GaryK

Rev,

its probably more to do with the integrated development environment (IDE) than the language itself, i.e. which you find more productive. as MarkO says Java is probably the best from a commercial point of view and learning an object oriented language is probably better than learning a procedural language like Basic and moving to Java later.

That said most of the Java IDEs I have used are pants in terms of efficiency. Visual Basic is favoured by most beginners because most people have some Basic knowledge from their sinclair spectrum or whatever!, that said alot of people who use industrial strength dev. tools consider it a joke.

You will also find if you are doing commercial development you are gonna need some database experience with Oracle, SQL Server, DB2 etc. so a good knowlegde of SQL will help.

Good Luck

Gary




[Edited by GaryK - 10/7/2002 4:02:19 PM]

MrDeference

Nah. You want to do it in assembly language. All the other stuff has no comercial value, and people won't respect your skills.

Pick up a copy of VB.NET. Have a play. Use the microsoft .NET types to do the work. Revel in the fact it took you 1/10 the time it would otherwise have, and go down the pub.
VB.NET is an OO language. It has strong commercial appeal. Don't believe any supercilious claptrap...

EDIT: tag problems

[Edited by MrDeference - 10/7/2002 9:58:33 PM]

orbv

Every school boy programs in vb.net and a lot of people believe 'its the only language' as M$ push it pretty hard. How may people say its so quick and easy and have never tried another language or even written any code themself, its all based on a TV adverts . The same people are convinced that NT/XP is a reliable/scaleable OS .

IMHO when you have learned one language its pretty easy to move to another so pick one and go for it.

[Edited by orbv - 10/8/2002 9:02:43 AM]

DavidRB

http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2002/0625javaweb.html

Or to quote:

In a recent survey Borland conducted of "C-level executives," i.e., top corporate officers, the predominant response from those surveyed was "Java is over."

[Edited by DavidRB - 10/8/2002 11:18:44 AM]

NotoriousREV

I've worked in IT for years, but never really done much in the way of programming.

I've got a little project I want to do, basically a sound generator and I'm not really sure which would be a good language to do it in.

I suppose the question is: which is a good beginners language?

MarkO

Basic is good. Java's probably better, 'cos you can start simply with it and write basic-style programs, but it's actually commercially useful in the long run.

IWatkins

Delphi is the obvious choice to me.

OO if you want it, great IDE and fast development.

If you need a simple sound generator, there are already freebie components to do this.

VB = Devil's work and no serious programmer should use it

Eagle7

VB rocks for learning and for quick development. So long as you dont mind paying for the tools.

MarkO

Can't agree. Given the fact that Java and VB are so ubiquitous, learning Delphi might well be coding yourself into a corner, so-to-speak. The number of places using Delphi commercially is insignifant compared to those using C++, Java or VB.

MarkO

Oooooh. Tenuous claim. VB's object orientation is spurious, incomplete and a bit of a hack - even in the latest version.

Want to get into a philosophical debate about that one?

GaryK

But the number of people chasing those those places is much smaller as well. But yep it all depends if you need to have the specific language skill or just need to get the job done.

Gary

chiark

I'd go for Java, as learning VB will get you into bad, bad habits before you start. Java is a pure object-oriented language and, as such, is extremely applicable to most other languages.

VB, even VB.net, is a compromise.

Java.

Learn Java.

Rob Walker

Personally I'd do it in C.. not a fan of C++ at all.

MarkO

C is a bad language to start with. There's loads of stuff which a beginner doesn't want to have to worry about (memory allocation/freeing, pointers, etc). It'll just confuse a newbie.

C++ is easy. It's just an extension of C, really, with a funny syntax.

MrDeference

Java and Delphi have a large encumbent developer base going after a dwindling number of jobs. You can't seriously advise a new programmer to learn a language that comprimises his marketability?

Even if I conceede that VB.NET isn't a fully OO language (and I don't) it is still OO enough to enable learning of the paradigm.

There is a reason why, as orbv states, it is used as a learning language. It's syntax is easy, and there is lots of help out there. Now it is a first class citizen (tm) too - don't forget, MS compiles all languages into intermediate code (and has done for a long time). So other than the superficial elements of the syntax of the language (no jagged arrays - shock horror) it is all the same under the skin.

My personal recommendation. Learn C#. Then work backwards through C++ and Assembly as you need to understand what is going on under the skin. I guess you will get bored long before that, and decide that Dev is too dull, as indicated by countless pedantic religious discussions about languages.

DavidRB

You haven't specified the problem in sufficient detail to make a sensible language choice. For example, here is one line of questioning:

Does it have to run really quickly? C++

Does it have to run really, really quickly? Assembler

Is it your first attempt at programming and you're short of time? Visual Basic 6

Is it your first attempt at programming, but you have a lot of time? Java

Do you fancy playing with the latest technology? VB.NET or better still C#.

Is "object orientated programming" something that you want to learn? Java, C# or Delphi.


Most people choose languages for religious reasons. VB/Java/Delphi is like Impreza/Evo/Skyline, but not necessarily in that order.

What exactly is a "sound generator"? What is it supposed to do? What will it need to connect with? Most software projects (~90%) fail because people don't allocate enough time & effort to thinking about the problem and designing the solution before jumping into product selection.

MrDeference

MarkO

ROFLMAO. You're joking, right? C# is dead in the water (cue Barrymore joke) before it even started. It's just Java with pointers, so why not learn Java?

Oh, and BTW - you managed to get 'paradigm' into your post, but I didn't spot 'leverage' anywhere in there. You'll never make it into management with sloppiness like that.

netclectic2

Delphi has by far the best IDE and with Delphi 7 Borland are effictivly the main independant (i.e. not M$) company providing .Net develpoment tools.

NotoriousREV

OK, here's some more info about what I want to do (don't laugh, it's just something I want to create for my personal anorak-ey reasons )

I want to create a sound generator that can mimic engine sounds. I want to be able to enter all parameters that matter: number of cylinders, firing sequence, valve timing, rpm range etc. etc.

At first it will be a simple interface, but later on I'd like to add a visual aspect to it.

From the responses given so far (thanks to everyone for that) it seems that Java is most people's favourite. I'm not doing it for commmercial reasons, I just want to do it for something to do over winter Does Java still seem a reasonble choice?

MarkO

LOL. The operative word being Borland. Show me a similar survey from somebody independent, and I might be interested.

Oh, and anyway, WTF do C-level executives know about techie stuff like that? Don't you read Dilbert?

NotoriousREV

I'd jut like to add: I'm actually a manager, so I'm hoping to learn some really bad habits and force this knowledge on my staff against their will

"See, under weaknesses you've put eczema"

stevencotton

Rather than trying to find out what language most people like, one should use the right tool for the right job.

Quite how you're going to mimic the sound an engine makes I don't know. I'd think you'd be looking at some kind of modelling environment to do that properly, with the physical properties of the materials in use playing a large part in how something sounds. If you're just playing and want to mimic rather than model then rather than choose a language which other people think looks nice, choose one that already has a DSP (or similar) library available for you that allows you to create and manipulate sounds. Don't reinvent the wheel when the hard work has already been done far better than you could, by someone that really knows the subject well.

Steve.

chiark

Right, if you're wanting to learn about programming, I'd still say Java as, out of the usual suspects, that is a pure OO language that will enforce you to think in the right way, even for quick and dirty hacks

If you just want to get it done, VB is great but on the other hand teaches you little about good structure IMHO. OK, that's doing VB down, as it isn't all that bad and does "enforce" a sort of structure, but if you want to learn programming, go Java. If you want to get the job done, go VB

Nick.

GaryK

Delphi!

ah Rev see you've discovered as someone pointed out, its religion not whats best! Anyway if you use Delphi do a search for DirectX and Delphi, someone has ported all the API headers for you (DirectDraw, DirectSound, DirectPlay etc.) and you would be upto speed *much* quicker than starting from scratch.

Use VB if you want to play WAVz and do a few beeps!!!

stevencotton

Using OO for OO's sake is also wrong. If your problem doesn't require objects then don't use them. If the language you're using is forcing you to use OO methodology then all you're doing is introducing unnecessary overhead. OO is not always right, just as procedural coding isn't always right.

Steve.

DavidRB

Of course I do. When has The Pointy-Haired Boss ever paid any attention to what Dilbert thinks?

MrDeference

MarkO,

Just interested in why you think C# is dead in the water? What have you been reading with your ample spare time?

You are a good recommendation for Java though. If you can land a job at a Japanese bank and sit on your **** all day reading scoobynet whilst making more money than God you must have done something right at some point.

dsmith

Hmmm no-one gone for Perl, PHP, Cobol ......

This thread still has 4 or 5 pages to run ;-)

MarkO

Nothing in particular. I'm subscribed to a few development discussion lists, and also browse places like the CodeProject Lounge fairly regularly. I just get the overall impression that there's a lot of people out there who really don't GAS about C#, and a lot more who reckon that Java's where it's at. In particular, when C# was released about 12-15 months ago I signed up for 2 or 3 lists about it, to find out more. Both lists have now closed due to lack of interest! Actually, God's rate is slightly higher, but only 'cos he's exempt from paying NI.