Gordo

as per title - a friend has 4,000 CDs and has been looking at Linn as a way of getting many of them in uncompressed format and being able to play them on demand.

I suspect this could be achieved by using a server (?) much cheaper, and the largest Linn product can only take ~2,500 CDs.

so,

a) am I barking? is it possible to either set up a server linked to a PC/Apple or fill a PC with enough hard drives to make it workable?

b) would it sound as good? i.e. does it matter what you use to rip the CDs uncompressed (it's just data, right?) and the playback quality just depends on the software and the quality of the links to the amp?

any thoughts welcomed!

Gordo

ru'

4,000 CDs is about 2,600 GB (2.6TB?) which is a hell of a lot of data. Having said that, no doubt there are devices such as network attached storage things which could be used.


The quality will depend mainly on the soundcard inside the connected PC; getting the data from the storage to the PC via a network should be no worries - it is just data, and the data rate for stereo audio is nothing on a network.

Havind said that, if you're storing the CDs uncompressed and thinking spending this sort of dosh is a good thing then maybe your friend is unlucky enough to have golden ears, a mega dosh hi-fi and a treated listening room and will claim to hear the difference when oxygen-free CAT-5 and gold-plated RJ45 connectors are used...

lightning101

The computer and the sum of its components will provide far too much interference for hifi purists, full stop.

If not try compressing them all to 320kbs as happy medium, uncompressed is 1440kbs as a guide.

Iain Young

It will never sound as good as the original cd. As lightning said, the extra electronics in the system will likely degrade the sound quality by a large amount.

Compressing is an option if storage is limited, but you'll notice a large quality drop. Depends greatly on the music being stored, (stuff with a large dynamic range is worst affected), but even at 320kbs I can easily hear the difference between that and the original cd. It's good enough for my ipod at work or in the car, but I wouldn't want to listen to them over the hifi at home....

Gordo

The Linn system is a massive hard drive which then plays the digital information to analogue through some kind of convertor (?)

I'm not thinking about using a PC soundcard - but I do like the idea of a PC managing the content on a super storage unit and then routing the (uncompressed) digital info to a convertor unit similar to how the Linn one works. Are you saying that there'll be lost data or interference introduced somehow?

I'm confused (easily done!) - in my head a CD player reads the data off a CD and then does some whizzy bangy stuff to get it to the amp (and analogue signal). If the digital data is captured and stored, there shouldn't be any impact on the final quality of output, as long as the same whizzy bang conversion is eventually done?



Gordo

stevencotton

You could store them in lossless FLAC format if 320VBR isn't good enough. Nothing wrong with storing the data on a central server and either streaming them out to other devices, or mounting that storage over the network.

Iain Young

It all depends on the quality of the electronics you are putting it through. It's not the conversion algorithm from lossless digital to analog that loses the quality as such, (although that does play a part), it's the quality of the equipment outputting that analog signal. In most computer systems, this analog output is not anywhere near the same level of quality as a good cd player, and so is subject to all sorts of problems, not least being intereferance from the computer itself.

That's one of the reasons why these dedicated digital music server things (like the Linn) cost so much. They use much higher quality components.

Gordo

Iain, I think we're talking about the same thing.

I'm not talking about the PC outputting the analogue signal, merely the digital signal - which a CD-player type unit will then convert to analog (I think these are available as stand alone-units?).

Just feels like there has to be a cheaper solution to Linn (which, ultimately, is a load of PC hard drives in a storage case, linked to quality hifi components).

So, what's the cheapest way to store 2600Gb (or a bit less if using the lossless format?)

G

lightning101

What about a stack of NAS boxes connected to a multimedia amp with an RJ45 connector, no computer involved in the digital to analogue processing.


Only the quality of the amp and cable would be an issue then

ru'

I'd recommend NAS boxes feeding a PC with a decent soundcard, S/PDIF out of that into a decent DAC and into the existing hi-fi.


PC noise then isn't an issue, only possibly clock jitter on the S/PDIF (hence decent soundcard required).

Oh, and make sure you get the acoustic clips for your curtains, and ensure all capacitors in the signal path have bamboo dialetric...

IWatkins

Me ? I just put a CD into the tray of my CD player. My shelf on the wall stores all my CDs, is made of wood and cost me about £20 to make.

Or you could buy one of these Lacie units.

Cheers

Ian

speednut

I've got smething like 900 cd's on my system at the mo', all at 100% vbr mp3. There is no noticeable loss of quality at all. They are streamed over the netwaork using slimp3's nd squeezebox's (slimp3.com). So much cheaper than Linn and no loss of quality and I'd rate myself as an audiophile. If you're looking for the uk importer try multitaskcomputing.co.uk. You're friend won't be dissapointed.

Gordo

900 CDs is impressive - how much memory do they take up using vbr? I've got about 7500 tracks on ours at the moment - but only currently play them either via an Ipod to the stereos or using the PC audiolab soundcards (two machines networked).

How good is the squeezebox - impressive at the price - however decent DACs are expensive, this is $200 for the wireless gateway, DAC and output hardware.

The issue is still the 4,0000 CDs at my friends - he has neither the inclination (nor support of his wife) to put them on display and is seeking a more usable alternative. Squeezebox or similar is good for distributing the data - storing it at a sensible price is the starting point.....

rich101

Looking for a propriety system will always result in higher costs and potentially defunct within a relatively while.

This is the system I chose -

http://slimdevices.com/pi_specs.html


As you can see it does have an optical out which would allow direct connection to a high end DAC, I would think the hardware player would have minimal noise due to the simplicity of the unit.

This solution would allow you to use FLAC or AAC but before committing LARGE amounts of money to a final system, it might be worth a quick play.

That is the solution I came to in the end, running a few LARGE disks hanging from an iMac using Firewire enclosures ( heat and ease of ) but whatever OS you feel comfortable with. As for hardware there are several possible avenues - NAS would possibly serve the purpose but it would have to offer scalability for the future, 2.6Tb is a fair number of disks and I would really concentrate on the RAID aspect to a great degree, the pain of re-ripping 4000+ CD's due to a failed RAID5 set would be immense.

That said my system comprise of an SlimPlayer v1.0 (via WiFi bridge) Arcam 8 amp feed with a RCA interconnects and a fairly expensive THX Denon AV feed with the optical connect from the current SlimPlayer (Ethernet) and I am quite happy with 192~320VBR for most things.

The other nice thing about the SlimServer set up is that you can stream over the network to soft clients simply connect to the stream using iTunes or WinAmp etc it even works over the internet. Large userbase with lots of customisation too.

Do let us know what you go for, as I am always interested in home AV !

rich

edited - reread the original post ! 4000 CD's, wow. I have something like 700 and it really is a pain to find anything . . . perhaps I would have stored them in some sort of order if iTunes had not come alone

MrDeference

Budget on 350Mb per CD with WMA lossless. Thats about 1.8Tb.
You could sit at a PC for 2 solid weeks 24 hours a day ripping a disk every 5 minutes and just about finish 4000 disks (hope all the media info is correct!) so I reckon keeping hold of the files is the first priority.
I would buy a big NAS box: proper RAID SATA device with headroom for growth and robustness. Connect this heavy iron to a wireless 802.11g router and buy something like a (one or more) D-Link DSM-320RD. http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=118588

You can then have your storage geographically seperate from your viewing / listening area.

Have a look at the actual UI of the player device. How many people actually use the boxes mentioned with archives anywhere near as big as the one you discuss? How easy is it to get the tunes you want from a tiny matrix screen? Wouldnt it be more helpful to use your TV as the view port onto the system? Then you can rip your DVDs and watch them elsewhere too. Audio is preserved as mentioned cos you are offloading the DAC work by connecting to the audio stage with the units digital out.
Thats what I would do, were I to think about such things...

alistair

I agree with MrDeference about the UI - I have the older DLink adapter which is easy to use but doesn't have the optical output. It uses a TV to display the menus on and so is much quicker to navigate than the Squeezebox. There is the down side that you need to locate it near a TV and have to switch the TV on, but it works for me

I don't have quite the same volume of music to worry about, but personally I wouldn't spend too much time & effort on fancy RAID systems - sounds like overkill unless you really need that level of fault tolerance. What I did was used an old PC, put it on the network and loaded it up with discs then just used that as a backup device for both photos & music.

Gordo

Right, have thought about this some more and I think we're heading towards a potentially feasible solution.

NAS linked via PC to something like the squeeze (I was wrong about it - it's sounds pretty good - review here http://playlistmag.com/reviews/2005/...box2/index.php). Squeeze(s) linked to amp/speakers etc.

UI is a good point - I'm thinking a laptop which you use remotely (whereever you are) to access the tracks/ line up play-lists etc.

Still a bit clumsy (and not cheap - seems to be about £5k for a large enough NAS?) - another flaw in my thinking could be iTunes. Can it handle WMA lossless?

Gordo

(oh, and I'm thinking of selflessly replicating the system with his archive at our house to give him back-up should either system ever fail).

Grayduncs

I can heartily recommend my solution – I employ a musician. Now I know that this sounds a luxury but you can do it really quite reasonably. When I come across a busker whose sound I like, I invite them to take up temporary residence at my home. Given their usual takings on the street the idea of regular food and warm lodgings is very appealing. They play requests for me and when I get bored of their sound I kick them out and find another.

4,000 cds at c£10 each is £40k spent, you can get a whole load of busking for that money and you have the warm satisfaction of being a patron of the arts. For the times when I am in-between in-house musicians there is always the radio.

Iain Young

Not as such. If you try and import a wma, itunes will convert it to aac before including it in the library. I don't think it works with wma drm either, (although I might be mistaken on that).

iTunes can handle AAC lossless, but to keep stuff in wma format you'd need to use microsofts media player afaik.