Alkatec/Simtek or ESL
29 August 2013, 07:36 PM
#31
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29 August 2013, 08:35 PM
#32
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The fact remains Alcatek doesn't have 8 maps, it has 2. In fact are the 2 maps it does have full maps or subsets and offsets? In ESL every parameter is replicated to give you two completely independent ECUs.
I understand Alcatek also doesn't have diagnostic codes, the ability to run both MAF or MAFless load and can't lay claim to OEM drive quality.
If both solutions were similarly priced then it might be a fairer fight, but when one is almost half the price of the other then I think the 'no brainer' for VFM comes down squarely in ESLs court.
In your example below, as you only have 2 ignition maps to play with, are you using the same ignition for the 1/1.5/2 bar 97 RON maps?
I understand Alcatek also doesn't have diagnostic codes, the ability to run both MAF or MAFless load and can't lay claim to OEM drive quality.
If both solutions were similarly priced then it might be a fairer fight, but when one is almost half the price of the other then I think the 'no brainer' for VFM comes down squarely in ESLs court.
In your example below, as you only have 2 ignition maps to play with, are you using the same ignition for the 1/1.5/2 bar 97 RON maps?
MAF, no thanks !
OEM drive quality and better is absolutely achievable, it just requires the right amount of effort on the map. My wife's 94 Wagon fitted with an Alcatek ecu drives better than it ever did OEM and returns better MPG to boot.
Moving on to mine, yes it runs the same ignition map at all 3 boost levels.
Why wouldn't it ? It's still the same fuel after all !
01 September 2013, 09:38 AM
#34
Simtek is not Alcatek.
Simtek has their own new ecu which is completely different and to my knowledge very few mappers/dealers in the uk. Most mappers/dealers such as martyn, jgm, me etc stick with Alcatek as this was always the real name of the ecu underneath steve simpsons branding. As Steve is no longer doing that the real name of alcatek is used.
As far as which is better, which is worse etc, I supply, fit and map both and they are both great solutions.
nb There aren't power levels at which one is better than the other though as we run 550 bhp on the esl demo car on the esl ecu.
Simtek has their own new ecu which is completely different and to my knowledge very few mappers/dealers in the uk. Most mappers/dealers such as martyn, jgm, me etc stick with Alcatek as this was always the real name of the ecu underneath steve simpsons branding. As Steve is no longer doing that the real name of alcatek is used.
As far as which is better, which is worse etc, I supply, fit and map both and they are both great solutions.
nb There aren't power levels at which one is better than the other though as we run 550 bhp on the esl demo car on the esl ecu.
01 September 2013, 09:41 AM
#35
oh and cost wise to map alcatek is generally £250 for full map, £150 for major tweaks and add another £50 for set up install of air temp sensor, map sensor if these are not already done.
^ These will obviously be higher if complex map, fuel, nitrous combinations such as those martyn has described are needed.
^ These will obviously be higher if complex map, fuel, nitrous combinations such as those martyn has described are needed.
01 September 2013, 09:46 AM
#36
Simtek is not Alcatek.
Simtek has their own new ecu which is completely different and to my knowledge very few mappers/dealers in the uk. Most mappers/dealers such as martyn, jgm, me etc stick with Alcatek as this was always the real name of the ecu underneath steve simpsons branding. As Steve is no longer doing that the real name of alcatek is used.
As far as which is better, which is worse etc, I supply, fit and map both and they are both great solutions.
nb There aren't power levels at which one is better than the other though as we run 550 bhp on the esl demo car on the esl ecu.
Simtek has their own new ecu which is completely different and to my knowledge very few mappers/dealers in the uk. Most mappers/dealers such as martyn, jgm, me etc stick with Alcatek as this was always the real name of the ecu underneath steve simpsons branding. As Steve is no longer doing that the real name of alcatek is used.
As far as which is better, which is worse etc, I supply, fit and map both and they are both great solutions.
nb There aren't power levels at which one is better than the other though as we run 550 bhp on the esl demo car on the esl ecu.
01 September 2013, 10:53 PM
#37
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Z4 ecu Esl daughterboard advice please
Hi all I have a gc8 94 standard ecu recently purchased a bargain priced z4 ecu with daughterboard fitted I am told it has 2 sets of chips that can be plugged into the board can both these chips be set in different modes ie 1 for town driving and 1 set for track driving also what is the average cost of a remap if any one has any info would be much appreciated thanks
02 September 2013, 09:11 AM
#38
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I think you are being disingenuous by continuing to insist it has 8 maps, when clearly it only has 2, as you have stated below.
ESL has 2 full maps in which every single parameter is duplicated. From what you have said, the Alcatek only has a subset available on its second map.
Most people do choose to go MAFless but as you will be aware the exponential response of the MAF gives better idle and light cruise control for those that don't wish to exceed the headroom of their existing MAF.
OEM run quality is of course subjective, but what isn't subjective is the fact that ESL will come with an OEM map to start with, so only we can claim to have genuine OEM driveability.
So on your lowest boost setting you lose half the map resolution?
And of course you only list 2 fuel options as you only have 2 fuel maps.
ESL has 2 full maps in which every single parameter is duplicated. From what you have said, the Alcatek only has a subset available on its second map.
Most people do choose to go MAFless but as you will be aware the exponential response of the MAF gives better idle and light cruise control for those that don't wish to exceed the headroom of their existing MAF.
OEM run quality is of course subjective, but what isn't subjective is the fact that ESL will come with an OEM map to start with, so only we can claim to have genuine OEM driveability.
So on your lowest boost setting you lose half the map resolution?
And of course you only list 2 fuel options as you only have 2 fuel maps.
The Alcatek has 2 full ignition maps, 2 full fuel maps, 2 full wastegate duty tables, 2 full boost target tables, 2 full closed loop lambda target tables, 2 full ALS maps and many many offset options which when added together give you access to up to 8 maps. Not 8 ecus, who needs more than one full ecu for one car ?
MAF, no thanks !
OEM drive quality and better is absolutely achievable, it just requires the right amount of effort on the map. My wife's 94 Wagon fitted with an Alcatek ecu drives better than it ever did OEM and returns better MPG to boot.
Moving on to mine, yes it runs the same ignition map at all 3 boost levels.
Why wouldn't it ? It's still the same fuel after all !
MAF, no thanks !
OEM drive quality and better is absolutely achievable, it just requires the right amount of effort on the map. My wife's 94 Wagon fitted with an Alcatek ecu drives better than it ever did OEM and returns better MPG to boot.
Moving on to mine, yes it runs the same ignition map at all 3 boost levels.
Why wouldn't it ? It's still the same fuel after all !
02 September 2013, 09:14 AM
#39
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What a shame for your customers and a shame you feel you cannot support a domestic solution that offers the best VFM for classic owners. Not everyone wants to spend £1100 on an ECU, in some instances that will be more than the car is worth.
02 September 2013, 09:28 AM
#40
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We have been adding to the firmware spec over a period of time, and are just testing the map switch on a physical switch routine as the last piece of functionality. I am in the process of writing secure update routines so updates can be carried out easily in the field to avoid the "logistical nightmare" as Martyn refers to it of the Alcatek upgrade.
It is very comprehensive, although I have always said unless you are into competition you should focus on what you need for a road car, i.e., OEM driveability, closed loop idle, a diagnostic facility and knock control etc. LC is not really compatible with TY752 5 speed gearboxes.
If you just want the sound of ALS it can be mapped into any ECU for free.
It is very comprehensive, although I have always said unless you are into competition you should focus on what you need for a road car, i.e., OEM driveability, closed loop idle, a diagnostic facility and knock control etc. LC is not really compatible with TY752 5 speed gearboxes.
If you just want the sound of ALS it can be mapped into any ECU for free.
02 September 2013, 11:05 AM
#41
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I think you are being disingenuous by continuing to insist it has 8 maps, when clearly it only has 2, as you have stated below.
ESL has 2 full maps in which every single parameter is duplicated. From what you have said, the Alcatek only has a subset available on its second map.
OEM run quality is of course subjective, but what isn't subjective is the fact that ESL will come with an OEM map to start with, so only we can claim to have genuine OEM driveability.
So on your lowest boost setting you lose half the map resolution?
And of course you only list 2 fuel options as you only have 2 fuel maps.
ESL has 2 full maps in which every single parameter is duplicated. From what you have said, the Alcatek only has a subset available on its second map.
OEM run quality is of course subjective, but what isn't subjective is the fact that ESL will come with an OEM map to start with, so only we can claim to have genuine OEM driveability.
So on your lowest boost setting you lose half the map resolution?
And of course you only list 2 fuel options as you only have 2 fuel maps.
On my own car it allows me to have at WOT anything from 380bhp to 540bhp dependant on my mood, on the same fuel with just the push of a button.
The fact that it loses resolution on the lower boost maps is neither here nor there and matters not to me or the users of Syvecs ecus either, as they use the same system, all be it with 4 fuel maps and 4 ignition maps. They advertise it as having 12 maps now, would you argue the same case there ?
We supply a very good stock car base map with the Alcatek ecu and on request will allow for injector changes, MAP sensor swaps etc.
I've often sent base maps to other tuners to speed up their tuning process !
02 September 2013, 11:07 AM
#42
Scooby Regular
No offence to the owners of these cheap classics, but if the ecu is more than the car is worth, I'd be worried about tuning it full stop, as a blown engine will almost certainly write it off.
02 September 2013, 05:37 PM
#43
We have been adding to the firmware spec over a period of time, and are just testing the map switch on a physical switch routine as the last piece of functionality. I am in the process of writing secure update routines so updates can be carried out easily in the field to avoid the "logistical nightmare" as Martyn refers to it of the Alcatek upgrade.
It is very comprehensive, although I have always said unless you are into competition you should focus on what you need for a road car, i.e., OEM driveability, closed loop idle, a diagnostic facility and knock control etc. LC is not really compatible with TY752 5 speed gearboxes.
If you just want the sound of ALS it can be mapped into any ECU for free.
It is very comprehensive, although I have always said unless you are into competition you should focus on what you need for a road car, i.e., OEM driveability, closed loop idle, a diagnostic facility and knock control etc. LC is not really compatible with TY752 5 speed gearboxes.
If you just want the sound of ALS it can be mapped into any ECU for free.
Any idea's on when? And how I can get my hands on it soon?
Its dependant I think, someone who's spending £10k-£15k or over will factor in for a top of the range ECU like Alcatek or even Syvecs.
09 September 2013, 06:12 PM
#44
Ive just read this thread and pretty much laughed at the whole thing. My fully standard type r was fitted with an alcatek ecu on friday in double quick time over lunch with martyn at Aj's . . once all the hardware was fitted the key was turned and the car delivered a perfect idle straight out of the box.
All of this oem quality bollocks is just that! My car now drives better, delivers slightly better mpg (although its negligible) and made more power at the same boost level!
Im not one for inflating peoples ego's usually . . Infact im more used to shooting them down with my day job but on this occasion martyn and more importantly the unit delivered on all its claims and more
All of this oem quality bollocks is just that! My car now drives better, delivers slightly better mpg (although its negligible) and made more power at the same boost level!
Im not one for inflating peoples ego's usually . . Infact im more used to shooting them down with my day job but on this occasion martyn and more importantly the unit delivered on all its claims and more
09 September 2013, 07:49 PM
#45
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-25 starts first turn of the key, friends always comment when were on a run how smooth it sounds through the rev range when I give it some, simtek/alcatek on a classic type R worth every penny
09 September 2013, 09:28 PM
#46
I have alcatek installed and mapped by JGM. It's the best mod I've done to my car. Can't comment on ESL. But compared to oem? You must be having a laugh. Alcatek all the time. Better start up. Better idle. Runs soo fuxking smooth. No flat spots. 2 maps. All the other extras. It's no brainer.
09 September 2013, 10:24 PM
#50
Tough choices indeed.
The way i see it is it is all about the use you have for the car.
My car it made sense to have the alkatek upgrade, as with the short ratio box with the flat foot shifting it should make it ballistic. Plus the other useful features for track, closed loop knock etc!
For a road car alot of the features arent as useful, what is your aim for the project etc?
The way i see it is it is all about the use you have for the car.
My car it made sense to have the alkatek upgrade, as with the short ratio box with the flat foot shifting it should make it ballistic. Plus the other useful features for track, closed loop knock etc!
For a road car alot of the features arent as useful, what is your aim for the project etc?
was nosing around it in the car park whilst mine was on the dyno on friday
09 September 2013, 10:34 PM
#54
haha any time. Ah yeah parked in the corner! I picked it up on friday evening, well worh the wait! what figures did you get? welcome to pop out any time for a spin
10 September 2013, 06:33 AM
#57
Tough choices indeed.
The way i see it is it is all about the use you have for the car.
My car it made sense to have the alkatek upgrade, as with the short ratio box with the flat foot shifting it should make it ballistic. Plus the other useful features for track, closed loop knock etc!
For a road car alot of the features arent as useful, what is your aim for the project etc?
The way i see it is it is all about the use you have for the car.
My car it made sense to have the alkatek upgrade, as with the short ratio box with the flat foot shifting it should make it ballistic. Plus the other useful features for track, closed loop knock etc!
For a road car alot of the features arent as useful, what is your aim for the project etc?
Ultimately the car will become a weekend car, with the possibility of track days thrown in. I haven't got massive power targets as I kept my last scoob for 7 years and hope to keep this even longer, I'm looking for longevity as well as a good set up. Having a 2.1 bottom end will give me a good base if I want to go further, twin scroll or even a shot of NOS maybe. Alcatek is definately the way I want to go, eventually, but it looks as though buying a second hand one right now will cost the same as having an ESL mapped anyway.
10 September 2013, 07:54 PM
#60
Unmapped 12.4s @ 105
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Right now the car just needs to be on the road. My Mrs has just been given a great opportunity to work in a Beauty salon. The Lady who owns it is the assessor on the hair dressing course she starts next week (£1200!), so she will have the best chance to get a real leg up. Unfortunately she isn't really earning yet and she needs to start at 4pm every day, which means getting the kids from school etc and rushing about. Having only one car is just ****ing everything up. I could buy an old banger but by the time I MOT, tax, insure it I can only see it crippling the project.
Ultimately the car will become a weekend car, with the possibility of track days thrown in. I haven't got massive power targets as I kept my last scoob for 7 years and hope to keep this even longer, I'm looking for longevity as well as a good set up. Having a 2.1 bottom end will give me a good base if I want to go further, twin scroll or even a shot of NOS maybe. Alcatek is definately the way I want to go, eventually, but it looks as though buying a second hand one right now will cost the same as having an ESL mapped anyway.
Ultimately the car will become a weekend car, with the possibility of track days thrown in. I haven't got massive power targets as I kept my last scoob for 7 years and hope to keep this even longer, I'm looking for longevity as well as a good set up. Having a 2.1 bottom end will give me a good base if I want to go further, twin scroll or even a shot of NOS maybe. Alcatek is definately the way I want to go, eventually, but it looks as though buying a second hand one right now will cost the same as having an ESL mapped anyway.
Get an ESL fitted and mapped, IMO. When the ALS is released for it, Andy would be able to confirm, I'd imagine it would be a firmware upgrade and a map tweak.
That's what I'd probably do, if I was to ever get mine mapped. Doubt I ever will though.
