Geezer

In the news recently there have been some articles (notably this and this) about how Apple are getting very greedy and dictatorial in their dealings.

Now, Google have just announced this.

Can Apple keep this up? You can only push people so far.

Geezer

JackClark

I can't see a problem, if you were a shopkeeper would you work for nothing?

Geezer

Mmmm, that's not a good analogy. Shopkeepers don't charge the people who sell to them!

Apple's latest move is like my local newsagent telling The Sun that they have to pay for the privelege of having their papers sold and give up 30% of any subscriptions that readers take up because they bought it in that shop.

I can understand Apple taking a cut of iTunes Store sales, that is slightly different than you tried to portray, but this move is not good.

Geezer

GazTheHat

I'm guessing they're needing to claw back some revenue when other makers of phones and tablets are catching up and taking their sales.

JackClark

That just shows your lack of knowledge GazTheHat. The iPhone is still the best selling Smartphone four years after launch, and the iPad has no competitors. You may notice that the iPhone also won the most prestigious award this year as the number one mobile device, and it's a year old!! App sales are astronomical, easily surpassing Android even though Android is on twice as many devices.

Lets compare iOS revenue to Android, I'll simplify, iOS Ł1.00 compared to Android at Ł0.00 you can make the iOS number any you like, but Android will never make any direct cash.

Funkii Munkii

I swear you'll be buried in one of these Jack !

Markus

I'm glad someone mentioned this In Ap Purchase (IAP) situation.

How about a hypothetical little story?

Let us say you are a company that sells ebooks, this makes you a *vendor* as you sell books that you purchase from *publishers*, this is a VERY important distinction to make.

Let us also say that you use Agency Pricing (google it) which Apple had a part in. This basically means that from every sale of a book, from a publisher who is part of agency pricing, the publisher gets 70% of that sale, you get the remaining 30%

Let us say you have an iOS application in the app store, way ahead of iBooks appearing and Apple offering the iBookstore. Your app is free, hey, why charge users to access content they may have purchased elsewhere, perhaps via your website, perhaps via other devices (Blackberry, Android, A Desktop App, etc...) to access this content and thus read no matter what device they are on as long as they have your app, so they can access their content anywhere. Additionally they could have added content via iTunes / Dropbox, etc... as your app supports the import of epub and pdf via these methods.

Let us also say that your app does not use IAP, it has buy buttons, which kick you out to Safari to purchase content, as advised by Apple as being the only non-IAP way to handle purchases from iOS.

Let us then say that Apple puts these new rules into force, that you HAVE to use IAP, that no other method of purchase in app is allowed. This means that you have to give up 30% on every sale. Not so bad you say? Well, don't forget that the publisher (the seller is a vendor, not publisher) wants 70% of that sale, as per usual, then you have the 30% from Apple for the pleasure of using their system for purchases, this, unless I am mistaken comes to 100%.

So where do you make money on your purchases from iOS? The answer is you do not.

*This* is where the big stink is coming from. It causes a problem for any ebook vendor, and that includes Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, and others.

JackClark

"why charge users to access content they may have purchased elsewhere, perhaps via your website, perhaps via other devices (Blackberry, Android, A Desktop App, etc...)"

There's your answer Marcus. Your app enables your users to purchase books anywhere then read them on a free app - this costs Apple money - on any device. Also, 70% of the sale would I hope include the costs of selling via IAP, if not then that must sting, but as you mentioned IAP is only one route to market, the free ride on iOS is over.

Markus

70% of the sale does NOT include the cost of IAP. 70% is for the publisher, the hypothetical company is a vendor, NOT a publisher, it does not get 70%, it gets the remaining 30%. Apple is therefore asking for that 30%, taking it away from the hypothetical company, thus leaving zero for the company.

Apple *knows* what it is doing, which is trying to force people out of the market. They want everyone to use iBooks. When you launch the app store and you don't have iBooks you are asked if you want to download it, that's free advertising, they could add a "or see ebook apps from others" as well if they wanted to be nice. Additionally, they are now using a custom view on the iBooks popup dialog, it's brown color, all other iOS dialogs are the blue color, and from what I'm aware, no other app can display a custom color on those dialogs, it's another closed method Apple is using.
As said, Apple was pushing for agency pricing, in fact, if I'm correct, you have to subscribe to agency pricing if you want to have your books on the iBookstore.

If the hypothetical company could host it's app on its own server it probably would, but Apple does not allow for this, and I understand why the app store is closed. I fully understand Apple has costs involved in hosting apps, however, they would not be hosting any content provided via IAP, that would and is handled by the company.

So what is the 30% actually for? Simply acting as a credit card processor and providing a transaction receipt? Does it really need to be 30%, why not 10 or 15? Do you really need to cause the iOS app to end up making zero money form it's platform.

As said, I'm speaking about a hypothetical company and situation here, but the point would hold true for a real company in this situation.

I'm very interested to see what Amazon's response to this will be. They have the money to simply accept a loss of 100% from their Kindle app, but somehow I don't think they would. I could see them firing off a lawsuit for anti-competitive behaviour, or simply pulling iOS support, which would upset many users, as if they are iOS only, they cannot read their files in another app due to the amazon drm.

JackClark

Marcus, can you be clear on one point, you say this theoretical company has to pay 70% of the 'sale' cost, does that sale cost include the 30% Apple take? That would still leave 30% of a admittedly lower sale price, which is a lot better. I hope it does as that to me is your 'sale' price.

And being devils advocate would Amazon put a link on Amazon.com to iBooks? They sell Apple products.

Markus

The 70 does not include the 30 apple wants. The vendor sells the book, so that is 100, the publisher gets 70, that leaves 30. Now with IAP, the 30 that the vendor would have had, has to go to apple

The key thing to stress is that the seller; ie the vendor, is a middle man. They take content from the publisher, who owns it, and the vendor sells it. If the vendor was the publisher then they would get 100 and thus keep 70 and give apple 30, which is not a problem, but as said the vendor isn't the publisher and so it isn't a case of a greedy vendor, as they have to give 70 to the publisher.

Does that help explain things better?

As for the link, doubt they would do that. If they have to give 30 to apple they are not going to push people to apple.

Markus

If you want to let users access content on iOS the Iap is THE only route to market, you are not allowed any other method, it is all or nothing

He option used by some to open a purchase page in safari was suggested by apple themselves this is now prohibited.

You cannot have an app which is a 'read-only' app to access content purchase from another source, if you happen to own that source.

birchy2010

iTrader: (12)

Coming from the publishing industry (i'm an IT technition for a software developer who supports several newspapers and is currently finishing its online package to include sales on iphone and android markets) the cost is obviously a disapointment but the major problem is loss of user information for marketing reasons, most of our customer base in managed service are local newspapers who rely on user information for statregic marketing but also uses this information for selling teh advertisment especially when adverts are sold on area distribution and demographic in that area. If sales are forced through the stores then we lose that information. it sucks tbh!

hodgy0_2

This sort of confirms my admittedly personal prejudices over Apple products (great product, Jobs is a visionary etc etc)

It is the Apple way or the highway, you have to commit in both a financial sense (within 2 mins after buying the product you have to hand over your credit card details to a website just to use it ffs) and an emotional one.

The irony for me (and with the help of the very clever Apple marketing machine) is that they sell individuality and “quirkiness” but the reality is actually an homogenised blandness, with the “you just don’t get it” zeal of the true believers.

It all reminds me of the Life of Brian sketch – You are all individuals, with the synchronised reply from the crowd “WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS”

Great products in isolation though – it’s just the wrap (or what Apple would call “vertical integration”) that puts me off, I don’t want to be vertically integrated, and if that means I miss out on the joy that is Itunes - then so be it

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

Apple charge 30%, Google 10%

Apple ONLY available via App Store, Google available anywhere and you can't see a problem?

Jack I think your rose tinted glasses have gone opaque.

JackClark

Some interesting reading here http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=118623

This thread's on it's way to abusive and narrow-minded already.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Hmmm I may read that later

Apple take (note the take) more of a cut than any other phone manufacturer (this includes the ipad if its connected to any mobile network) as they get a cut of the profits! Yes, Apple get a good chunk of the contract money for their devices (no other company does this with their mobile sets btw )
So as apple have this exclusivity, you think they could afford to reduce their prices a little
And the app store, its a bit of a rip off really, your forced into what they want you to do, no real freedom otherwise, if they dont like x software then you dont get it on "their" store.
I like competiton as much as the next person, and the ipad is already facing harsh competition (the latest competitors are ahead, good job there is a new one coming out soon ) and the iphone is now no longer top of the pile, though its innovative its not the best.
Did I mention that IOS is really bad? tbh it is, even apple agreed they have made some "mistakes", especially releases like IOS 4.xx


Tony

JackClark

You should probably read it now, your current opinion is way off the mark. Pub banter at best.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Even over there there are some disgruntled apple fans. Apple have had iy easy over the past few years but android are snapping at their heels now, I can see some companies jumping to Android and ditching apple over this.

Markus

I presume that's not aimed at my comments?

Using IAP isn't the problem, I'm sure developers would like to use it, supporting Apple etc... The problem is purely the percentage, as previously said, it's not a coincidence that it's a 70 / 30 split.

That is a lengthy thread, has it yet made the distinction, if ebooks are mentioned, between vendor and publisher? I *know* I am banging on about that bit, but it's the part many don't "get" and it is very important to understand the difference.

Tidgy

apple will eventualy price themselves out of the widescale market if they continue.

someone mentioned about the ipad being the only thing for it market, well no it isn;t any more, also it invented a market. question is would people still buy it if it wasn't apple?

i wont buy apple products simply because there to expensive and to restrictive, long live android and pc's

GazTheHat

/corrected

JackClark

Not your comments Marcus.

Setting the percentage high should not affect the big players, products with a strategy that's purely App Store based will have to to think again, good in my opinion; I don't want to be dragged out of an app and I don't particularly want to share my personal information, I have no real need for another middle man to buy a newspaper or book.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Pub talk love it (some advantages working in the mobile telecoms industry )
Most of these are very recent (top to bottom) the last being back in nov last year.

Interesting reading

US: HP Unveils ‘TouchPad’
Hewlett-Packard unveiled its entrant in the tablet race yesterday, betting its ‘TouchPad’ summer release will keep it in the running in a booming market dominated by Apple’s iPad and devices running Google’s software.

The 9.7-inch tablet running off Palm's well-regarded webOS operating system is HP's gamble that there remains room for yet another mobile software platform. HP's tablet features a fast dual-core Qualcomm Inc chip, supports video calling, and Adobe Flash. HP said the TouchPad will be priced competitively against the iPad, which starts at $499. It will launch with a WiFi-only model, followed by a 3G-compatible version later in the year.

The world's largest technology company by revenue also announced new smartphones on Wednesday, the Veer and the Pre3, both also based on the webOS software that HP acquired last summer in its $1.2bn purchase of handheld device pioneer Palm.


US: Apple Developing Cheaper iPhone To Compete With Android Handsets
Apple is said to be working on a cheaper range of iPhones in a bid to compete with low-priced handsets using Google’s Android software. According to a report by according to Bloomberg, Apple is looking to sell new SIM-free models for around US$200 (Ł125) which will not require users to sign a contract on purchase.

The new models are expected to around one-third smaller than the most recent iPhone model and will use technology that makes it easier to use the phone on multiple wireless networks. The first handset, which is being dubbed the “iPhone Nano” by technology bloggers, should be unveiled in the summer, although its introduction could be delayed.


SPAIN: HTC Launch Flyer Tablet
HTC has revealed its long awaited first tablet, the HTC Flyer, which debuts HTC’s new connected video service, HTC Watch. The Flyer will start shipping in Q2 this year. Prices have yet to be revealed but HTC says it is a high-end device and prices will reflect this.

HTC is also targeting the gaming community, cutting a deal with OnLive to launch the first cloud-based mobile gaming service on the Flyer. The seven-inch tablet, which is powered by Google’s Gingerbread, comes with a stylus as well as finger touch operability.

Unveiling the tablet at the Mobile World Congress, Peter Chou, CEO of HTC Corporation said: “Clearly, smartphones have transformed our lives but as we observed how people use smartphones, computers and other technologies, we saw an opportunity to create a tablet experience that is different, more personal and productive. We are progressing down a path as an industry when people will no longer be in a single device paradigm, but have multiple wireless devices for different needs; this is the direction we are moving.”

Hardware features include a 1.5GHz processor, display with a 1,024x600 resolution and HSPA+ and Wi-Fi connectivity. A rear five-megapixel camera with auto-focus and front-facing 1.3-megapixel camera is included.


GLOBAL: App Sales Expected To Soar To $15bn This Year
Sales of mobile apps are expected to rise to $15bn in 2011, up from $5.2bn last year, helped by the success of tablet computers and smartphones. According to researchers at Gartner, users are expected to download 17.7 billion apps this year, more than double the estimated 8.2 billion last year. The revenue is expected to come from sales of the apps, as well as an increase of advertising revenues.

Gartner also estimates that by the end of 2014, mobile users will have downloaded 185 billion apps, with revenues totalling $58bn. It added, “We strongly believe there is a sizeable opportunity for application stores in the future. However, applications will have to grow up and deliver a superior experience to the one a web-based app will be able to deliver."

Free downloads are expected to make up 81% of total downloads in 2011, but that percentage has been decreasing over the past two years, and Gartner predicted that the decline will continue this year before increasing from 2012.


US: iPhone 5 Expected To Have NFC
The upcoming iPhone 5 is expected to offer Near-Field Communication, the so-called “wave and pay” technology, in a move that could provide a major boost to the nascent mobile commerce industry. The new phone version is due out this year.
According to various reports, Apple could use its considerable clout to leverage better terms from card issuers, who charge fees of around 2% to retailers who accept their systems. Some sources said Apple could also decide to go it alone and keep transactions in-house,


UK: Google’s Android Outsell iPhones At Carphone Warehouse
Sales of mobile phone handsets which operate on Google's Android platform overtook sales of the iPhone at Carphone Warehouse last year. The mobile phones retailer’s third quarter figures released yesterday also revealed a surge in demand for smart phones over the Christmas period.

Chief executive Roger Taylor said Carphone did not keep precise figures on how many phones were selling on either the Android or Apple platform, but added: "At some point in 2010 the Android overtook every other operating platform." Some 75% of the phones Carphone sold over the three month period to 1 January 2011 were smartphones – a huge jump on the usual figure of about 50-60%, said Taylor, as people made moves to get their hands on the latest phone technology.

Analytics firm Nielsen estimates Android accounts for 40.8% of US Smartphone sales – against 26.9% for iPhone. Taylor added that he expects smartphones to move into the pre-pay, or pay-as-you-go, sector this year. At present such phones are usually only sold through post-pay, or contract means.

Keith Bowman of Hargreaves Lansdown said: "Carphone will be pleased at the competition between the likes of Google and Apple. It only adds to interest from consumers in smartphones. Consumer demand for smartphones provided the core driver [for Carphone's results], with US sales derived via the group's newly formed venture with electrical retailer Best Buy being the main thrust. The UK business also played its part, to offset difficult conditions across Europe, while the launch of a UK online Best Buy presence provides hope for future prospects."


US: Android Growth Rate To Be Twice Than Competitors In 2011
Android will continue to grow at more than twice the rate of its major smartphone competitors this year, despite market concerns over platform fragmentation and the arrival of the iPhone 4 on Verizon in the US, according to a study by Canalys.

According to Canalys Q3 2010 estimates, Android already claims a 25% share of the worldwide smartphone market, with over 20 million shipments of Android-based worldwide. Fragmentation is particularly visible with Android due to the fast pace of upgrades that has characterised its growth, said the researcher. The problem has been less pronounced on competitive platforms such as Apple's iOS, as devices have been able to support the iOS 4 upgrades since the iPhone 3G.


TAIWAN: Acer Unveils New Tablets And Smartphone
Acer yesterday announced two new Android tablets and one new Windows tablet, as well as an Android smartphone, to start shipping in Q1 next year. The Taiwanese firm's forthcoming Android tablets have 10.1-inch and seven-inch screens, respectively. The Windows tablet also has a 10.1 inch screen. All devices will be 3G and Wi-Fi enabled. The seven inch tablet will feature a dual core processor with Adobe Flash Player 10.1, while the HD 10.1 Android tablet has a built-in HDMI port and 1080p capability.

The Windows gadget comes with a docking device that includes a full-size keyboard to combine touchscreen and traditional keyboards. The Windows tablet will be available in February 2011, while the Anroid devices will hit the market two months later in April.

The smartphone has, according to Acer chief executive Gianfranco Lanci, "the soul of a tablet. It sports a 4.8 inch widescreen as well as 21:9 aspect ratio allowing for detailed entertainment viewing. It will also run on Android operating system. It has multi-touch, Java script optimisation, adobe Flash Player 10.1 support, multiple page opening , HSPDA connectivity at 14.4, wi-fi connectivity and Bluetooth 3.0.

Acer UK have yet to comment on UK availability or pricing



Tony

JackClark

Cut and Paste Pub Banter, even worse. I should copy your efforts to my 'Like Apple' thread.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Oh come off it, its from a totally legit (and 99.9% confirmed) source, if you have any idea of the telecoms industry then you will know the source.
Apple are not the "be all and end all", sorry to say that the competition has the upper hand in most cases (and yes I have 2 iphones )
Some of it is also news from the mobile industries conference in Madrid this last week

Tony

JackClark

And it has what exactly to do with this thread? How about you tell us your views as an 'insider' on the thread topic.

Geezer

Those are interesting figures. Now I know Jack is in denial about Android, but it it continues in this way and Apple p1ss enough people off with their dodgy business model, it could mean big trouble for them.

Added to that the raft of Android tablets coming out that are better featured than iPad (admittedly we don't know what iPad 2 has to offer), and this does seem an unwise move.

Interesting times.

Geezer

Markus

I think even Amazon would be narked off at losing 100% of a sale on iOS, and that is what will happen. Again, they are vendors, not publishers, and so need to send 70% to Publisher and 30% to Apple for IAP.

Obviously if you were iOS only then it'd be a bigger problem, but ebook vendors probably aren't iOS only. The thing is, if you have an iOS team, and you make zero money when content is purchased through iOS, how do you present that with a positive spin to the finance / business side of a company? Why should they keep an iOS team around if it is costing them money to run and they get zero return from that platform?

You may have no need for a middleman, but how many publishers have their full catalog available as an iOS application? You would have 100's of apps, from each publisher, with just their content. I doubt they'd interact with each other and so you'd need to switch to a different app to read a specific book. That's not pleasant. What the ebook vendors provide is a single app to manage many publishers. The downside, as evidenced, is that the vendor gets nothing.

JackClark

The consequences of not having an iOS app are too great.