Comet – gone bust and the Tax payer picking up the redundancy bill to the tune of £50 million

And yet a Venture Capitalist outfit were given a £50 million dowry to run it as a going concern less than a year ago – it seems all that money is gone (presumably on hookers, fast cars and cocaine – so not totally wasted)

There does seem to be a perversion in modern capitalism where risk and reward are not aligned, they get the reward, with little or no risk – the Tax payer bears the ultimate cost

Seen to devastating effect in the US – no wonder the Americans are so confused at the moment

And yet, as you say the poor and unemployed are demonised

We do need to look at the welfare system but it is not the sole cause of the parlous state we are in

We live in an entitlement society, from the bottom to the top

 

My dad has worked all his life, and now claims the state pension. Scandalously that is classed as "welfare". He also has a part time job, looks after his health (he has never had an operation) and generally is a good citizen. (supports his kids, etc).

There are people "in work" in know, who are terrible parents. Fat, smoke, drink, don't support their kids, etc,etc. How about the government force these people to shop at a government supermarket, and if they have too much unhealthy food, they get "called in for a chat".


If i'm unfortunate to have to sign on and get "grief", they'll get it back ten fold. Security or no security.

 

Where do they get these figures from? £1.2 billion? We are dealing with fraud here, so I am guessing these figures are pulled out of the air.
Do they relate to unemployment benefits or to welfare system abuse in general.
It is interesting to hear the opinions of people who actually deal with this thing in their working lives rather than speaking from what they read in the papers (which generally correlate with their political beliefs).
In my working experience I know of more than one case of people who are claiming working families tax credits whose children go to private school.
I am aware of another family claiming this benefit who have a second house overseas with a swimming pool.
It certainly doesn't make me want to contact my accountant with a view to maximising my tax liabilities.

 

I agree.
It is because we are in a parlous state that we need to look at the benefit system and a few other things as well.
However, I can't see much happening, because it ain't a vote winner.

On the other hand, if we had a political system like the one in America where the President can't sit more than twice, perhaps there would be a chance of of such a person being less concerned with getting elected and as such able to behave in a more statesman like manner in their second term?
Unlike the system here where the PM gets the sacked by his party without an election even being due, let alone held.

 

The only reason Labour are quiet at the moment is that they are being politically out maneuvered on the subject of benefits, much like Labour did to the Tories on the 50% tax rate.

Labour can't argue too loudly on the issue of benefits reforms because 'middle england' actually wants it to happen and they do need these votes as well. However they are seething inside.

To say there is no difference between the parties (?sp) is imho incorrect, you and I have agreed to disagree on this before.

Take the example of housing benefit. Tories want a cap. Makes absolute sense, why should somebody on benefit 'choose' to live in an expensive part of London that you and I can't afford?

Labour argued that it would uproot families, disrupt communities etc they went as far as dubbing it 'social cleansing'.

They then had to stfu as middle england was not interested in having their tax money go to fund somebody without a job living in a house that they themselves could only dream of living in.

So then Labour started whispering about a cap but special dispensation for London.

The bottom line is that imho there is a stark difference between Labour and Tories on the subject of benefits. Deep down Labour don't like these reforms because either they don't fit in with their perverse political ideology and/or they fear the loss of their voting fodder.

There is a left and there is a right imho, the political parties are not all the same.

What we agree on in a way is that I would like the Tories to be more right wing and you would like Labour to be more left wing

 

It is more, it doesn't include the £1.1bn in housing benefit fraud, or the £230m in Jobseekers Allowance fraud, or the £310m in Income Support fraud or the £460m in Pension Credit fraud. (2011/2012 figures from DWP). £3.4bn out of the £159.2bn welfare expenditure is down to fraud and error.

 

Well I would just like them to be more genuinely socialist and the party of the working man not the frigging benefit cheat LOL!

Left and right are just labels tbh, they just seem more interested in what's in it for them these days and I would like to see both Labour and the Tories get back to what they really deep down fundamemtally believe is right for the country rather than chipping away round the edge of the political centre with a slight lean to their roots when they think the other side and the electorate isn't looking!

 

You've got it in a nutshell. The thing is Labour has not really been the party of the modern working man for as long as I can remember.

A socialist agenda will by it's nature push equality and 'rights' above responsibilities and duty. This equality and rights will be applied to everybody regardless of whether they sit on their a88es and choose not to work, whether they break the law or whether they've just arrived in this country.

The socialist agenda demands for example that there should not be areas where people on benefits can't live.

So, for example, even though most hard working individuals can't afford to rent in Notting Hil,l we can't just have millionaires living there. The rest of us fools can pay through our taxes so that some unemployed people can live there to keep them pesky millionaires grounded.


The last Labour govt was a unique and potentially disparate and disastrous mix of part socialist part greedy capitalism. Almost two different parties pretending to be one, so that we got the worst of the two ideologies without really the benefit of either.

The socialist part continued to promote this idea of entitlement and mass immigration.

The capitalist part allowed rampant risk taking by the financial institutions and perhaps had a part to play in our country entering two major theatres of war in the space of ten years.

These two disparate parts of the previous Labour party rather than mixing to find a middle/moderate ground actually both went their own way. Almost ignoring each other as long as they could continue doing what they wanted.

The result imho was toxic.

 

So are they work shy pikeys or desperate to get work jobseekers?

Confused?

 

All most polar opposite to the Chinese model ?!

 

It's really quite simple. The 1.2B is the amount that's been proven in court that people claimed illegally, which is a very different story from what most of us are talking about here, ie. people claiming and making little or no real effort to find work, but still managing to convince the Benefits Agency that they are. It's anyone's guess how much more is lost to that second category than to the first.

 

Jeff, I disagree. I had to sign on last year to keep up my NI contributions and found the whole experience was quick , easy and I was treated with respect at all times. I also found the staff very helpful if I had any questions for them. Maybe they can see who is and who is not taking the **** out of the system.

Chip

 

Do you think it is sensible to pay people money to stay at home all day doing nothing when they are perfectly capable of working for a living? Don't you agree that is a gross waste of taxpayers' money? Can you answer that question?

How else do you think the government should deal with this problem? What would you do in such a case?

Or should that money just be thrown away for nothing?

Les

 

Bang on, if they take illegal drugs then bollocks to them, I have to be "clean" for my annual medical, I lose my job if I am positive for illegal substances.

Basically those who give you money can call the tune, if you want to take illegal drugs, drink booze, smoke **** etc dont expect anyone else to pay for it an tolerate paying for it if you do, welfare is to proved basics like food, warmth, shelter and clothing, if you take it you are relying on the goodwill of the rest of society, dont expect it forever and dont expect luxuries like alcohol and drugs.

I liek the noises that are being made about this, I had three bottles of Old Speckled Hen tonight, cost me £5 or so that I earnt, nobody else, me, I dont want to pay for that for someone else who doesnt work but I dont mind paying towards meals.

 

Just 2p worth

I work within the benefits system and see both side ppl that need it an ppl that are just taking coz they can. If someone is on JSA and live in a council house then this is paid for too plus the council tax so they dont "just" get £56/71 a wk they also pick up another say £100 plus per wk for hb/ctb. If they live in a private rent This figure can be more the double if not trippled in some cases.

I have to say I hear ppl saying "WHY ShOULD I HAVE TO WORK" or "WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO WORK FOR WHAT I GET FOR FREE ANYWAY"

Thats the prob ppl attitude towards wkin or having pride in doing so no matter what it is. I see alot of job snobbery, statements such as I wouldnt work in a supermareket or I cant wk in mcd's I wouldnt do cleaning......

I have seen both sides as I have also been unemployed some time ago an I have to say some of those things did run though my mind (used to have propa decent bank job on decent money and wanted something like) but one day I thought, Nar you cant have this attitude and I did just about anything and everything to put food on the table again and im glad I did as that pushed me to get the job ive now.

I dont think the goverment are harsh enough and knowing whats coming soon they arent messing about. Been on bens if you are able bodied shouldnt be an option or lifestyle choice its there to help ppl that need it in times of hardship. If your able to wk you should have the attitude of I will work doing anything and while doing that I will find something else I want to do.

When I was 16yr old and left school there was the way of thought that if you dont carry on your education you get a job simples and thats what ppl did if you didnt you was a waster simple.

Lifes not easy it shouldnt be handed on a plate as it is now its far to easy to claim as you have a right to claim.....BS !!!!

Get a job no matter what it is and do it weather you like it or not or it pays the same or just a little more than you bens, its called pride its call been a standing member of the public !

Rant over

Rich

 

Where's Tel?

 

In which case 1.2B is the bare minimum figure for this type of fraud - assuming detection and prosecution of this type of fraud is not 100%.

 

He's probably passed out and collapsed!

 

Essay time (just to **** off anyone with a tiny-screened iphad/smartphone )

I certainly believe the main issue of unemployment is more of a work ethic and capeability issue rather than the lack of jobs. So I applaud any fruitful attempt at trying to remove funding from the work-shy.

I have a lot of blame for a lot of areas, but one gripe I have is our education system, especially higher/further education making people of the more recent generations feel and believe that are someone they are not. Its a pretty big and blunt comedown to find out that after college/uni etc doing some fancy computing/engineering course resulting in the best job you can get is a shelf stacker (For me, the best offer was a shelf salesman ); Its a huge jump for someone who has spent their entire life in the education system to then suddenly be expected to do menial work for a living in the big wide world.

So in short I blame unis and colleges for churning out job snobs. Furthermore I blame them for taking on students on courses which are not capable of fulfilling or meeting job requirements in that particular sector. Its the uni/college's best interest to keep a student on a course, as they get more money from fees by dumbing it down (not me, but there were plenty of serial underachieving wasters on my courses that left with a degree ).

The links between the education system and employment is still far far too tenuous. Until its fully acknowledged they'll just keep churning out people with worthless qualifications thinking they're something special, but are useless to employers whom need to invest heavily to bring them up to scratch. Which is what the colleges/Unis should have done and failed.

I went for a period after 9/11 when I graduated where basically I found out my uni course was a waste of time. The proof being the inability to get a job in my chosen field, (the cracking foundations of UK industry due to migration to China may have contributed, but maybe that's just me trying to blame someone for my poor life-choice? ). Its pretty gutting to realise that ones aspirations and goals are unattainable.

For a while I took JS...and I stopped. Why? Because I felt dirty. I was pretty low and felt pretty worthless, but still had tiny amount of pride/self-esteem left that made me not want to go down that path.

That's when I took my first full-time job start working in HVAC for a bunch of cowboys as a grumpy installations/service tech. Getting more and more cynical and pissed off everyday with every Specsavers and Warners I grumpily carried out my work in (not to forget the Tampon factory ( FFS ) ). I'm not sure who I was pissed with most at the time. Me, my employer, my parents, my Uni, Government, China LOL. That loss of hopes and dreams sure caused alot of angst .

BUT I did work. And maybe that's the way I'm wired...I WANT to work. I worked since I was 16. Doing shut down maintenance shift work at the steel plant for a contractor during the summer holidays. Then a part time car valeter during college, moving on to part time alarm/immobiliser installs during Uni.

And that's the crux...how many college/uni leavers actually WORKED during their education? I believe it instils a ethic and routine that is needed to earn money to live. If you don't do that, you carry on as before....every child leaches off their parents, when the parents aren't around (or run out of money) you naturally leach of someone/something else...via Benefits. And that is I feel how we bred a lazy culture, they're basically just carrying on like they're still a child needing someone else to provide everything for them (I have a similar view for life-long housewives relying on husbands to provide the money ).

 

Well said and good point !

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1032785/ob...e-benefit-cuts

 

Forgetting how you feel about the politics of our present government,and I have to agree that its present leadership leaves a great deal to be desired, could you please therefore tell us how you would ensure that those who prefer to be fully supported by the taxpayer rather than do a day's work to earn a living can be made to change their ways!

Les

 

It gets better: What next? Benefit cuts to any claimant who has a Sky sports subscription or iPhone/smartphone contract?

 

Beggars cant be choosers ?