quattro

Happy Christmas to all members and management as good wishes matter most!

I would like to ask the Webmaster, Admninistrators and members who care and value ethical standards of general, and in pafrticular, commercial/business nature, to consider the following questions:

1) Why is it tolerated to have commercial/business entities posing as a member on this board and plainly, simply and very obviously 'comment and express opinions' when posting threads in response to genuine questions by 'real and proper' members which regularly accentuate the virtues of their products?

2) While some may say it is of no consequence whether Benny Boy (who, funnily enough used to 'be' a member under his name until recently) 'speaks' as himself or an exponent of ScoobyMania (or Pete Croney doing the same with ScoobySport, David Power with Power Engineering and Mark Underwood with Zymol), I think different approach DOES make a difference in as much that I expect ANY INDIVIDUAL MEMBER to be fair, ethical and unbiased in sharing his EXPERIENCE rather than use the bbs as a free advertising platform.

3) Some may beg to differ, but I do NOT wish to see names of businesses appear as members, unless, of course, a new cathegory is to be established which would regulate these matters appropriately and accordingly. And, before the issue gets confused in the usual manner, New Products cathegory is there (unless I misunderstood) to INFORM the members about new products, rather than CONVINCE them how good they might be.

4) I would like to believe that this board can and wants to maintain its usual high level of integrity and general 'reliability' in a number of important aspects, although some of the most recent events and developments would lead me to express doubts in this respect. I have also noticed that there are some 'elements' among us which most evidently and in a pretty simple and transparent manner
'misuse' the intents and purposes of this communication medium - at least the way I see it. I also noticed that a large number of members either do not really care or simply behave as they could not be bothered to anything but ignore such occurences, so if this is the way the majority wants it to be, I shall understand and accpet the 'rules'.

As always I just wish my thoughts to be of use and make all of us think about more serious directions and aspects of the bbs. Perhaps some constructive comments and progress can be achieved before it all becomes to 'cheap and profane'.

Regards
q.

PS. I would dearly like to believe it is a pure coincidence that out of 4 (four) people I listed above as 'representatives' of their respective businesses only one has his business name as a member, while others do not. Reading threads of all those mentioned, I think it is pretty clear who does what and how. Have a look for yourself.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

quattro,

I feel that it is a little sad that you feel so strongly about this - it is a subject that has been aired recently.

I felt that the solution was to have company representatives post under the company names, to ensure that any posts can be read with the 'caveat emptor' stamp.

To support this view I will relate my personal dealings with Whiteline in Australia regarding their Anti-Lift Kit and other low cost handling products...

...I have have an ongoing conversation with Whiteline via email which proved to be very enligtening and useful to me. These guys supply parts all over the world and are relatively unknown, although being Scooby specialists in some areas.

I felt that their contribution to the board would be of value, however Jim, their Sales Director was extremely reluctant to join up.

I then posted a question, asking the BBS community whether it was acceptable to have Whiteline join the board as a contributor. Perhaps you missed the post, but the responses was a unanimous YES. The comments made said that having technical expertise could only add depth to the postings on the board.

Since then, Whiteline have joined under their company name - and they have made one or two posts - mostly in response to people having problems or questions regarding their product.

I think that a judicious approach, with commercial posters making it clear which banner they are posting under can only help.

HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

David

quattro

Believe it or not, our dear Benny Boy already sent me a LONG message off line which, apart from being an amusing piece of reading at this very early hour of the morning has a number of interesting words applied. Not to mention the general tone and pretty obvious lack of manners and sens of politeness.

I shall be happy to forward his mail to me and my response (which is one and final to be) to those who email me off the board and your own conclusions will be all that matters.

For the record, if I wanted an off line communication I would have asked for it. But for someone who has been declared 'brainwashed' and having a 'bug up his a**e' among other things, I must have been overoptimistic.

q.

Jonas Hedvall

Oh dear ...

Lighten up. As you start your message, it is afterall, Christmas, and the people/companies you are slagging are held has dear by the mebers on this BBS as Santa Claus himself.

Except you, that is.

Jonas

GaryC

Happy Christmas and goodwill to all men - unless they run a business obviously!

Personally I welcome inclusion of Benny/Scoobmania, Pete/Scoobysport, Dave/Power Engineering, Mark/Zymol et. al.

We all have a quest for knowledge, these guys can help. They are not forcing you to buy, they are not even forcing you to read their mails. Information is useful - Knowledge is power. They also have the right to defend accusations/rumours/stories. Would you rather they were here in 'stealth' mode. At least you know who they are and any conflicts of interest! (do I qualify for a discount now?)

Plus it can be the only way to get hold of Pete Croney!!

robski

quattro,

bad night?

I am sorry, but I think the inclusion of all the above is worth while. I can only speak for Zymol representation, but that is top stuff. The others I have not dealt with yet, but will do in the future. Dont forget that Dave Power was one of the first to add sponsorship to this BBS when we thought we were going to loose it.

Your comment about Ben worries me tho, and I look forward to seeing his response "on line", otherwise I will be requesting a copy of that email.

Everyone has a right to free speech, just dont abuse it

robski

Lee

Go easy on Benny...he's been very very busy all week, then spent yesterday with no mail..he certainly was in a bad mood when I spoke to him late afternoon
and look at the time of his mail...

I can also see why he may have retorted in such a way, after all your mail does point the finger somewhat.

The difficulty with email/bbs is that you cant tell how to take things sometimes, whether they're meant as a light comment etc..

I think you'll find that Benny is very very enthusiastic about his company simply because (in their opinion ) they are sourcing the best products.

At the end of the day there will soon be a large number of owners with Possum Links..with such a UK base the support we get can only get better. The speediness at which the Links are arriving is down to Ben's company and recommendations on this BBS. If everyone is happy with their Links then I would say the BBS has succeeded in its aims.

Lee,
another happy customer of scoobymania, scoobysport and power engineering !

[This message has been edited by Lee (edited 23-12-1999).]

Richard F

Hmmmmmm

Most people are able to make their own minds up about a product or service before they buy it. Just because someone posts a message saying "oh yeah, we supply these and they're great" doesn't mean a thing. The "old" BPM was an example of this. It seems that they/he aren't so aggressive in the on-line marketing of their products as a result, which is a good thing.

Personally I don't have anything against people using their business names as it makes it very clear who they are and so, if they recommend a product, you can (if you wish) take it with a pinch of salt. I posted a message to a thread about fuelling yesterday and was sent an off-line reply from Ben, for which I'm very grateful. It gave me more information and a place to enquire further. I'm not just going to buy the product because he recommends it.

Maybe we could take the view that anybody who has a business related to Imprezas shouldn't be allowed on at all as whatever they posted could be viewed as an advert (however subtle or otherwise)? All this would achieve is the loss of a number of people with in depth knowledge on the subject (presumably that is, after all, why they have companies - because they are able to advise on as well as supply products and services).

I really don't want to offend anyone but, come on, we are all intelligent adults capable of detecting an advert when we see one. You wouldn't go and buy a Stannah (sp?) Stairlift just because Thora Hird says they're top would you?

Chill out...

GavinP

Merry Christmas everyone...

Maybe we should adopt the newspaper method of marking a posting with a ' T ' denoting trader

Or maybe we could just use common sense....

Thanks

Gavin

[This message has been edited by GavinP (edited 23-12-1999).]

quattro

Well, things are developing as expected. After only 5 reactions, I will be more than happy to let the anarchy develop as far as it needs to go. What I will, however, never allow, is to be treated by anyone (on or off the board) in mannerless and out of control manner as that is something I would never do to anyone no matter how much I disagreed (bad week or not, Lee).

It is obvious that no one really wants to know and it is all happening as when ' the Wild West was won'. Keep enjoying! In only a few months of reading and contributing to this board I have read quite enough about 'mishaps' and 'problems' due to an over-liberal acceptance of various suggestions and 'perfect solutions'.

I am sorry, but I do not slag anyone (only those who do not possess real substance do that) or have understanding for good or bad weeks. Also, I do not see any need for anyone to defend or accept rumours as rumours are things which should not even be taken seriously - that is why facts exist in life and I usually notice only them. I am not sure whether I need to 'lighten up' either (but am thinking about it), but I admit it is my problem I take things more seriously than most.

Finally, I am a bit puzzled to see a certain product being mentioned since my post had or has nothing to with any product. This is to me just another example of one of many issues connected to our cars being 'personalised' without any reason (or perhaps with??). My post clearly addressed principles and not specifics.

1800 members is more than 1 so I happily accept whatever others say. If nothing else those who feel 'attacked' now have a unique ooportunity to reinforce their position which, I am sure, is totally deserved and justified. Therefore, apologies for unintentional grief and inconvenience assuming some feel it has been caused with continued hopes that some of you will be able to read correctly what has been written.

I am off for a few days, so I will cause no more disturbance. You all relax and have a proper wonderful Christmas!

q.

PS. If it will make anyone feel better, I apologise for forgetting to list BPM as another company as a member. So, we have (to my knowledge 5 and not 4 'interested parties' I referred to'). God help Gregory if members decide to misunderstand me more and use him as a bad example to discuss my views!! Everyone else might look perfect


[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 23-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 23-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 23-12-1999).]

AlexM

Hi All,

As a 'community' we are failing to apply the same rules to all commercial entities who post to the BBS.

BPM were (rightly) lambasted for their overt promotion of products on the BBS, but it seems that a **slightly** more subtle advertising seems to be perfectly OK.

While I appreciate any contribution to our collective body of knowledge, I do object to several recent threads that have been started by companies or individuals affiliated with them purely for the purposes of promoting their own goods and services.

Moreover, I agree with 'Q' that there have been many instances of technical queries answered with thinly disguised 'infomercials' for products retailed by the companies in question. Yes, I also agree that most of us are capable of 'reading between the lines', but surely an off-line reply to the individual concerned serves this purpose just as well for all of those concerned.

Where do we draw the line? I thought that the Webmaster had recently quite explicitly prohibited product promotion (see

Mike Tuckwood

Quattro.

Most of the people you choose to list as 'interested parties' have all been members/contributors to this board for far longer than your 4 months, <I>I have made over 700 posts (some of which I wish I hadn't made). Benny Boy has made about 375 in his time on the board & Pete Croney over 300)</I>

My interest in Scooby Mania is no secret, in fact it was born from my passion for the cars, not because I wanted to get rich by feeding people a line, Pete Croney started Scoobysport under almost identical circumstances.

To imply that there is an overiding truth is obscure, different people see/want different things from diferent products. This is a good forum to discuss any such product.

I too am keen that stuff is not rammed down our throats by the companies mentioned but remember we are entitled to an opinion, we are Impreza drivers too you know.

As for the named persons commenting on this forum, we are entitled to.

It is a forum for all, Commercial interest has always been encouraged because the members often gain from it, and I agree that it should not be blatant and shameless.

The people from the companies mentioned are active club members and do not come on here just to sell (Some do)!

Have a nice Christmas.

Mike.

[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 23-12-1999).]

R19KET

I personally believe that anybody who has a commercial interest, "should" post, using the company name. Whilst most of us are fully aware of who is/isn't commercially driven, new members won't be.

I don't care "who" offers me a solution to any technical problem I may have. I do care that the solution offered is accurate.

As for "ethics", well we all set our own standards, some higher than others.

There will always be some conflict of interest, when someone offers a product they sell, as a solution to a problem, but I'm sure we're all able to identify what their motives are.

There are some very knowledgeable people on the bbs, and we can all choose who's advice to accept.

Mark.

Penni Whitehead

quattro

I too am sorry you feel so strongly. This issue was covered on more than one occasion previously if you care to look back a few months/weeks I think you'll find similar threads.

The webmaster and his administrators do/are monitoring what goes into the threads and are quick to jump in when they feel someone has overstepped the boundaries.

I can only speak for myself - but I certainly welcoming the posts from the people you have highlighted, for me it's a learning curve and this is a great source of information.

Calm down - chill out - and have a good Christmas.

P

Ian Cook

I cant speak for Phil, as he is away for a couple of days.

My personal opinion is, I agree companies posting should do so using the company name, if they are making a personal post they can do so using their own ID. This way can mean there is no misunderstanding, and the fact that some people have put "I have no connection with said company, except am a happy customer" strengthens this position. If the company has posted under their own name we all know who and why they posted their response, and as Mark (R19 KET) said we are all capable of making our minds up if what someone says is not true, and these people are usually publically criticised.

In the past we (the administrators) have been accused of over policing, under policing etc, and have discovered the old addage, "you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cant please all of the people all of the time", is very accurate.

When Phil is back, I am going to discuss some things with him, to see what HE wants us to do regards the commercial postings, especially the totally blatant ones. When he lets us know is position on it, which i think he already did with the post mentioned, we will act on it. Regardless of whether they have banners or not.

You have to remember that companies can only talk through experience of their own products or products they have used, so some solutions could only be given by saying "this product would cure your problem" and i have seen some posts saying "we sell these but wouldnt recommend it unless you want to spend a lot more on the car" ??????

We are all (mostly) adults so a bit of discretion may be needed, but also a little tolerance as well.

You could also say name calling and other derogatory statements have no place on this BBS, nor do jokes or anything else, but these happen, and some do brighten up some of the more serious posts, others definitely do not.

chrisp

At the moment we have member status on every post ie Junior member, Member, Adminstrator. Could we not have another category such as Trader, Dealer or Commercial member or something equally appropiate.

Personally i have been on the BBS for quite a while and know all the commercial guys and understand where they are coming from. For someone new this takes time and may help the learning process.


Just an idea and merry christmas,

chrisp

JohnS

iTrader: (1)

The membership status is part of the software used for this BBS, and isn't configurable.

We can control the number of posts required for someone to change from Junior Member to Member, and that's it (well they could be renamed to different words, but that doesn't really help in this situation). Administrator privilege is something granted by the webmaster, and gives us the ability to close or delete threads, and delete individual posts if required Thankfully something we very rarely have to do

Most regular members of this BBS are well aware of who the various commercial organisations are, and can make up their own mind whether anything posted is commercially orientated. It's often a fine line between a helpful reply to a question which lists a product which may solve a particular owner's problem, and blatant commercialism. Different members have different threshholds which they will tolerate before doing something about it.

Please remember that us admins can't watch this BBS every second of every day, and by the time we read some of the more "controversial" posts, there may be a dozen or more replies. This can make it very difficult to do anything about it without upsetting lots of people.

Josh L

Whilst I am a little bewildered by the tone of Quattro's unprevoked posting, I think there is an element of sense, and compromise in Ian's suggestions.

I can see how newer members might be mislead by postings from Benny, Pete etc, but it's not a problem for a vast majority of us, we know who they are.

Having said that, I can only recollect one user ever having abused the system that's BPM, and to be fair, some of that was just over enthusiasm.

Personally, I would hate to see a situation where people like Pete Croney are reluctant to post for fear of being accused of self promotion. When I was new to Scooby ownership I found him nothing but helpful. If there was anything that he felt we should know, he told us. Whether there was anything in it for him or not, and far as I can see Dave Power has never been anything other than completely straight with the BBS.

Obviously Quattro has the BBS's interests at heart, but if it's not broke, don't fix it.

A very merry Christmas to one and all

Josh

Anders

I am sad that Branco/Quattro and Benny have fallen out.

Benny is a good friend through adversity, he was there at Wroughton when my Poor Engineering remap showed its true colours and he comforted me down the pub whilst I was waiting for the AA trailer. Benny was able to set up a rescue package when I revealed the full extent of my despair with Poor Engineering. In short he has been a personal asset.

Branco/Quattro is the opposite in terms of personality, I have relished talking with him.

He is a true font of considered knowledge and resents companies implying a level of knowledge and expertise that they do not deserve to imply. Whilst this is easy for me to embrace regarding snake-oil salesmen, I can understand Benny getting his knickers in a twist over Quattro casting aspersions about him. I am would like to believe that Scooby Mania do not need to be tarred with the same brush as Poor Engineering be it from Uxbridge, Auto Sportif or even BPM!

I hope they make it up soon as they are both assets to the BBS

I still reserve the right to comment on "tuning equipment" even if Mark Ottoway finds it boring!

quattro

Just a 'few' very final clarifications:

I have not implied or suggested that any of the people involved in business/commerce who have posted contributions on this board have ever done or said anything wrong!!
My one and only comment was that they have used their name rather than the name of their business. Think what you wish, but I insist that this should be separated to keep things clean and systematic. So, there was no criticism of those mentioned with their names (including the only ones who felt 'attacked' and/or hurt!!!!) for what they do in or with their respective businesses!
I would never allow myself to take the liberty to judging the seriousness or quality of their work unless I had first hand experience of that and then I would be equally open for good and bad. Is that clear, please?

I have a feeling that some of you who reacted, may have(mis)understood (?)and felt I tried to 'slag' all the people we know and talk to or about so often on this bbs and elsewhere. No way - there is a big difference in what is done to how it is done.

So, for one more time: cast of characters is not the important detail unless someone deliberately wants it to be (and that is one constant of the behaviour of most who contribute - sacrifical lambs are always welcome, aren't they?).

Practice, policies and joint decisions of those who run and those who keep this board alive in order to define some basic rules of engagement is what I would like to see happen.

Oh, I do not expect the Webmaster and the Administrator to 'police' the board on a daily or hourly basis. But, I do feel they need to to steer and direct the rest of us in a direction (or away if required) which will reflect some degree of seriousness in approach and execution. In my 6 or so months of presence with this board, I think they were doing a pretty good job, but new situations do and will arise every now and then.

I carefully read all the reactions so far many times. I respect and value all voices and opinions, but continue to be sad after realising that heavily coloured personal 'appeals' dominate, while rational and/or constructive thoughts (apart from those criticising me and donating attributes and 'suggestions' of all kind for which I am grateful and by which I am not offended)are far less of. But, that is the way the 'system' works and I am happy to accept this as it is for as long as majority feels it is fine (which they very obviously do).

Finally, a few specifics. I have not fallen out with Ben (Anders) as I cannot fall out with someone I even do not know let alone have anything to do with. As I said to him directly, he is totally and completely inconsequential in this matter for me as would be any other individual.
Also, I do not wish to 'bewilder' anyone, but reality sometimes does that.
I do not understand the meaning of threads which do nothing else but say how pleased customers happen to be. That was never ever a question or an issue - or should it, perhaps, be 'used' as an 'for/against' leverage? Again, for me, I do not even wish to consider that any of the businessess which this board so strongly supports should ever do anything but excellent things for their clients, so what is so special about it? Let us not again confuse the issue.
As far as Mike Tuckwood's reaction is concerned, I desperately tried and could not see any meaning in or of it. What does it mean that we are all Impreza drivers and what does a number of posts on the board and the longevity of the status of a member really mean? Is this to say that the longer you contribute the more valid your findings and views might be? Well, fine, I could be here for 50 years and 'consistently improve the level of stupidity my posts would be demonstrating'.

Anyway, the whole discussion is becoming even more pointless than I predicted and I must really be one of the very few people here who does not know too much (or even enough) let alone everything about Impreza (as so many others claim and seem to)and how to make it a more fulfilling car, but, at the same time, have a pretty clear idea what to do to make it happen. I shall always need those people in business who can supply parts and level of service I require and expect (and a very few of them exist and I am very happy with what they do as their existing customer), but, thankfully, very few (if any) of the existing ones I shall ever need to guide me, convince me or tell me what to do.This may be the worst 'elitist' piece of nonsense you have ever heard, but I cannot but believe that 'all the Impreza drivers' should learn and have at least minimal real knowledge about their car and how it works themselves, rather than subscribe to all variations of more or less cheap powers of external convictions. Alchemy is not the 'science' I subscribe on and thanks to this bbs I will be privileged to monitor the events and run the statistics of successess and failures.

In order not to create more unnecessary discussions which do nothing else but hurt egos and make vanities suffer, I shall,with immediate effect, take an indefinite sabbatical from the bbs as an actively contributing member. I see no reason to resign (unless someone wants me to, of course), but see no use or benefit to contribute further either. Those who may feel what I think and say is not totally and utterly useless are always welcome to reach me off line through the email address available and I shall be only too happy and delighted to communicate with them and share experience and the minute amount of knowledge about cars and associated machinery I may have gathered over the years.

My final and really very, very best wishes to individuals, businessess and all those associated therein for a wonderful x-mas, extremely healthy, happy and prosperous New Year 2000 and lots of fun with our dear Imprezas even if the only last as long as it takes to be the fastest down the first available straight.

Be well.

q.