is just cr4p ! Check the 'view' count on some of those threads !
The supposedly 'upset' posters are actually causing more harm than good IMHO by spotlighting an individual. I think they would gain more respect by indulging in a technical discussion instead of threatening take their ball home.
Andy (still a smiling happy poster)
It would however appear to be a crime to question a cars relativly low power output if the parts supplier has a banner ad here. It would also appear to be a sin to upset a regular poster if they contribute via a banner ad.
My questions were of a technical nature, the discussion on Christians car for example could have turned out very interesting. If Christian himself had not wished us to discuss his engine then I would respect that......but for a moderator to decide ?????
Strange there seemed to be no problem with everyone previously discussing Harveys 'low' torque and 'peaky' power band from his iON performance turbo.....even when it was untrue !!
The performance question was not intended to be a dig at Mark, he openly posted the compressor curves for example which eliminated that as an issue. The fact that the car was mapped by BRD or has a Pace intercooler appear to have been overlooked. Why was this not seen as an underhand dig at Bob ? or Pace ? or Motec ecu's or Australian engine suppliers etc etc etc.
As far as turning away readers/posters that is just cr4p ! Check the 'view' count on some of those threads !
The supposedly 'upset' posters are actually causing more harm than good IMHO by spotlighting an individual. I think they would gain more respect by indulging in a technical discussion instead of threatening take their ball home.
Andy (still a smiling happy poster)
06 February 2003, 04:13 PM
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i never for one said mark was being victimised, and I dont think he supplied many parts for christians car apart from the turbo??
I was speaking to christian at well lane.. there is no way the turbo according to some is a problem.. you for one andy would jump on that compressor map as soon as possible if there was a problem.
Christian and I discussed intercooler pipework and air filters etc at well lane, and I offered to help out with custom pipework if required.. I doubt it is the filter.. so its either the core doesnt flow enough air, the pipe work on the exit is too small.. or the inlet tract / throttle body / heads / cams / valves are an issue..
Would exhaust cause problems? Headers?? System??
up-pipe was big.. downpipe was big, and exhaust was a hiper.. so no not really.
If we are going to be honest then add the following to your VIP list and have a read.. it gets interesting.
Scoobeee http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/VIPTh...MemberID=16288
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Scoobert http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/VIPTh...MemberID=19246
Now im sorry but if you read these forums often as I do then someone new comes along and can put a very good technical argument across.. after just muppet posts then it looks to me as if they want to do something / pass comments that they wouldnt normally do via email or over the phone..
Im not saying these are aimed at anyone in particular, but I just dont want to get dragged into these arguments...
Im am quite happy in who I buy my parts from, its your choice there is no monopoly.. Im speaking to a few people at locating a turbo, and so far im undecided..
David 
cant think of anymore smiles.
I was speaking to christian at well lane.. there is no way the turbo according to some is a problem.. you for one andy would jump on that compressor map as soon as possible if there was a problem.
Christian and I discussed intercooler pipework and air filters etc at well lane, and I offered to help out with custom pipework if required.. I doubt it is the filter.. so its either the core doesnt flow enough air, the pipe work on the exit is too small.. or the inlet tract / throttle body / heads / cams / valves are an issue..
Would exhaust cause problems? Headers?? System??
up-pipe was big.. downpipe was big, and exhaust was a hiper.. so no not really.
If we are going to be honest then add the following to your VIP list and have a read.. it gets interesting.
Scoobeee http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/VIPTh...MemberID=16288
NOS Nova http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/VIPTh...MemberID=17611
Scoobert http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/VIPTh...MemberID=19246
Now im sorry but if you read these forums often as I do then someone new comes along and can put a very good technical argument across.. after just muppet posts then it looks to me as if they want to do something / pass comments that they wouldnt normally do via email or over the phone..
Im not saying these are aimed at anyone in particular, but I just dont want to get dragged into these arguments...
Im am quite happy in who I buy my parts from, its your choice there is no monopoly.. Im speaking to a few people at locating a turbo, and so far im undecided..
David
cant think of anymore smiles.
06 February 2003, 04:16 PM
#24
Thanks for that Andy, as ever you're contribution is welcome.
Steven and I have been clear as to how this forum will be moderated in future. If you don't like that i suggest you contact the webmaster.
Have a nice day
John
Steven and I have been clear as to how this forum will be moderated in future. If you don't like that i suggest you contact the webmaster.
Have a nice day
John
02 May 2003, 04:34 PM
#25
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Yery dissappointed with this 
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=173402&Page=1
Where exactly is the unacceptable content in this thread ?
I for one, have been only technical or helpful in my discussion
The thread had far from run its course, I was in the middle of a discussion attempting to help Christian with the AP22 and Steve Mc Culloch to locate a turbocharger.
Ironic that probably the most useless comment in the whole thread is from Steven !
[Edited by Andy.F - 2/5/2003 4:46:25 PM]
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=173402&Page=1
Where exactly is the unacceptable content in this thread ?
I for one, have been only technical or helpful in my discussion
The thread had far from run its course, I was in the middle of a discussion attempting to help Christian with the AP22 and Steve Mc Culloch to locate a turbocharger.
Ironic that probably the most useless comment in the whole thread is from Steven !
Neither was i, just read the results list in northern, like last week, silly tw@t
[Edited by Andy.F - 2/5/2003 4:46:25 PM]
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