Sambob

They don't have to, they can stand if they wish.

Martin2005

And that's your answer is it

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I think you mean adversity btw

trails

iTrader: (41)

Yup, if more people worried about putting thier own houses in order instead of worrying about what has nothing to do with them as a society we would be better off...certainly in this context.

Sorry but what does that site prove exactly...nothing; just A Typical scaremongoring; "If marriage is redefined once, what is to stop it being redefined to allow polygamy?"

Well at least we agree on something.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?! Your arguments are based on an outdated bigoted perspective which reinforced Daves argument for 'making Britain a better place' therefore making it easier to push the bill through. Whereas if you were to raise objections from a different angle (the erosion of the rights of devout Christians’ perhaps?), that wouldn't be an issue.

Sambob

Cmon, you can't be serious! The implications of re-defining marriage are huge!

10 reasons why the government is wrong to redefine marriage:

Reason 1
It will undermine marriage
Evidence shows that redefining marriage
actually undermines support for marriage
in wider society. Neither has it delivered
the promised stability for same-sex
couples. In Spain, after gay marriage
was introduced, marriage rates across
the whole population plummeted.1 In
the Netherlands too there has been a
significant fall in the marriage rate since
marriage was redefined.2 Same-sex
marriage does not promote marriage.

Reason 2
Marriage is part of our history
Marriage between a man and a woman
is not a recent social invention. Everyone
knows that marriage predates law, nation
and church. It goes back to the dawn of
time. Yes, matrimonial law may have been
tweaked over the years, but the law has
never fundamentally altered the essential
nature of marriage: a lifelong commitment
between one man and one woman. Samesex
marriage would rewrite hundreds
of years of British legal tradition and
thousands of years of cultural heritage.

Reason 3
Equality already exists
Same-sex couples already have equality.
All the legal rights of marriage are already
available to same-sex couples through
civil partnerships. Equality doesn’t
mean bland uniformity or state-imposed
sameness. If the Government genuinely
wants to pursue equality, why is it banning
heterosexual couples from entering a civil
partnership? Same-sex couples have equal
rights through civil partnerships, but they
don’t have the right to redefine marriage
for everyone else.

Reason 4
Impact on schools
The current law requires schools to teach
children about the importance of marriage.
If marriage is given a new definition, it
will be endorsed in schools. According
to expert legal advice, any teacher who
fails to endorse same-sex marriage in the
classroom could be dismissed. Parents
will have no legal right to withdraw their
children from lessons which endorse
same-sex marriage across the curriculum.
Already supporters of gay marriage are
recommending books for use in schools
which undermine traditional marriage, and
call on schools to get children to act out
gay weddings.3 The effect on schools will
be polarising and divisive.

Reason 5
Thin end of the wedge
If we redefine marriage once, what’s to
stop marriage being redefined yet further?
If marriage is solely about love and
commitment between consenting adults,
what’s to say we shouldn’t recognise threeway
relationships? It’s already happened in
nations that redefined marriage. In Brazil, a
three-way relationship was given marriagelike
recognition under civil partnership
laws.4 A similar situation has existed in the
Netherlands for several years.5 In Canada
after marriage was redefined, a polygamist
argued in court that his relationship should
be recognised in law.6 When politicians
meddle with marriage it all starts to
unravel.

Reason 6
Marginalises the majority
Calling opponents “bigots” is meant
to shut down debate and stop people
thinking for themselves. Nick Clegg
landed in hot water over a draft speech
which called opponents of redefining
marriage “bigots”.7 He later retracted the word, but there’s no doubt that many who support this radical agenda think
anyone who disagrees is not worthy of
respect. However, support for traditional
marriage has come from many respected
academics, lawyers, politicians of all
parties, and religious leaders. They all
know that redefining marriage would have
a profound impact.

Reason 7
Many gay people don’t want it
Polling shows that only a minority of
gay people (39 per cent) believe gay
marriage is a priority.8 And according to
the Government only 3 per cent of gay
people would enter a same-sex marriage.9
A number of gay celebrities and journalists
are themselves opposed to gay marriage.
Latest official data shows that only 0.5 per
cent of households are headed by a samesex
couple.10 Not all of them want, or will
enter, a same-sex marriage. So, why is
such a monumental change being imposed
throughout society?

Reason 8
The public don’t want it
Seven in ten people want to keep
marriage as it is.11 Other polling which
purports to show public support for gay
marriage fails to tell respondents that
equal rights are already available through
civil partnerships.12 When people are told
this crucial fact, most people say keep
marriage as it is.13 MPs say their postbags
have been dominated by public opposition
to redefining marriage.14 Ordinary people
want the Government to concentrate
on reviving the economy and providing
better public services, not meddling with
marriage.15

Reason 9
A huge change to society
Since we already have civil partnerships,
isn’t same-sex marriage just a small logical
next step? No. Rewriting the meaning
of marriage will have a far-reaching
impact on society. Over 3,000 laws make
reference to marriage. The Government
has already admitted that official
documents will need to be rewritten to
remove words like ‘husband’ and ‘wife’.
In France the Government is eradicating
the words ‘father’ and ‘mother’ from
all official documents. The Church of
England has warned that it could lead
to disestablishment and a constitutional
crisis.16

Reason 10
Freedom of conscience will be eroded
The civil liberty of people who believe
in traditional marriage is already being
eroded. A housing manager from
Manchester was demoted and lost 40
per cent of his salary for stating, outside
work time, that gay weddings in churches
were “an equality too far”.17 Conferences
and symposiums in support of traditional
marriage have been thrown out of venues.
Adverts in support of a 600,000-strong
public petition in favour of traditional
marriage have been investigated as
“offensive”.18 And all this has taken place
before any change to the law has taken
place. What will it be like if the law does
change? A leading human rights lawyer
has outlined the devastating impact of
redefining marriage on civil liberties.19

For references: http://c4m.org.uk/downloads/10reasons.pdf

Sambob

yes i did, sorry, thanks

trails

iTrader: (41)

How difficult is it for you to grasp that what you consider normal is your norm not everybody elses. Just because homosexuality (or whatever else you don’t consider normal), isn't your norm doesn’t make it wrong...and just because it was persecuted in the past doesn’t mean it should be persecuted now and in the future.

You need to go read the definition of truth and then go read the definition of opinion...I think you will find it enlightening

Sambob

It re-enforces nothing. You are trying to make my argument out to be oldfasioned, bigoted, etc etc. Sorry but I am not old fashioned just because I hold views which have been held by our ancestors.

If Dave wants to use that against us, fine, but I won't change my views to suit his or anyone elses agendas.

Sambob

EXACTLY! Oh I grasp this alright, but I'm not sure everyone else does. So with that in mind, lets go over the facts.

Many, many people consider homosexuality to be abnormal, we have as much right to think this as you do to think its normal! But when we voice our opinions on it, all hell breaks loose and we are branded bigots, idiots and more!

Please can you tell me how that is equality? Can you explain why I shouldn't have a say on my children being educated and indoctrinated to believe that homosexuality is good and normal and that they should question their own sexuality?

Why am I being made out to be the minority when in fact its the other way around?

I could go on, and on, and on, but I think I am wasting my time with you and a couple of others.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

For goodness sake you can't learn to be homosexual!!! Why can you people not grasp this fact?

trails

iTrader: (41)

But I'm passive...the point is your opinion has a negative impact on individuals...mine is live and let live. I'd challenge the "many, many people" statement and ask you to quatify and evidence that too.

You should have a say in the education of your children but to base it on the mock publications from that website is a bit blinkered. "good and normal" as defined by you is back to your opinion not fact. Where has anyone said kids would questions thier own sexuality?!?!

I honestly don't know what you mean; has a nationwide poll been undertaken (of course it would have to show significant numbers polled from across society as a whole to be of any value)...

You have gone on and on trust me

The irony here is that you have missed the fact that I don't believe same sex marriages should be allowed, the civil ceremony is enough in my opinion. Numbers 2, 3, 6 and 9 are great arguments to oppose this...bigotry isn't.

Sambob

Hogs wash. Homosexuality is not genetic. It is environmental.

I know guys who are feminine and heterosexual & I know girls who are masculine and are heterosexual.

It is many of the views of this modern society which are confusing people and when you start indoctrinating a very young child to believe that homosexuality is good and normal, and that they should question and study their own sexuality, and even act out gay marriages, what sort of outcome is this going to have? More homosexuals of course!

trails

iTrader: (41)

How many homosexuals do you know Sambob...I think we can all have a pretty good stab at that if you will forgive the turn of phrase

You sound like my (now departed), gran in her nineties...she used to claim being gay was just a "fashion"...and also used to comment on how nice the "natives kept their gardens".

You are aware the world is no longer flat...and there is a pretty darn good chance the universe was not created in seven days

Sambob

I tire of your non-sense now. Look at the poll on this forum for some indication and the 600,000+ signatories on http://c4m.org.uk/

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Right then. Stop reading that horsesh1t on the website you love and start reading some scientific fact. You cannot become gay! Until you grasp that your comments are a waste of keyboard strokes and you are wasting our time here.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Looking on the bright side urban has a new friend

Sambob

I also tire of your non-sense.

Sambob

Ok, you continue to believe that mate Yes, I am wasting my time with some of you. No more now.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I'll believe it 'mate' because unlike nearly everything you have posted here it is a cast iron fact established by science not a load of conjecture and opinion dressed up as fact by people stuck in the dark ages!

Sambob

So I'm a bigot because I do not agree that homosexuality is normal?

trails

iTrader: (41)

and your endless quoting a single website confirms your blinkered outlook. In 2011 there were just under just under 63 billion people living in the UK...do you need me to express your 600,000 signatories in terms of percentage?

trails

iTrader: (41)

actually you have no argument to repost my statements...I'd imagine that is pretty wearing

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

I know immigration is out of control, but it's not that high!

Sambob

You really talk absolute garbage. Not once have you offered any references to any of your statements and you expect people to believe what you are saying, just because YOU say so. I have posted references to alot of what I have written but you have not included any documentation with your argument whatsoever.

Stop being a total moron and back up what you are saying with a bit more evidence than you are doing, not that it really matters to me anyways because I know you don't want to change your views, so there is no point me trying to do this, but for the benefit of everyone else who may view this thread, if you were to read through the entire post objectively you will see who is talking out of their ****.

trails

iTrader: (41)

your use of the word normal is not appropriate in the context of this discussion...have you not figured that out yet?

You need to work on your understanding of the English language if you do not understand why I am labelling you a bigot. From dictionary.com; "bigot as defined in a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race"

Sambob

No, I just don't see the point in arguing with someone who is willing to brand me a bigot because my views don't match theirs.

trails

iTrader: (41)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20757480

Sambob

I see, so because I am not tolerant of accepting homosexuality as normal, that means that I am now intolerant of ANY ideas that are not my own? as per definition....shows your level of intelligence!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

If you want to see a moron look in the mirror.

Sambob

OK, not going to waste any more time arguing with you guys on a personal level, you are purposely trolling me now. I am just going to straight bombard you with the facts!