NicH

Just read some stuff on there web site and i'm sure its very wrong.

Anyone any idea's ?

Markus

Please explain!

What is incorect?

Trouser @TSL

TSL has been trading as a Subaru specialist for 5 years now... nearly 8 years as a Saab specialist concurrently.


What information on the website do you believe to be incorrect?

Cheers

Paul
TSL

NicH

Just read this about pro Boost.

"Silkolene Pro boost will effectively raise the RON value of standard 95 RON fuel up to 97-98 and takes Super Unleaded up to a phenomenal 100-101 RON."

This is impossible.

95 RON 2 points, thats 97 if points relate to RON, how can this take Super over 100.

Thats all.

Phil

TROUSER

hav'nt you left yet?

Phil

NicH

Not trying to cause an issue, just thought it might be a new company and a simple mistake.

I will ask my friend who works there, whats the Point related to.

Regards
NicH

Trouser @TSL

NicH .. This is information that has been supplied to us by Chief development chemist John Rowland of Silkolene. So it's on fairly good authority..

I imagine from your scepticism.. you haven't tried any. This is one the better boosters on the market that produces pretty genuine results.. particularly on grey cars that require a better quality fuel. also used by many shoestring racers who can't afford "proper" fuel


We check and test every product ourselves in addition to any data given to us by any manufacturer. This one is no exception.

cheers

Paul
TSL

NicH

Sorry.

OK show me the math's that takes 95 ro 98

Then show me the formula used to make 97 to 101

That 1 more RON from SUL to NUL and considering it will make less than 3 if added to a greater RON fuel to begin with, this is impossible.

Sorry but the information is incorrect, if you have tested this you will have LAB results then ? any graphs !!

IF it adds 3 it will make just over 99 with SUL.

This has nothing to do with anything else, just GCSE maths.

Regards
NicH

[Edited by NicH - 5/17/2002 4:37:27 PM]

Trouser @TSL

"Silkolene Pro boost will effectively raise the RON value of standard 95 RON fuel up to 97-98 and takes Super Unleaded up to a phenomenal 100-101 RON."

That's what i wrote... .. a rise in value of between 2 and 3 points.. most decent boosters (NF, pro boost, Millers etc) are easily capable of this kind of hike.. 2 to 3 points is not a big boast so I'm struggling to see the whole argument here.

If your mate works for Silkolene.. he will obviously know John... who I am sure will be delighted to explain it to him.. and you. I can't pretend to be that clever.

We have put a graph on the site.;confused: we wanted to be sure the product worked and had some kind of effect on driveability before we sold it. The grapohs at Well lane show some change in the BHP/Torque/RPM relationship before and after pro boost was added. More

I am off on my holidays now.. If you have any more questions on Pro Boost please feel free to call dad on 0115 9377200 who knows far more than I do.. he can also put you in touch with Silkolene if you so wish

cheers

Paul
TSL

Trouser @TSL

also please remember... a lot of companies "super" unleaded is 98.. most of the Esso's and BP's round here at TSL are 98 not 97.. .. so 2 points would be 100 and three would be 101..

.... still very

Optimax is obviously even higher still and is classed as a "super" unleaded.

Mike Tuckwood

98 SUL does not exist anywhere anymore. (Not in this country anyway).

Any pump still marked 98 is incorrectly marked from before it was dropped to 97RON some considerable time ago.

Shell Optimax is different again with a nominal RON rating of 98.6 (IIRC).

Any octane booster claiming a 2 RON increase with 95RON is unlikely to achieve the same increase when mixed with 97RON or Optimax. The gains are not linear.


Mike.

elgordano

Can't see what the issue is here !!
If you don't think it 'does what it says on the tin' then don't buy it. TSL are well respected around these parts and always offer impartial advice even if it measn they loose a sale.
Gordo

dingy

NF if used at x percent to give 95 RON 98, will not take 97 to 100-101.

As NicH says its impossible, Laws of Chemistry / Maths / Physic's

Plus Pro Boost doesn't even make 3 RON with NUL, so how it can make 101 with SUL is beyond me.

I live in derby work in notts, NOT ONE ESSO station sells 98 RON SUL.

Another piece of incorrect information

alistair

Perhaps it's in the roundings - there are no decimal places shown

Huxley

Dont want to get on the band waggon but what's the point of getting in a tiff over this, it makes a difference when you put the stuff in the tank and makes it go better that's all we need to know, why worry about a point or two it works so buy some.


Trouser we will be up to see you soon for a downpipe!!


Huxley

I might have some info on some super white side light LED's as well for you if your intrested.

CraigH

But the good thing about ProBoost, is according to the TSL graphs, it gives your Scoob a torque curve similar to a Beemer 330d or a WRC car

dingy

I Guess its important if you are giving out wrong information to customers.

Baby Blue

If you have a major problem with this then maybe you should be taking it up with the manufacturer not the third party. They can only quote the information supplied.

Having only met up with TSL once, from what I have seen they appear to be a very well respected specialist in these parts and I would trust their opinion. I don't think they would publish these figures off the tops of their heads ... the word "libulus" springs to mind.

Have to say though that I don't begin to understand the RON figures at all. I just buy Optimax 'cause the car feels better but couldn't give **** what the RON level is!

At the end of the day if your car goes better with this booster why does it realy matter.

BB

Edit to change spelling "libellous"

[Edited by Baby Blue - 5/22/2002 2:05:12 PM]

Mike Tuckwood

Ok maybe this isn't my place but I'll have a crack at it anyway. I'm sure someone will step in and speak out if they disagree with it? After all, I've been an active club member and BBS supporter contributor for a long while now, as my post count should confirm (none in the puppet forum).

Not really, I read all my supplier information as well and some of it is "Wildly optimistic" and with no technical data to support it THEY are responsible for quoting what they quote, and as was the point of the original post, the figures quoted by TSL (apparently supplied by the manufacturer) simply did not add up correctly. (New calculator required Paul)?


Which is where I believe the claim/errors do not hold water, if you're going to make claims about a product that may be questioned, you need to know that they are bang on and will stand scrutiny (which we're all very good at on Scoobynet),
these clearly did not stand up to that scrutiny.

That must have been one hell of a single encounter to glean that level of overview and trust?


I'm sure it must have been a simple error and as such I would hope that nobody would be offended enough to consider suing TSL for libel?

LOL speak to Paul that should make for an interesting conversation?

But we do, and that's why your car feels better 'cos the RON rating is higher.... these things are all connected.

Because people on here may be lead into a false belief that 'X' is better than 'Y' based on incorrect/innacurate information.


Mike.

CraigH

Agree with Mike - it is TSL who are responsible for the data on their site.

Now Octane boosters are good, but to claim that Proboost can give you 100lb ft extra at 1500rpm is just plain ridiculous.

It's not going to happen - any petrochemist will tell you that it is not possible. We've been thru that all before though - it can only be a dodgy RR run. And TSL shouldn't post that info without proper testing, rather than 1 obviously weird occurance.

I once got 488hp on a rollers - honest - was with NF though so I can see why

chiark

Just a quick post to make the point that Trouser's on hols at the moment IIRC, so this may not be sorted until he gets back

[edited due to unhelpful comment by me]

[Edited by chiark - 5/24/2002 8:26:27 AM]

Trouser @TSL

Back from hols now...

made a few calls .. to check ones facts... and other peoples.

Call number one.. in person. Our local Esso station (A60 Loughborough). Present.. Me, Their manager, And Richard Bulmer Motec Top Bloke. Their pumps show 97 RON on the handle.. The tanker drivers delivery note shows 98 RON. This was also done to ensure that the Motec that their MD Richard was here mapping was done so on the correct fuel. Those notes for each drop are the most accurate info relating to grade..

Call number two.. Esso Helpdesk ( 01483 774200) to make sure that we all haven't mis-read the printed note or gone mad. they kindly confirmed the grade of fuel. Certain stations do have it apparently.. ring them and they can tell you if your's is one of them.

call number three.. Silkolene Technical (08701 200400).. John Rowland. He confirms once again that in realistic terms.. Pro Boost added as suggested on the tin will give an effective rise in RON 0f 2-3 over the base figure. ..as will most of the boosters sold by our competitors

call number four.. Well Lane Turbo centre (01924 441364) Dean (sales manager).. They seemed most confident on the accuracy of their graphs and rolling road. More importantly they were adamant that the two graphs were done back to back to try and give the most realistic comparisons. They were also very interested to hear personally from anybody who feels they are producing misleading figures.. I'm sure their solicitor will be delighted for you to put it in writing... but then of course I forgot.. you already did


Pro Boost was first launched in 1980 we are reliably informed.. making in the longest running octane improver in the UK market.. easy to see why people want a pop.

Phone numbers are there kids... don't take my word for it.... after all it's a lot of trust to put in one visit or something

cheers

paul

Phil

You tell them Paul

Obviousley refreshed from your Holiday



Phil

CraigH

Trouser,

Perhaps you can get Well Lane to state on here that purely by adding Proboost you will get a DYNO PROVEN 180lb ft torque at 1500rpm.

Or perhaps they will publicise the 230lb ft available at 1750rpm.
More than a Golf TDI 150. Dyno Proven of course.

Don't know why Subaru dealers use it if that's the case.

As to being around since 1980 - hmmm. Would you use an oil that was first released in 1980, or would you use the current semi or full synthetic blends?

22 years is a lot of progress. And in 1980, when they still had 5 star I believe, why use an octane booster?

Please get Well Lane to confirm their figures - perhaps they'd be prepared to prove that it does actually do this at the next rolling road day?

Trouser @TSL

Certainly sir..






also to avoid any possible confusion I will be delighted to insert the golden words (98 RON) into the now fabled sentence.. ... for those poor peeps whose local stations aint got it will then know they will only get 99-100

Cheers

Trouser @TSL

apologies for the crap photography... I have the originals if you would like a fax

I guess theirs is as accurate as any one elses... or not as the case may be..

I take your point about 22 years being a lot of progress.. That Ford Fiesta nust be rubbish by now.. its been around for ages...

Joking aside.. They have fettled it a little along the way.. in the same way that Mobil have with Mobil 1.. same logo.. different oil.

(edited as i never answered the question)



[Edited by Trouser @TSL - 5/30/2002 5:07:43 PM]

CraigH

Trouser,

I think you've missed the point entirely.......

The graph is quite obviously there, in black and white.

And it quite obviously was a run.

But it's just like me getting 488hp on a RR run - it happened but it doesn't mean it's right.

And do you honestly, 100% believe that a bog std, turbocharged, 2 litre Scoob will make 230lb ft (higher than it's supposed peak) at only 1750rpm. when it's turbo is barely spinning up?

Makes you wonder why Prodrive bother with all the palaver in getting loads of low down torque out of their Group N engines, when for 8 quid they can bung a can of Proboost in and be done
with it. Apparently

Mike Tuckwood

Sorry guys this will be another long one. Now I hate to spoil such a great story with the truth..... but... despite my commercial/competitior status with TSL, please do not read too deeply into what I'm trying to do here. I was VERY careful in my previous post to insert NO commercial aspect/slant or otherwise to it at all and I will not do it in this post either.

My personal nature simply will not allow 'innacurracies' of this level to go unchallenged. Try to see the points I'm making and decide yourself? 'The truth is out there' but appears to be being well hidden/disguised?


(I've snipped out the irrelevant points but you will see that by checking back into Pauls flurry of posts above).

They would, this is because Esso (ExxonMobil) have not manufactured 98RON fuel anywhere in the UK since Jan 1 2002!

This is correct, the underlying information afterwards though is completely wrong and misleading.

It took me only 5 minutes to gain the information you have presented above Paul, I spoke to the same person as you, (Peter Efford, ExxonMobil customer care, 01372 222000). Inexplicably your version of the information he gave differs from what he claims he said to you and from the information I will enclose within this post?

Peter Efford (@ ExxonMobil)
"By law, Esso have to manufacture to 'above' the published minimum of 97 RON, after speaking to the production quality manager responsible for the production run delivered on that particular delivery note, that batch was closer to 98RON than 97 and was stamped as such. This is a guideline for production quality and NOT an indication that 98RON is produced and is also NOT an accurate figure but a confirmation that it is above the minumum spec for production purposes, Esso DO NOT produce sell or manufacture 98RON fuel!" In fact NOBODY in the UK does either, 97RON is now THE accepted and Industry recognised standard for SUL Petrol in the UK regardless of manufacturer.
(Shell Optimax is not SUL it's one step above and is entirely different).
ExxonMobil disagree emphatically, perhaps you misunderstood his explanation?
You had not misread the retailer delivery note, you had simply read too much into it. (define Mad)?
No they do not. ExxonMobil (Esso) DO NOT manufacture 98RON fuel full stop. (Production tolerances dictate that it is sometimes close to it but NOT actually 98RON. It's apparently usually just a few points over 97RON, just enough for them not to get into trouble for being under.


I will not argue this one at all as it will look commercial, other than to say at we're nowback to the original point of this thread in that 2+2 does not =5?

OK then I'll grab this one how it deserves, by the scruff of the neck. I'm challenging Well Lane turbo or anyone they wish to send on here or through you to justify the figures on the 2 graphs borrowed, (I hope that's OK Paul/Graham) from your (TSL Motorspoerts) web site. If they feel they need a solicitor to justify these discrepancies, roll him in here as well?

BEFORE



AFTER (WITH SILKOLENE PROBOOST)


The points that don't hold water I've listed below to make replying/explainig easier:-

1) The comparison CLEARLY shows that by adding Silkolene Proboost, that you achived a gain of 80 lb/ft of torque at only 1,350 RPM. Do you agree that that is possible and actually happened?

2)Where most turbo's start to spin up (2600RPM) there is still an 80lb/ft torque increase over the non proboost run? How is that possible?

3)Why is the torque profile so monumentaly different up to 3500RPM between the 2 runs?

Wouldn't dream of doing that Paul.
I agree!

Mike.

Trouser @TSL

.. know what you're saying mate. All RR's should be taken with a pinch of salt.

But running a back to back run means that any innacuracy in run one is replicated in run two.

If you had 488 bhp on a run.. the figure means something if you had done a run immediately prior to that on the same rolling road without the mod you were trying to appraise. If that figure was say 440.. for the sake of argument.. both silly figures but at least it show a trend. and that what you have done is worth while.

If you carefully read the text of the web site. We draw attention to the gained 4BHP. I think that is pretty realistic for any reputable booster. I'm know you guys have seen more from NF. All i say about torque is that it flattens the curve.. I mention no figures. So that is a provable fact. Whether or not each graph is wholy accurate is a fair question but the trend of improvement in torque and BHP are fairly clear even for a techno retard like me.

I thought it was an interesting figure..but the "before" graph looks pretty damn sensible for a fully decatted Type UK with ITG, in terms of BHP and Torque curves. This would suggest a reasonably accurate RR. The only thing seperating graph 1 and 2 is a trip to the petrol station and half an hour. If they had changed resistance on the Rollers than how could the second "after" BHP trace be so similair the the first?

Best of all.... this was a customer doing this for us. Take a bow Mr Jason Hemsworth.(Blue on scoobynet) He went and did this himself and was kind enough to supply us with the graphs. Therefore no hidden agenda can be levelled. Real car, real run, real person, real graph.

Cheers

Paul

CraigH

Paul,

You're still missing the point I think.

I'm not looking at a comparison on the relative merits of different Octane Boosters.

What I'm making a point about is how, by adding Proboost, the torque characteristics have been changed so significantly - according to you and that graph.

The runs may have been done back to back, but that doesn't explain the IMPOSSIBLE torque gains that low down (impossible as in this context)

There can be only 2 explanations to the graph:

1 - it is a different car
2 - it is a false reading (false as in something has happened, wheelspin etc to give inaccurate results)

As it was Jasons car on a back to back run, the only explanation can be number 2.

As to comparing my RR result - that 488 figure was almost exactly 100hp up on actual - a run done a few mins later........