winston69

iTrader: (30)

Lo folks

Been using my porter cable for the first time and the experience has been horrible

Started tonight around 5 and just finished

All i've achieved is going over the car once using 2 orange pads with Blackfire SRC Compound.

Problem is the car now looks terrible and the compound is horrible to remove even after leaving it to dry for a long time

Every defect now looks much worse and i've got to start all again using green pads and Blackfire SRC Finishing Polish but i can't face it

Any questions please question me and i'll respond because i need a lot of pointers i think

How many pads do you use applying one product to the car?

RapidSeven

Can I just say, ive been reading through various threads on the porter cable machines, and yes they do a good job, the valeters had one at the branch of Dixons I used to work at.

But you cannot go wrong with a varible speed buffer, and get exactly the same results as the porter cable. Infact the valeters hardly ever used the porter cable, they prefered the normal run of the mill body shop buffer.

I have machine buffed and polished maybe 60 cars, and IMHO buffing and polishing with comound and a decent polish then finish with handglaze to remove the swirls does exactly the same job.

For example, if you had a knackered bonnet ( say a bloomed red vauxhall one or a scratched black one ) did one side with the porter cable, and one side with a buffer, using the same chemicals, there will be no difference.

Its not the machine, its the chemicals you use, its the age old theory, you get what you pay for. ( BTW, im not a valeter, nor profess to be one )

Just my view

R7

winston69

iTrader: (30)

Great but your speech on different buffers doesn't exactly restore any faith to myself as you haven't supplied any information apart from a Porter cable is on par with a variable speed buffer

RapidSeven

I don't know about the chemicals your using ( blackfire SRC Compound ) but obviously its a cutting compound. What I would do is remove the pads on your machine, and give them a rinse out with warm water, and whilst wet, run over the car again, this will get rid of the " horrible compound " deposits left on the paint work.

From reading what you've said, I think that you've probably been applying too much compound, too dry. Whats happening is the compound is being moved around an area and not doing its job, getting warm and sticking. You can combat this by having a spray bottle with water in to give each panel a light dusting of mist before you start.

Its important that you don't use too much water as this will dillute the compound down into a watery slop, and its sort of defeating the object tbh. When you get it just right, you'll feel the machine and compound doing the work for you.

Good luck mate !

R7

winston69

iTrader: (30)

Cheers fella that does sound like what was happening. I find the polisher vibrates more than it spins? It hardly spins at all - don't know if that's right?

Would a detailing spray have the same effect as water in this case?

RapidSeven

Im not sure about the machine you've got mate, as ive never used one. Don't they operate when you move sort of thing, im not sure.

The detailing spray, this im not sure of, it'll probably be water based with some sort of chemical in, all the water does is aleiviate the buffer pad & compound with the paint work. Personally id use just water if your unsure.

Dont be worried about burning the paint either, ive done this on an old scrapper before to see how far you can go before you burn the paint, you have to get it more than red-hot to burn it. My rule of thumb is if you need to give a certain area more attention, and your worried that its too hot, put the back of your hand on the paint, and if it makes you jump very quickly your not far off. Next year when we get some red hot weather, and your cars been out in the sun all day, put the back of your hand on the paint and it'll be not far off the same as the buffed one etc. If the sun don't burn the paint, the buffer wont.

Just remember, use plenty of water and you'll not end up in that position ! Also try and keep an eye out for area's on your car that might have been painted in the past, its possible to go to far with the compound if the painting wasn't done up to standard. Also be careful on the corners or any area on the body work that won't have as much paint on as other area's. Just a bit of common sense really.

If your struggling with it and local to me, i'll happily pop over and help you out matey. Im in the Doncaster area ?

R7

carlpcross

hi winston, it does sound like you have been usung too much product.
when i use my pc, i give the pad 3 sprays of quick detailer and a small cross of compound in the middle of the pad. only do 1 panel at a time, 2 slow passes on speed 2 to apply the product over the whole panel to 2 passes on speed 5/6 to warm the compound up and start the paint correction.
dont let the compound dry, it should just haze slightly, and then buff off with a micro-fibre towel.
if it does dry to quickly, give the panel a couple of srays of the quick detailer before buffing off with the micro-fibre towel.

hope this helps

carl..

RapidSeven

I just hate these American idea's, 3 sprays of the quick detailer ( water ) 2 slow passes on speed 2, 2 passes on speed 5/6, dear me im suprised thats come from America, there usually to fat to bother expending all that pointless energy, when one pass with a normal buffer does exactly the same thing.

I can just imagine the yanks, " wow randy, look at the finish, 2 hours and the door is finished, pass me another beer good buddy will ya "

Good these things maybe, but they all sound too much messing about for my liking.

How long does it take to do a 5 door family sized car, with knackered paint work ?

R7

StickyMicky

i did a faded red/pink corsa last week with a machine rotary buffer at around 1200 rpm

very quickly masked up the plastics, and dived in with watered down g3 paste, buffed it back, blasted the excess off with a pressure washer, then shock horror i put the car through my conveyor carwash, this removes all the product instead of wiping it off (saves a lot of time tbh)

car came out dry, i gave the bodywork a final polish by hand with some solvent cut hand polish and the paint was sorted in 2 hours. porter cable will take longer as they do less work, less work is easier to make things wrong, but it can make slow progress

we do not go for intensive defect removal here, but the customer did want the car red again, and all the customers i have asked have never been bothered about swirls or holograms, as long as its shiny so they have no problems with me putting the car through the carwash to remove the product, not recomended for somebody trying to go for full on 100% defect removals.......

there have been many times i have waxed my own car in the rain and then used my carwash to remove and buff up the paintwork

winston69

iTrader: (30)

Well had another crack at it this morning

Started at 9 and just finished

Started off using a 4" pad on the bad spots using compound. All was going well until i burnt my door removing a deep scratch - So it is very possible to burn your paint!!!!

Then moved on to polish the whole car and then proceded to seal it all using wet diamond

I'm not very impressed with my finish on the whole as i can still make out hazing here and there

Tried my best but to no avail

Is it recommended to apply more wet diamond after my next wash etc to get a real wet look?

Had to wash the car also after i had finished polishing.sealing and i had product nearly everywhere inbetween the trim etc

StickyMicky

you burnt your car with a porter cable ?

carlpcross

Started off using a 4" pad on the bad spots using compound. All was going well until i burnt my door removing a deep scratch - So it is very possible to burn your paint!!!!


i would contact the company you got the pc from and ask nicely for a refund as its obvious what the problem is.

carl.

winston69

iTrader: (30)

Nah was my doing as i attacked it 4 times removing the scratch - went at it to keen

Live n learn

Rich @ PB

iTrader: (3)

I've been away all weekend at Edition38 and TRAX, so have only just seen this thread. Got a lot to say...

To Winston69

Unusual set of problems you've experienced. Blackfire SRC Compound has a high lubricant content compared to many compounds, and is designed to be worked using the slow cut method. This involves spreading the product at a low speed (one pass at speed 1), then working the product at speed 4-5 using light to moderate pressure until the residue begins to turn clear and dry out. Then you buff the residue off using a short nap microfibre, and inspect (reading your comments you've defintely been using way too much product). What you normally see on hard paints (like Impreza paint) is a high degree of defect removal and a small degree of micromarring which looks like hazing.

When you are happy with the degree of defect removal, you then proceed to the SRC Finishing Polish, again using a slow cut method, in order to remove the micromarring and leave a perfect, wet, glossy finish. If you use too much speed and pressure, and don't clean out your pads after every otyher panel, the SRC's do become difficult to use. I'm frankly shocked that you managed to go through the paint with the PC - on all the Impreza's I've done with this pair I've only seen 3-4 microns of paint removal, out of a total thickness of around 100-120, depending on the car. You must have really been giving it a lot of welly to burn through, either that or your car has been seriously compounded in the past, leaving you with little to work on - but, only a paint gauge can tell you this, and granted, they ain't cheap. That said, if you are seeing the PC oscillate more than rotate (and even stop rotating altogether) you are definitely using too much pressure.

Best bet it to give me a call about the products and I'll happily talk it all through with you, as you are clearly having difficulties that I can help you to avoid. Remember, part of our service is not just to supply products, but also to offer the advice that goes with them, based on our own professional detailing experience.

To Rapid Seven

Thanks for your input, a lot of what you said I agree with, but a few things I need to offer my opinion on.

There is a world of difference between dual action units and rotary machine polishers used in bodyshops. It is very, very difficult to cause any damage to paint using a dual action machine polisher like a PC, whereas 20 seconds of incorrect use can cause a rotary to burn right through, on both panels and even more so on edges.

Your put down of 'american techniques' is incorrect. High end polishes like those made by Menzerna of Germany for Blackfire are not one hit wonders you use at a single speed and pressure. The products are flexible enough to allow the use of different methods depending on the type of defect removal required, but to learn these methods takes time. A good, safe, effective method for novices therefore is the slow cut method, and this involves making passes at different speeds. You need to understand products and their make up before being able to use them - just because one compound can be used to good effect at a single speed by rotary doesn't mean other compounds can, especially when used with a dual action unit.

Andy-C

Good Thread, I'm learning a lot without having the trolls attack.

Thanks guys

RapidSeven

As far as burning the paint goes, your synopsis about 20 seconds using the machine wrong would burn right through, you'd have to give the paint some right hammer to do that, I know this as ive burnt the paint on purpose ( as I said in a previous post ), I think in 9 out of 10 cases that only a novice would burn the paint, and more often than not it would be on raised area's of the bodywork or on bodge-job paint up's done in the past.

Now in comparison with this all singing and dancing PC that people are going on about, I cannot comment as ive never used one, from reading on another website about how its designed to operate, it does no better or no worse job than any other machine buffer. Its the chemicals used that does the job. If you put a PC and a regular buffer in trained hands, using the same chemicals, the finished result would be exactly the same.

With my normal £70 variable speed, 240v, single pad buffer, I could buff a " car-washed " black car until the paint is like glass, and remove ALL the swirl marks by hand with 3M Handglaze. I could do all this, washing, buffing, washing again, handglazed and finishing polish on a 5 door black ford focus in 2 to 3 hours, and thats steady away.

You try using your PC on a knackered old pink Vauxhall, and tell me how long it takes you

At the end of the day all its about is as long as they do the job mate, I just said it seems in my opinion on reading what others say about there experience with the PC, its far too much effort and it take's too long, plus its a very expensive piece of kit. I mean 2 to 3 passes at a certain speed with compound, then 5 passes at this speed with another, rub off with this cloth, rub with that cloth etc etc. You shouldn't have to be doing that.

As good it may be, and the results it gives when finished is very good granted, ( ive looked on your web-site, very very nice quality finishes, you know what your doing for sure ) but for me its just seems all bit pointless, expensive and labourous.

Its just no suprise that it comes from the USA.

Exactly the same job with a normal buffer, in a quarter of the time, and half the effort and cheaper chemicals.

R7

winston69

iTrader: (30)

How do you go about cleaning your pads off whilst on the job? And also how many pads would you say you need per car per product?

I think i managed to get the paint to hot so it burnt from the under side? That how it'd work? If not god knows

I was going at it quite hard so it's understandable why it did burn. Doesn't look to bad now it's all been polished over

Would you recommend multiple coats of wet diamond to increase the wetness or will this not acheive that look and i'll have to resort back to square 1?

My car still has light scratches here and there so guess it needs doing again as i own the products now

So maybe more pads and a little experience will help

Rich @ PB

iTrader: (3)

Finishing by rotary without leaving holograms and buffer trails when the sun hits the car is a skill that takes a long time to learn, and one which very, very few people have in my opinion. At a recent car show with 150 top show cars on display (many of which were wearing brand new paint jobs), over 90% had obvious defects caused by the use of rotary polishers in unskilled hands. Half the work we do is correcting defects caused by poor wash techniques, the other half is correcting defects put in by bodyshops and other people using rotaries incorrectly. The idea of getting novices to start by rotary is frankly beyond me...

The choice of product does indeed have a massive impact on the degree of paint correction achieved, as does the choice of pad for the machine. That said, I'm interested by your example. We aren't talking about quick fix fill jobs to hide all of the defects. If you are using a glaze you are simply hiding defects rather than removing them - ie valeting. We detail - we remove a carefully measured amount of paint to permantently remove defects such as swirls and scratches. We only use glazes to enhance gloss, but to be honest in most cases they are unneccesary after finishing with a high quality finishing polish by PC. Our resident expert on rotary polishing uses the rotary all the time when compounding, as it is indeed much quicker and able to effectively tackle harder paints. However, there is no way a car can be done to the standard we do them to in 3-4 hours. A full correction detail using the rotary still takes 7-8 hours even on softer paints. I know this is a very typical duration because I'm a member of the biggest detailing forum in the UK, and I talk to other professional detailers (not valeters) and view their work on a daily basis.

The methods recommended for PC use aren't set in stone - they are a good starting point for people to learn, and if you make one extra pass, or one less, at a slightly differet speed then no matter, this is how we all learn. But novices seek guidance, so we guide them, using tools, products and methods that are as safe and effective as possible. I appreciate your input, but please be careful not to encourage people to wade in over their heads and suffer as a result. I've worked hard on here to help members improve their skills and detail to to an ever higher level, and it is detailing that this forum section is all about, not valeting.

Rich @ PB

iTrader: (3)

How do you go about cleaning your pads off whilst on the job? And also how many pads would you say you need per car per product?

Two methods. 1) Rip it off, wash it out under cold water in the sink, wring out, then refit to the PC, drop the head into a bucket and spin it on speed 6 for 20 secs. 2) Ripe it off, lay it on a clean solid surface on the floor, jet wash it on high pressure, then spin dry it in the bucket with the PC as in method 1. I would recommend having two pads for each stage, which saves a bit of time.

I think i managed to get the paint to hot so it burnt from the under side? That how it'd work? If not god knows

Unlikely, the heat comes from the friction against the paint, so I'm stumped too. If you're a big guy used to working power tools hard then it may be that you simply need to be much more gentle. The pad should never fold up round the backing plate more than 2-3 mm, any more and you are pressing to hard. If you press too hard the products tend to gum up, clogging the pad. All that then happens is that the paint gets hot, no work is done, and you start to put fine marring into the paint. This may have been what happened. In the future keep the speed and pressure down (ie use the slow cut method), and wash the pads out regularly.

I was going at it quite hard so it's understandable why it did burn. Doesn't look to bad now it's all been polished over

Would you recommend multiple coats of wet diamond to increase the wetness or will this not acheive that look and i'll have to resort back to square 1?

Multiple coats of Wet Diamond are recommended, as you will see an increase in wetness, and the slickness of the paint will increase.

My car still has light scratches here and there so guess it needs doing again as i own the products now. So maybe more pads and a little experience will help

Yep, and maybe a revised approach. Next time be gentle, let the abrasives do their thing without forcing them, and keep the pads from clogging. The SRC twins are awesome on Impreza paint when you get it right, so stick with it and you'll get there. Phone is always on the day, don't hesitate to call if you want on the job help in future.

360ste

iTrader: (1)

Like anything using a PC is down to practice. Tonight I had a good practice a work mate of mine bought a Suzuki Vitara for £200 at a car boot sale. So we worked late on a couple of snags during which he asked if I had any T-cut. Told him I hadn't just something better, out came the PC and the menzes compound using the orange power pad, after washing the pad three or four times the car was finally done. 2 hours for a quick runover what a difference only problem was I had no camera for a before and after. When I first got my PC I practiced on my scoobies bonnet (it's F'd anyway). That's all you can do get a old panel and play bets of luck with your PC. Keep up the good work PB,

winston69

iTrader: (30)

Cheers fella

Would you recommend I try a yellow pad with the src compound this time round as i think i had to try to hard to remove some scratches?

This paint hadn't had any love in all it's 10 yrs i bet

Squarepusher

Not wanting to hi-jack the thread but....
What is the difference between pads, I thought the compound was doing the work?

Scudy23

iTrader: (2)

I havent had my PC for long but i would prefer to use this than stepping straight into a rotary machine.Never even seen one but what i've read they are for advanced user only.

If Winston69 is struggling with a PC, imagine the damage he could have caused to his car with a rotary,just keep practising fella,will send you a PM

richie001

iTrader: (3)

sound like it better to wash your car by hand rather then using machines

RapidSeven

Im not going to keep going on and on around in circles about this mate, and neither have I used the buffer as a finishing method.

The point I was trying to make, as you keep going on about how super-dooper the PC is, is that I can get EXACTLY the same finish on finished paintwork as you, him or her with my normal 70 quid vairiable speed single head buffer.

I never mask up the plastics and windows ( as there's no need to ) and remove ALL the swirl marks if I feel its needed. I don't know how you can say that to master the rotary is a skill that takes a long time to learn and that very few people have masterd, its not rocket science, its a very, very simple machine. In a fashion, all it is is a slow angle grinder with a soft pad that rotates at speed. Its all down to the quality of the chemicals used, not the machine.

In my honest opinion its all about choosing the correct chemicals for the job, ( important ) and depending on the finish you wish to achieve, its just time and effort. The skill factor you mentioned is cobblers, anyone with an ounce of common sense can use one. If you simplify it, a buffer is doing the job faster and more effienctly than what you can do manually, you have a machine doing the job, rather than by hand, and thats it.

My original point on this thread was that the PC is not the only way or means of " perfection " it never has been, and it never will be. I think you must be blindfolded by your PC to think people get to the same quality as you without using one.

Im not having a go at you personally mate, what you do is very very good, the finishes you acheive are outstanding, I have the upmost respect, as I know its tiring work, and to make a living from it, you deserve and earn every penny you charge, and I mean that most sincerely. Its very, very good.

No disrespect ever intended on my replies to you.

R7

Rich @ PB

iTrader: (3)

None taken mate, and I value your input. Line drawn here then, as I disagree strongly with most of what you have just written, but no point in having a never ending circular argument (pardon the pun, none intended) - folk now know your views, and they know mine, and they can decide for themselves which to follow.

Rich @ PB

iTrader: (3)

It is, but foam selection counts for a lot too. You try using a soft, black glazing pad with a compound, and then try it using a harder, orange pad with the same compound and see the difference in the result - it will be huge in terms of swirl correction and paint removal. Modern day machine polishing is all about making the right pad/product choice for the paint you are working on, and this only comes from experience. Getting it wrong either results in not enough work being done, or removing too much paint - hence why a paint gauge is an essential tool for machine polishing work.

Rich @ PB

iTrader: (3)

No, because the yellow pad causes more marring, and that's the last thing you need right now. I would continue with the existing pads/products, as they are the rigt tools for the job, it's just the method that needs to be sorted.

RapidSeven

This subject of the PC has really baffled me to be honest, I took it upon myself to call Derek ( the valeter who own's one ) to ask his opinion on the matter, and this is a bloke who's been valeting cars for 20 years, and probably buffed over a 1000 cars. Just a quick indication on the calibre of the bloke, he has a private contract with a well known premiership football club. So you have an idea the class of vehicles he attends to.

Derek told me that the PC is a very good piece of kit. He prefers to use a normal buffer when one is needed, as that's his own preference. He said there is no difference in the finished result in either of the machines, basically thats about it to be honest with you.

You said on your last post that folk know my views and yours, and can decide for themselves, fair point mate but a little selfish in my opinion, as I havent any evidence ( pictures ) if you want to call it that, to back up what im saying. Where as you have on your web-site. What I have noticed though, is that the pictures illustrated on your site are cars of high quality to start with, there always going to come up like a new pin.

Explain to me, and everyone else who's interested, why the PC is so much better than its counterpart. What attributes does it have that a normal one doesn't ? There basically the same sort of machine, so id like to know how you justify your reasons.

Im not having a go at you personally mate, this is a forum designed for members to share opinions, agree, disagree, laugh, joke, make friends, offer advice etc etc. All im saying is that the PC complete with all the kit is very very expensive and very very slow, and that there is a much much cheaper option that gives the same result.

Cheers,

R7

Rich @ PB

iTrader: (3)

The difference is simple (and we use rotary polishers to do the bulk of correction work we do, only really using the PC for correction work on soft paints and final polishing, as it's quicker and avoids the potential for leaving any machine induced defects like holograms, etc). Rotary polishers are harder to handle safely and have the potential to remove paint very quickly. For novices and home enthusiasts the PC offers an easy to use, safe way to get good results - I have helped many people get to grips with their newly purchased PC's, and many find it takes a fair while to get comfortable with it. Give these people a rotary from the off and they'd soon be in big trouble, with expensive paint repair bills - Mickey will hopefully forgive me for this, but he's been doing cars for years, and is experienced, but he managed to burn through on the first few goes with his rotary. I also know that one of the best detailers in the UK with many years of mopping experience who details for many celebrities recently burnt through on his own car, due to a momentary lapse of concentration. So, in summary, yes the PC and rotary give similar results in skilled hands, and yes both product choice and pad selection count for a lot on both machines, as does consideration of paint type. BUT in terms of giving advice to enthusiasts on forums such as this, the PC is the way to go, as it will enable them to achieve cracking results safely and effectively, avoiding costly mistakes, which is surely a good thing?