IC Spray for MY00
06 March 2002, 01:51 PM
#1
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I too am considering water spray, so I'm interested in where STI05V has the tank.
STI05V,
I noticed you're from Sydney.
Who's dyno did you put your car on?
Cheers,
Wrexy.
[Edited by WREXY - 6/3/2002 1:53:51 PM]
STI05V,
I noticed you're from Sydney.
Who's dyno did you put your car on?Cheers,
Wrexy.
[Edited by WREXY - 6/3/2002 1:53:51 PM]
29 May 2002, 08:39 AM
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Has anyone fitted an IC spray on a non STI or know if it's a big job ?
I have recently purchased a MY00.
Was thinking of linking it to the "world's most useless switch" (ie the Bright switch) and having an auto and manual setting.
I have recently purchased a MY00.
Was thinking of linking it to the "world's most useless switch" (ie the Bright switch) and having an auto and manual setting.
29 May 2002, 08:57 AM
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Spraying from a container of water which is the same temp as the engine bay can't be all good. For the best effect, you should hold your water in the trunk or cabin. Of course, aside from postponing the onset of det, I highly doubt a water spray system will give much yields ie those not suffering from high-temp induced det prob should not bother.
Me (on the other hand), running in 35deg tropical climate, has a boot tank, high pressure pump and 4 high pressure nozzles discharging onto the intercooler (and one onto the oil cooler). As I said, I notice no increase in power with or without the spray. Its just that I don't want det on hot days/slow traffic!
Me (on the other hand), running in 35deg tropical climate, has a boot tank, high pressure pump and 4 high pressure nozzles discharging onto the intercooler (and one onto the oil cooler). As I said, I notice no increase in power with or without the spray. Its just that I don't want det on hot days/slow traffic!
29 May 2002, 10:55 AM
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It is more to keep the intake temperatures a few degrees cooler on the track. I'm not expecting massive differences, and if I had a det problem would go for FMIC and WI.
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29 May 2002, 02:52 PM
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Spraying from a container of water which is the same temp as the engine bay can't be all good. For the best effect, you should hold your water in the trunk or cabin.
29 May 2002, 03:10 PM
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Agree with Bruce (I read the article on the MRT web also), but thats theoretical results if you are able to atomise the water to very very fine drops and then have it evaporate it fully before contacting the intercooler surface.
Practically however, we don't get a nice air-water mist (like a spray can or airbrush for example) as we don't have a compressed air source in the car. So the evaporative effect of water is half out the window. We are now reliant more on the temp difference between the sprayed water and the engine bay. Lets just say that probably 95% of the water sprayed onto the intercooler ends up dripping onto the transmission.
Lastly, one could argue that if the evaporative theory was 100% true and the temperature differential of water contributes negligibly to the equation, why has STI moved the water reservoir in the Euro-spec STI, the JDM STI RA Spec C and the new S202 to the boot/trunk?
This is a case where I'd say theory differs greatly from practice.
Practically however, we don't get a nice air-water mist (like a spray can or airbrush for example) as we don't have a compressed air source in the car. So the evaporative effect of water is half out the window. We are now reliant more on the temp difference between the sprayed water and the engine bay. Lets just say that probably 95% of the water sprayed onto the intercooler ends up dripping onto the transmission.
Lastly, one could argue that if the evaporative theory was 100% true and the temperature differential of water contributes negligibly to the equation, why has STI moved the water reservoir in the Euro-spec STI, the JDM STI RA Spec C and the new S202 to the boot/trunk?
This is a case where I'd say theory differs greatly from practice.
29 May 2002, 03:13 PM
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Let me ask this from the flipside.
Bruce, if your theory is indeed true, can you say that its better to boil water to 100degC, and then spray it onto the intercooler as the high temperature will help in the cooling by having a high rate of evaporation?
Bruce, if your theory is indeed true, can you say that its better to boil water to 100degC, and then spray it onto the intercooler as the high temperature will help in the cooling by having a high rate of evaporation?
29 May 2002, 03:18 PM
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Last one: This is from the MRT site
********************************
WHY adding ice is not worth the effort
The specific heat of water is 1 calorie or 4.184 joules absorbed to HEAT 1gram of water by 1degC
The latent heat of water is 540 calories or 2260 joules absorbed to EVAPORATE 1gram of water.
In other words the heat absorbed by water is negligible (in massive volume sense NO evaporation) BUT when it is evaporated the benefits are huge.
around 5 to 10 times greater
Misting of water is important but not at the expense of reduced volume!
Being GENEROUS, the use of ice water in an I/c spray reduces spray temperature from PERHAPS 34degC to 4degC. This gives an absorption benefit of 30 calories or 125 joules per gram of water. Sounds impressive? Not REALLY.
This is a gain of less than 5% on the 606 calories (540 + 66) absorbed by 1gram of water at 34degC.
Brett Middleton
MRT performance
********************************
No where is it stated explicitly that we only realise the evaporative benefit of water IF ALL THE WATER EVAPORATES! Which as we all know, is clearly not the case. The percentage of water that evaporates is not discussed in this article.
********************************
WHY adding ice is not worth the effort
The specific heat of water is 1 calorie or 4.184 joules absorbed to HEAT 1gram of water by 1degC
The latent heat of water is 540 calories or 2260 joules absorbed to EVAPORATE 1gram of water.
In other words the heat absorbed by water is negligible (in massive volume sense NO evaporation) BUT when it is evaporated the benefits are huge.
around 5 to 10 times greater
Misting of water is important but not at the expense of reduced volume!
Being GENEROUS, the use of ice water in an I/c spray reduces spray temperature from PERHAPS 34degC to 4degC. This gives an absorption benefit of 30 calories or 125 joules per gram of water. Sounds impressive? Not REALLY.
This is a gain of less than 5% on the 606 calories (540 + 66) absorbed by 1gram of water at 34degC.
Brett Middleton
MRT performance
********************************
No where is it stated explicitly that we only realise the evaporative benefit of water IF ALL THE WATER EVAPORATES! Which as we all know, is clearly not the case. The percentage of water that evaporates is not discussed in this article.
29 May 2002, 05:33 PM
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Hi,
Look.... it looks good ok..LOL thats all im bothered about..
and i can say i have an intecooler water spray system primative may be but i have one......... your tank is in the boot mine is in the engine bay.... at the front of the car that recieves the most air flow.... i dont spend that much time in traffic to heat up the water in the washer bottle either.... plus i need to get my shopping in the boot.....
Just a quick question surely the inside of the boot will heat up a certain amount in the car any way i.e from body heat e.t.c say to room temp 21 Oc... and if the ambient temp is 15 Oc and my water tank is exposed to this all the time then surly my water is colder..????
It is also far simpler to have it in the engine bay.... and if what you are saying is true i.e there being no difference felt then it doesnt matter that its in the boot or engine bay....
Dan
Look.... it looks good ok..LOL thats all im bothered about..
and i can say i have an intecooler water spray system primative may be but i have one......... your tank is in the boot mine is in the engine bay.... at the front of the car that recieves the most air flow.... i dont spend that much time in traffic to heat up the water in the washer bottle either.... plus i need to get my shopping in the boot..... Just a quick question surely the inside of the boot will heat up a certain amount in the car any way i.e from body heat e.t.c say to room temp 21 Oc... and if the ambient temp is 15 Oc and my water tank is exposed to this all the time then surly my water is colder..????
It is also far simpler to have it in the engine bay.... and if what you are saying is true i.e there being no difference felt then it doesnt matter that its in the boot or engine bay....
Dan
29 May 2002, 11:14 PM
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Well it may be a waste of time, but tonight:
Ambient 12C
Favourite roads
Max intake temperature during thrash with no spray maximum temperature 36 degrees, with spray 32 degrees or 24 or 20 above ambient respectively. Hopefully on a hot day will make more difference, but 4 degrees is worth having - probably another degree or two of advance before knock correction
Ambient 12C
Favourite roads
Max intake temperature during thrash with no spray maximum temperature 36 degrees, with spray 32 degrees or 24 or 20 above ambient respectively. Hopefully on a hot day will make more difference, but 4 degrees is worth having - probably another degree or two of advance before knock correction
29 May 2002, 11:25 PM
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And before anyone asks, yes my driving on these (empty ) roads is consistent enough to tell, and the figures were typical for the state of tune of the car this week, and the spray run followed the non spray run so would favour the non spray run.
Surely the water at whatever temperature will increase conduction, improve the heatsink effect because of the high specific heat capacity of water, and even though it is nowhere near BP, the evaporative effect of wind moving across it at xxx mph into the quite impressive looking mist should help a bit? Whatever, this is easy and cheap, and will be handy on the track.
The headlight washer motor is powerful enough to blow a lightly clamped hose off which took me 20 minutes of fiddling to get on.
) roads is consistent enough to tell, and the figures were typical for the state of tune of the car this week, and the spray run followed the non spray run so would favour the non spray run.Surely the water at whatever temperature will increase conduction, improve the heatsink effect because of the high specific heat capacity of water, and even though it is nowhere near BP, the evaporative effect of wind moving across it at xxx mph into the quite impressive looking mist should help a bit? Whatever, this is easy and cheap, and will be handy on the track.
The headlight washer motor is powerful enough to blow a lightly clamped hose off which took me 20 minutes of fiddling to get on.
29 May 2002, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
"Look.... it looks good ok..LOL thats all im bothered about.. and i can say i have an intecooler water spray system primative may be but i have one......... your tank is in the boot mine is in the engine bay.... at the front of the car that recieves the most air flow.... i dont spend that much time in traffic to heat up the water in the washer bottle either.... plus i need to get my shopping in the boot..... "
Not flaming or anything, but do you really think that the higher airflow in the front will make the water cooler than if you had it in the boot? The amount of heat our engines produce is unreal. I also agree that the boot does heat up a little, but no-where as bad as the engine bay. Frankly, I think the best place for the tank is the cabin!
"Look.... it looks good ok..LOL thats all im bothered about.. and i can say i have an intecooler water spray system primative may be but i have one......... your tank is in the boot mine is in the engine bay.... at the front of the car that recieves the most air flow.... i dont spend that much time in traffic to heat up the water in the washer bottle either.... plus i need to get my shopping in the boot..... "
Not flaming or anything, but do you really think that the higher airflow in the front will make the water cooler than if you had it in the boot? The amount of heat our engines produce is unreal. I also agree that the boot does heat up a little, but no-where as bad as the engine bay. Frankly, I think the best place for the tank is the cabin!
29 May 2002, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
"Surely the water at whatever temperature will increase conduction, improve the heatsink effect because of the high specific heat capacity of water, and even though it is nowhere near BP, the evaporative effect of wind moving across it at xxx mph into the quite impressive looking mist should help a bit? Whatever, this is easy and cheap, and will be handy on the track."
This is my point John. Assuming the evaporative rate of water is negligible between water at 30degC and water at 50degC (ie latent heat absorption is the same), having water at 30degC will give us the additional conductive and heat sink benefits.
"Surely the water at whatever temperature will increase conduction, improve the heatsink effect because of the high specific heat capacity of water, and even though it is nowhere near BP, the evaporative effect of wind moving across it at xxx mph into the quite impressive looking mist should help a bit? Whatever, this is easy and cheap, and will be handy on the track."
This is my point John. Assuming the evaporative rate of water is negligible between water at 30degC and water at 50degC (ie latent heat absorption is the same), having water at 30degC will give us the additional conductive and heat sink benefits.
30 May 2002, 05:56 AM
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Thermodynamics 101
It takes 418.6 kJ/kg to heat water from 0 to 100 degree C.
Heat of vaporization is 2260kJ/kg
So, 5 times more energy is used to evaporate the water than to heat it all the way from zero to one hundred C.
And don't fool yourselves with thinking they placed the IC tank in the boot to keep the heat down. Ever tried fitting a tank for the IC water up front? Well, there is no space for it. And plumbing into the washer bottle is just plain irritating- it is much too small, and you have to have some kind of cleaning agent in there too.
Do yourself a favour, next time after a drive. Get out of the car. Now hold your hand in front of the jet, and press the IC spray button...Feel how nice and warm the water is (you can almost use it to make coffee). The IC spray tubes in the engine bay (although they come from the boot, they actually do go in here) are filled with water. The water in the tubes heat up - and gets sprayed on the IC. It takes about 2 or 3 sprays (that's 10 seconds), to get cooler water out of it.
And yes, spraying WATER at 100 degree C on the IC would not be as bad as you think (if the car is moving, anyway). The moment it lands on the IC heat transfer will take place in the wrong direction (but on a very small scale, as WATER at 100 C doesn't contain that much energy, so there's not that much to give/trade off). But, the water will evaporate quickly taking a lot more energy with it.
The temperature of a thin layer of water in an OPEN system means very little.
Spraying steam at 100 C onto the IC will be a different story...
It takes 418.6 kJ/kg to heat water from 0 to 100 degree C.
Heat of vaporization is 2260kJ/kg
So, 5 times more energy is used to evaporate the water than to heat it all the way from zero to one hundred C.
And don't fool yourselves with thinking they placed the IC tank in the boot to keep the heat down. Ever tried fitting a tank for the IC water up front? Well, there is no space for it. And plumbing into the washer bottle is just plain irritating- it is much too small, and you have to have some kind of cleaning agent in there too.
Do yourself a favour, next time after a drive. Get out of the car. Now hold your hand in front of the jet, and press the IC spray button...Feel how nice and warm the water is (you can almost use it to make coffee). The IC spray tubes in the engine bay (although they come from the boot, they actually do go in here) are filled with water. The water in the tubes heat up - and gets sprayed on the IC. It takes about 2 or 3 sprays (that's 10 seconds), to get cooler water out of it.
And yes, spraying WATER at 100 degree C on the IC would not be as bad as you think (if the car is moving, anyway). The moment it lands on the IC heat transfer will take place in the wrong direction (but on a very small scale, as WATER at 100 C doesn't contain that much energy, so there's not that much to give/trade off). But, the water will evaporate quickly taking a lot more energy with it.
The temperature of a thin layer of water in an OPEN system means very little.
Spraying steam at 100 C onto the IC will be a different story...
30 May 2002, 06:07 AM
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This is my point John. Assuming the evaporative rate of water is negligible between water at 30degC and water at 50degC (ie latent heat absorption is the same), having water at 30degC will give us the additional conductive and heat sink benefits.
You are right, 418.6/5 kJ/kg = 83kJ/kg... (energy diff between 30 and 50 C)
Compared to the Heat of vaporization of 2260kJ/kg...
It will be about 3.6% more efficient...
What additional conductive properties are you talking about?
I'd bet the IC is more effective at conducting heat than water is (so the less water on it, the better). And why would water at 30 C be better at this anyway than at 50 C?
30 May 2002, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
"As far as the heat sink benefits:
You are right, 418.6/5 kJ/kg = 83kJ/kg... (energy diff between 30 and 50 C)
Compared to the Heat of vaporization of 2260kJ/kg...
It will be about 3.6% more efficient..."
Again, you are using the assumption that ALL the water evaporates, which as I said before is clearly not the case.
Can you address this point please?
I have already conceded that your theory holds true if ALL the water evaporates. But we all know this doesn't happen!
"As far as the heat sink benefits:
You are right, 418.6/5 kJ/kg = 83kJ/kg... (energy diff between 30 and 50 C)
Compared to the Heat of vaporization of 2260kJ/kg...
It will be about 3.6% more efficient..."
Again, you are using the assumption that ALL the water evaporates, which as I said before is clearly not the case.
Can you address this point please?
I have already conceded that your theory holds true if ALL the water evaporates. But we all know this doesn't happen!
30 May 2002, 08:30 AM
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"Thermodynamics 101
It takes 418.6 kJ/kg to heat water from 0 to 100 degree C.
Heat of vaporization is 2260kJ/kg"
Here's your assumption again.
Fact is, you only take 2260kJ of heat from the intercooler IF you evaporate 1kg of water COMPLETELY. Do you know for sure what percentage of water evaporates? I don't.
"And don't fool yourselves with thinking they placed the IC tank in the boot to keep the heat down. Ever tried fitting a tank for the IC water up front? Well, there is no space for it. And plumbing into the washer bottle is just plain irritating- it is much too small, and you have to have some kind of cleaning agent in there too."
Yes, my car came with the front mounted IC tank. And unless you have inside information from STI, I still believe that they moved the tank to the boot for (1) more space hence bigger capacity (2) cooler temps.
Anyway, who knows what the Japanese Boffins do... Your guess is as good as mine.
"Do yourself a favour, next time after a drive. Get out of the car. Now hold your hand in front of the jet, and press the IC spray button...Feel how nice and warm the water is (you can almost use it to make coffee). The IC spray tubes in the engine bay (although they come from the boot, they actually do go in here) are filled with water. The water in the tubes heat up - and gets sprayed on the IC. It takes about 2 or 3 sprays (that's 10 seconds), to get cooler water out of it."
Yes, I know that the jet is hot for the first couple of sprays. But isn't it better having to spray 3 times to get cold water, compared with 100 times and still get hot water?
Anyway, I'm working on insulation for my plumbing.
"And yes, spraying WATER at 100 degree C on the IC would not be as bad as you think (if the car is moving, anyway)."
Whoever wants to believe this point can go ahead and do so. I'm not going to argue it.
Ok, no more *heated discussion*, pardon the pun. I'd rather my tank in the boot, as (1) it gives me a bigger capacity (2) its cooler (3) I more inclinde to believe my theory that we don't achieve 100% evaporation - heck, do we even achieve 20%?
[Edited by RT - 5/30/2002 9:01:32 AM]
[Edited by RT - 5/30/2002 9:05:49 AM]
It takes 418.6 kJ/kg to heat water from 0 to 100 degree C.
Heat of vaporization is 2260kJ/kg"
Here's your assumption again.
Fact is, you only take 2260kJ of heat from the intercooler IF you evaporate 1kg of water COMPLETELY. Do you know for sure what percentage of water evaporates? I don't.
"And don't fool yourselves with thinking they placed the IC tank in the boot to keep the heat down. Ever tried fitting a tank for the IC water up front? Well, there is no space for it. And plumbing into the washer bottle is just plain irritating- it is much too small, and you have to have some kind of cleaning agent in there too."
Yes, my car came with the front mounted IC tank. And unless you have inside information from STI, I still believe that they moved the tank to the boot for (1) more space hence bigger capacity (2) cooler temps.
Anyway, who knows what the Japanese Boffins do... Your guess is as good as mine.
"Do yourself a favour, next time after a drive. Get out of the car. Now hold your hand in front of the jet, and press the IC spray button...Feel how nice and warm the water is (you can almost use it to make coffee). The IC spray tubes in the engine bay (although they come from the boot, they actually do go in here) are filled with water. The water in the tubes heat up - and gets sprayed on the IC. It takes about 2 or 3 sprays (that's 10 seconds), to get cooler water out of it."
Yes, I know that the jet is hot for the first couple of sprays. But isn't it better having to spray 3 times to get cold water, compared with 100 times and still get hot water?
Anyway, I'm working on insulation for my plumbing.
"And yes, spraying WATER at 100 degree C on the IC would not be as bad as you think (if the car is moving, anyway)."
Whoever wants to believe this point can go ahead and do so. I'm not going to argue it.
Ok, no more *heated discussion*, pardon the pun. I'd rather my tank in the boot, as (1) it gives me a bigger capacity (2) its cooler (3) I more inclinde to believe my theory that we don't achieve 100% evaporation - heck, do we even achieve 20%?
[Edited by RT - 5/30/2002 9:01:32 AM]
[Edited by RT - 5/30/2002 9:05:49 AM]
30 May 2002, 08:35 AM
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"What additional conductive properties are you talking about?
I'd bet the IC is more effective at conducting heat than water is (so the less water on it, the better). And why would water at 30 C be better at this anyway than at 50 C?"
Forgot to address this point.
Is aluminium-water or aluminium-air (contact) conduction better? I'll have to check this one out. I'm not sure.
Water at 30degC is preferable as the heat transfer from aluminium to water will be faster than with water at 50degC. Steeper temp gradient. Surely I'm not wrong on this one!
I'd bet the IC is more effective at conducting heat than water is (so the less water on it, the better). And why would water at 30 C be better at this anyway than at 50 C?"
Forgot to address this point.
Is aluminium-water or aluminium-air (contact) conduction better? I'll have to check this one out. I'm not sure.
Water at 30degC is preferable as the heat transfer from aluminium to water will be faster than with water at 50degC. Steeper temp gradient. Surely I'm not wrong on this one!
30 May 2002, 10:00 AM
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Again, you are using the assumption that ALL the water evaporates, which as I said before is clearly not the case.
Can you address this point please?
I have already conceded that your theory holds true if ALL the water evaporates. But we all know this doesn't happen!
Can you address this point please?
I have already conceded that your theory holds true if ALL the water evaporates. But we all know this doesn't happen!
If it doesn't evaporate, how long does it stay on the IC? Long enough to absorb a lot of energy? I think not. I reckon water falling off the IC can be ignored.
30 May 2002, 10:05 AM
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Forgot to address this point.
Is aluminium-water or aluminium-air (contact) conduction better? I'll have to check this one out. I'm not sure.
Water at 30degC is preferable as the heat transfer from aluminium to water will be faster than with water at 50degC. Steeper temp gradient. Surely I'm not wrong on this one!
Is aluminium-water or aluminium-air (contact) conduction better? I'll have to check this one out. I'm not sure.
Water at 30degC is preferable as the heat transfer from aluminium to water will be faster than with water at 50degC. Steeper temp gradient. Surely I'm not wrong on this one!
Aluminium-Water I'd guess, closer contact.
Second point:
Up untill the dynamic equilibrium point...And then the water evaporates
30 May 2002, 10:18 AM
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Didn't think this topic would generate such a debate
Thanks for all the information though.
I've just bought the car so have yet to engage in any projects, but this was one which was going to be more likely than not, since sitting in snarled up traffic in Edinburgh would generate a bit of heat around the IC from the engine.
Thanks for all the information though.
I've just bought the car so have yet to engage in any projects, but this was one which was going to be more likely than not, since sitting in snarled up traffic in Edinburgh would generate a bit of heat around the IC from the engine.
30 May 2002, 10:41 AM
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Just a bit of friendly banter
I had automatic IC spray kits on my previous two Scoobies (MY00 Turbo and MY01 WRX)...How much it helps? I have no idea...I press the Sti's switch every now and again, just for the hell of it...Think an automatic setup would have been so much better...
I had automatic IC spray kits on my previous two Scoobies (MY00 Turbo and MY01 WRX)...How much it helps? I have no idea...I press the Sti's switch every now and again, just for the hell of it...
Think an automatic setup would have been so much better...
30 May 2002, 11:58 AM
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I read that the auto setting on a STI Type R usually drained the tank pretty quick.
But it's always nice to fiddle with a switch IMHO ;o)
Something pyschological......
Oh, not exactly the subject here, but has anyone any experience of NOS in a Scooby ?
I remember NOS the first time around (ie before Fast and Furious!)
But it's always nice to fiddle with a switch IMHO ;o)
Something pyschological......
Oh, not exactly the subject here, but has anyone any experience of NOS in a Scooby ?
I remember NOS the first time around (ie before Fast and Furious!)
30 May 2002, 12:45 PM
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On the point of using a lot of water, has everyone read that Autospeed article which showed fairly well how most of the "simple" spray systems waste most of the water used......
Matt
Matt