Scottish Independence
09 December 2012, 10:02 PM
#61
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thats what im waiting on lol
even then thats not what matters to me tbh, political squabbling over meaningless points lol.
i just want some real figures of pros vrs cons explained in laymans terms to show just how much better off we would be independant? id be happy to read that.
10 December 2012, 09:29 AM
#62
jef: i know bugger all about scotland being independent, but would be interested to know your view.
Aside from all the brave heart type stuff, is there a financial argument for it, other than you would get control of the oil and gas, is there any left and how long do they project it will last.
I don't know of any major wealth creating opportunities such as mineral wealth,etc ok there is a small amount of tourism, but doubt that could support a nation.
Aside from all the brave heart type stuff, is there a financial argument for it, other than you would get control of the oil and gas, is there any left and how long do they project it will last.
I don't know of any major wealth creating opportunities such as mineral wealth,etc ok there is a small amount of tourism, but doubt that could support a nation.
10 December 2012, 01:21 PM
#64
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This is what I've found so far on the subject. For Scotland to become independent, they would, it seems, have to "reapply" to join the EU according to president of the European Commission. I guess this would mean the loss of the Sterling as a currency and move to the Euro and that would mean it's monetary policies would be governed by the European Central Bank. Credit rating of Scotland would no longer share UK's AAA rating given that Scotland alone has no credit history making borrowing more expensive for an independent Scotland to service their debt. One credit agency points out that oil production has been forecasted to decline in the coming years meaning that their trade deficit would grow, currently Scotland has a bigger trade deficit with countries outside of the UK. As extraction of oil invariably gets more expensive to extract as supplies diminish, what other forms of revenue does Scotland have to pay for it's infrastructure, it's welfare, health service and whole host other public services?
I can only find rhetoric from those pro independence..
I can only find rhetoric from those pro independence..
10 December 2012, 01:42 PM
#67
mate we give 9.6% and get back 9.3% how is that england giving "us" money?
cmon now why does all the anti-independence people keep shouting the same stuff even tho a lot of it already has been proven wrong?
Scotland has a higher GDP than the rest of the uk how is that "us" getting handouts?
Scotland pays £1000 more per head than the rest of the uk.
i may be wrong on some of my points but ill happily hold my hand up if i am proven wrong on something.. but for some reason every anti-independence person seems to never change there mind even after they have been proven wrong?
I honestly believe its 50/50 between a yes and a no. in whos favour that will go come 2014 after all the muds been flung and many lies and truths have been told.
none of us will know until the vote day.
am done on this as ive said ill never convince anyone that's upto there self to try work out what way they want to vote and i only go round in circles
just read the questions and answers link i posted above if you want the positive sides of independence.
cmon now why does all the anti-independence people keep shouting the same stuff even tho a lot of it already has been proven wrong?
Scotland has a higher GDP than the rest of the uk how is that "us" getting handouts?
Scotland pays £1000 more per head than the rest of the uk.
i may be wrong on some of my points but ill happily hold my hand up if i am proven wrong on something.. but for some reason every anti-independence person seems to never change there mind even after they have been proven wrong?
I honestly believe its 50/50 between a yes and a no. in whos favour that will go come 2014 after all the muds been flung and many lies and truths have been told.
none of us will know until the vote day.
am done on this as ive said ill never convince anyone that's upto there self to try work out what way they want to vote and i only go round in circles
just read the questions and answers link i posted above if you want the positive sides of independence.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...ing.1350558326
Mind you, it could just be an element of the Scottish press trying to "muddy the waters to try and keep you scots as part of the uk."
And please could you point me towards your figures regarding Scottish GDP being higher then the rest of the UK? And if you have the time, a link to the article regarding Scots paying £1000 more per head than the rest of the UK.
Cheers.
10 December 2012, 02:53 PM
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Yes of course,as i said.
Had you not noticed that the Union as part of the UK is a very long established entity which has made the UK a much stronger and influential force in the world and is of course a fully democratic organisation?
You tell us how each part of the Union would fare in the world if it broke up!
Les
Had you not noticed that the Union as part of the UK is a very long established entity which has made the UK a much stronger and influential force in the world and is of course a fully democratic organisation?
You tell us how each part of the Union would fare in the world if it broke up!
Les
10 December 2012, 04:11 PM
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jef: i know bugger all about scotland being independent, but would be interested to know your view.
Aside from all the brave heart type stuff, is there a financial argument for it, other than you would get control of the oil and gas, is there any left and how long do they project it will last.
I don't know of any major wealth creating opportunities such as mineral wealth,etc ok there is a small amount of tourism, but doubt that could support a nation.
Aside from all the brave heart type stuff, is there a financial argument for it, other than you would get control of the oil and gas, is there any left and how long do they project it will last.
I don't know of any major wealth creating opportunities such as mineral wealth,etc ok there is a small amount of tourism, but doubt that could support a nation.
i do know many of my friends have went up to aberdeed and are doing extremley well through things likeh health and saftey advisors ect, get the there NIBOSH and off shore permits and they are doing very well. they constantly tell me to get uo there and take advantage - many involved in the oil industry learn there trade there then seem to pop of to Abu Dabi (sp) to earn even more.
but thats beside the point. i dont beleive the natural reserves will be enough to sustain us for ever, and i do see many other industries doing well, scotland isnt just run on oil. but the wealth it creates is generally for corperations, outside investors- yes they may creat jobs and some prospect but it wont be forever. i like the nature reserves/parks we have, and industries relating to them and could seem them being long term but hardly enough to prop up a country.
but again regardless i do not in anyway shape or form want A.Salmond or the sturgen being given total power over our nation- there deluded by patriotism - or should that be money/power. weve worked well as a united kingdom by and large for a very long time - why fck it up - and if it does go t*ts up - what then? well all the politicians can sleep soundly in there beds at night knowing there financial status and probably that of there offspring will be rosy. they too then have the chance to capitalise on any future income generating projects that the country has coming, you need investors, and money - know who has that available - to make even more money!
plus all ther idiotic laws and ideals - no thanks to independance for me
10 December 2012, 04:19 PM
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Yes of course,as i said.
Had you not noticed that the Union as part of the UK is a very long established entity which has made the UK a much stronger and influential force in the world and is of course a fully democratic organisation?
You tell us how each part of the Union would fare in the world if it broke up!
Les
Had you not noticed that the Union as part of the UK is a very long established entity which has made the UK a much stronger and influential force in the world and is of course a fully democratic organisation?
You tell us how each part of the Union would fare in the world if it broke up!
Les
On one hand you are advocating breaking our ties with the undemocratic and unrepresentative EU, yet the undemocratic (you call a party with 36% of the vote governing with a huge majority democratic????) and unresentative UK gets a thumbs up.
Why do you see these two entities so differently?
10 December 2012, 06:04 PM
#72
im not even taking into consideration the natural reserves in the north sea. not even sure what or how much we own.
i do know many of my friends have went up to aberdeed and are doing extremley well through things likeh health and saftey advisors ect, get the there NIBOSH and off shore permits and they are doing very well. they constantly tell me to get uo there and take advantage - many involved in the oil industry learn there trade there then seem to pop of to Abu Dabi (sp) to earn even more.
but thats beside the point. i dont beleive the natural reserves will be enough to sustain us for ever, and i do see many other industries doing well, scotland isnt just run on oil. but the wealth it creates is generally for corperations, outside investors- yes they may creat jobs and some prospect but it wont be forever. i like the nature reserves/parks we have, and industries relating to them and could seem them being long term but hardly enough to prop up a country.
but again regardless i do not in anyway shape or form want A.Salmond or the sturgen being given total power over our nation- there deluded by patriotism - or should that be money/power. weve worked well as a united kingdom by and large for a very long time - why fck it up - and if it does go t*ts up - what then? well all the politicians can sleep soundly in there beds at night knowing there financial status and probably that of there offspring will be rosy. they too then have the chance to capitalise on any future income generating projects that the country has coming, you need investors, and money - know who has that available - to make even more money!
plus all ther idiotic laws and ideals - no thanks to independance for me
i do know many of my friends have went up to aberdeed and are doing extremley well through things likeh health and saftey advisors ect, get the there NIBOSH and off shore permits and they are doing very well. they constantly tell me to get uo there and take advantage - many involved in the oil industry learn there trade there then seem to pop of to Abu Dabi (sp) to earn even more.
but thats beside the point. i dont beleive the natural reserves will be enough to sustain us for ever, and i do see many other industries doing well, scotland isnt just run on oil. but the wealth it creates is generally for corperations, outside investors- yes they may creat jobs and some prospect but it wont be forever. i like the nature reserves/parks we have, and industries relating to them and could seem them being long term but hardly enough to prop up a country.
but again regardless i do not in anyway shape or form want A.Salmond or the sturgen being given total power over our nation- there deluded by patriotism - or should that be money/power. weve worked well as a united kingdom by and large for a very long time - why fck it up - and if it does go t*ts up - what then? well all the politicians can sleep soundly in there beds at night knowing there financial status and probably that of there offspring will be rosy. they too then have the chance to capitalise on any future income generating projects that the country has coming, you need investors, and money - know who has that available - to make even more money!
plus all ther idiotic laws and ideals - no thanks to independance for me
then it's as i thought whiskey and tourism.
I'd say those massaging the figures stand the most to gain and are from the brave heart brigade, which is fair enough i can relate to some of the feelings of being hard done by, but it was a bloody long time ago, and not overly relevant in the modern political and economic environment, it's a bit like the black people wanting an apology for slavery when it was their own people that sold them.
I understand your misgivings about independence because if it does go **** up as you put it, i fear scotland if fooked and like you say your glorious leaders will just do what they did the last time, sell the lot of you down the swanny.
10 December 2012, 06:43 PM
#73
I can ABSOLUTELY understand the Scots not wanting to be ruled from Westinster.
Neither do I, and iI'm 200 miles south of Scotland, but when I see more and more being invested in, spent on, or given to, the South East and London, I feel sick.
I'd love some of the politicians to have to move up here, families and all, and live on what's available. Humberside: the most depressed area in the UK.
And The East Lothian question boiled my p*ss........to see the Scottish MP's voting for huge rises in student fees etc etc , while their own got it free...... if I could have pressed a button and killed the lot of them, I would have!
So yes, I can understand the Scots wanting independence.
Neither do I, and iI'm 200 miles south of Scotland, but when I see more and more being invested in, spent on, or given to, the South East and London, I feel sick.
I'd love some of the politicians to have to move up here, families and all, and live on what's available. Humberside: the most depressed area in the UK.
And The East Lothian question boiled my p*ss........to see the Scottish MP's voting for huge rises in student fees etc etc , while their own got it free...... if I could have pressed a button and killed the lot of them, I would have!
So yes, I can understand the Scots wanting independence.
Last edited by alcazar; 10 December 2012 at 06:44 PM.
10 December 2012, 08:00 PM
#74
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^^^ that doesnt make me want independance, its rife throughout the whole politcal system, abusing power/status to benefit themselves!! happens up her and down ther, its just doen there ther are more people to abuse the system.
i still rather stick together but reform the whole political process., financia penalties in place for those that fck up - not golden handshakes FFS! at election time any propoganda used to win seats and turns out to be false or very little effort put into it, or even proposing ideas that could never work should see that person asset stripped and custodial sentancing.
same as benefits, get rid of the "hangers on" bleeding the system and encourage the good people that want to do whats b est for there constituants - and be rewarded if they do so.
the whole political debacle is almost a comedysketch show, of egos, power trippers and in the background scroungers!!
i still rather stick together but reform the whole political process., financia penalties in place for those that fck up - not golden handshakes FFS! at election time any propoganda used to win seats and turns out to be false or very little effort put into it, or even proposing ideas that could never work should see that person asset stripped and custodial sentancing.
same as benefits, get rid of the "hangers on" bleeding the system and encourage the good people that want to do whats b est for there constituants - and be rewarded if they do so.
the whole political debacle is almost a comedysketch show, of egos, power trippers and in the background scroungers!!
10 December 2012, 08:58 PM
#76
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one question, is there indeed a susbsidised house of lords/commons bar? if so i cannot beleive this scandal hasnt been rubbished to the history books and all those who endulged felt the shame for such astonishing acts of greed and abuse of public money.
so many policies could be ammended to become more effective, rather than the constant replication of schemes that they "say" address issues but at the same time generate income through tax or indirect income. and thats why they are favoured over simple cheap effective remedies - then they hide behind the curtain of human rights or scared of offending people - rather than actual save real peoples lives and address issues that they just skip around.
10 December 2012, 11:14 PM
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how anyone can want to be ruled by another country instead of there own government boggles my mind lol
but hey lets just see what happens on vote day. yes vote all the way
hopefully haha
but hey lets just see what happens on vote day. yes vote all the way
hopefully haha
10 December 2012, 11:45 PM
#78
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you sound like your living in draconian times, or as if the english come up here, and rape and pilage the land while we cower powerlessly in the corner??
whats so bad under english governemnt just now now that makes you feel so violated and strongly against a geovernment who as an entirety we get to vote into power?
your mind seems quite easily boggled tbh mate, we retain some of our cultures and history as a nation and yet still can be part of a uninion, we accept there cultures and the accept ours - where does the problem lie - you seek ultimate power
11 December 2012, 11:19 AM
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get off my bridge! lol
why am i a troll because i believe in my country? that's not very nice of you :P
anyway a no vote is a vote against your own country in my eyes.
luckily we don't all think like each other :P
Lets just agree to disagree and on the day vote for what we think is best for Scotland
why am i a troll because i believe in my country? that's not very nice of you :P
anyway a no vote is a vote against your own country in my eyes.
luckily we don't all think like each other :P
Lets just agree to disagree and on the day vote for what we think is best for Scotland
11 December 2012, 11:48 AM
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Scottish independence makes no real sense unless you are looking at it from a purely historical and patriotic stance, which patently you are, even if you say you are not.
Geezer
11 December 2012, 01:17 PM
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You're not ruled by another country though. You are part of the UK, and you are ruled by the UK. It's not like Poland being ruled by the Soviret Union!
Scottish independence makes no real sense unless you are looking at it from a purely historical and patriotic stance, which patently you are, even if you say you are not.
Geezer
Scottish independence makes no real sense unless you are looking at it from a purely historical and patriotic stance, which patently you are, even if you say you are not.
Geezer
11 December 2012, 01:35 PM
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a vote for independence is not a vote for the snp.
there is some labour for independence as well as other party's that are wanting it.
a yes vote is for scotland, we can elect a new party after we get independence if that's what people want.
and 1 thing i need to ask.. if snp are soooo hated how come they have the majority of the scottish votes or did they just magically come into power? lol also isn't alex the longest serving first minister? that has to say good things about him. i know for sure i would not trust those other 2 female leaders of the other sides.. have you seen them in a question time? lol stuff that.
Thing is ive had mates and family say to me they don't vote, and don't follow the politics but they are 100% going to vote on this and vote yes.
we all know not a lot of the country bothers to vote. but if this is the case of lots of people making the effort to vote yes that never normally vote then i think it could go the way of a yes vote.
not to mention if all the 16 and 17 year olds are voting they will vote for independence as i think the younger you are the more pride you have in your country and i doubt most of them will follow the politics side of it.
i cant wait till the vote. its going to be crazy and hope to see tons of Saltires flying that day
there is some labour for independence as well as other party's that are wanting it.
a yes vote is for scotland, we can elect a new party after we get independence if that's what people want.
and 1 thing i need to ask.. if snp are soooo hated how come they have the majority of the scottish votes or did they just magically come into power? lol also isn't alex the longest serving first minister? that has to say good things about him. i know for sure i would not trust those other 2 female leaders of the other sides.. have you seen them in a question time? lol stuff that.
Thing is ive had mates and family say to me they don't vote, and don't follow the politics but they are 100% going to vote on this and vote yes.
we all know not a lot of the country bothers to vote. but if this is the case of lots of people making the effort to vote yes that never normally vote then i think it could go the way of a yes vote.
not to mention if all the 16 and 17 year olds are voting they will vote for independence as i think the younger you are the more pride you have in your country and i doubt most of them will follow the politics side of it.
i cant wait till the vote. its going to be crazy and hope to see tons of Saltires flying that day
11 December 2012, 02:14 PM
#85
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a vote for independence is not a vote for the snp.
there is some labour for independence as well as other party's that are wanting it.
a yes vote is for scotland, we can elect a new party after we get independence if that's what people want.
and 1 thing i need to ask.. if snp are soooo hated how come they have the majority of the scottish votes or did they just magically come into power? lol also isn't alex the longest serving first minister? that has to say good things about him. i know for sure i would not trust those other 2 female leaders of the other sides.. have you seen them in a question time? lol stuff that.
Thing is ive had mates and family say to me they don't vote, and don't follow the politics but they are 100% going to vote on this and vote yes.
we all know not a lot of the country bothers to vote. but if this is the case of lots of people making the effort to vote yes that never normally vote then i think it could go the way of a yes vote.
not to mention if all the 16 and 17 year olds are voting they will vote for independence as i think the younger you are the more pride you have in your country and i doubt most of them will follow the politics side of it.
i cant wait till the vote. its going to be crazy and hope to see tons of Saltires flying that day
there is some labour for independence as well as other party's that are wanting it.
a yes vote is for scotland, we can elect a new party after we get independence if that's what people want.
and 1 thing i need to ask.. if snp are soooo hated how come they have the majority of the scottish votes or did they just magically come into power? lol also isn't alex the longest serving first minister? that has to say good things about him. i know for sure i would not trust those other 2 female leaders of the other sides.. have you seen them in a question time? lol stuff that.
Thing is ive had mates and family say to me they don't vote, and don't follow the politics but they are 100% going to vote on this and vote yes.
we all know not a lot of the country bothers to vote. but if this is the case of lots of people making the effort to vote yes that never normally vote then i think it could go the way of a yes vote.
not to mention if all the 16 and 17 year olds are voting they will vote for independence as i think the younger you are the more pride you have in your country and i doubt most of them will follow the politics side of it.
i cant wait till the vote. its going to be crazy and hope to see tons of Saltires flying that day
11 December 2012, 02:24 PM
#86
Heres one. (and is related to this thread too)
News says ec president sent a letter saying scotland would need to re-apply if they get independence..
the ec president turns around and says that is incorrect and he infact has never sent a letter .
clearly that's a lie? or maybe the ec president is lieing ? lol
that's just many lies that have been told in mainstream media. or twisted to look negative.
News says ec president sent a letter saying scotland would need to re-apply if they get independence..
the ec president turns around and says that is incorrect and he infact has never sent a letter .
clearly that's a lie? or maybe the ec president is lieing ? lol
that's just many lies that have been told in mainstream media. or twisted to look negative.
And the Scottish parliament know better?
11 December 2012, 02:53 PM
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its always been stated by the scottish gov that we would need to re-negotiate our terms if we got a yes vote but that's expected just like i would think england may need to aswell as the uk is a union between scotland and england. if 1 half leaves there is no uk.
So many questions that still need some answers but that will come in time.
Scottish gov have requested talks now so we all just need to wait and see what comes from that if the EU accept the talks.
But as one of the people on stv said. nothing happening or said will matter until the last few months running up to the vote.
11 December 2012, 02:56 PM
#88
did you watch the EC presidents interview? i did. he clearly states he is not talking about Scotland lol but in the bbc when they replay parts of interview they cut him off so you don't see the full interview and take it like hes talking about scotland.
its always been stated by the scottish gov that we would need to re-negotiate our terms if we got a yes vote but that's expected just like i would think england may need to aswell as the uk is a union between scotland and england. if 1 half leaves there is no uk.
So many questions that still need some answers but that will come in time.
Scottish gov have requested talks now so we all just need to wait and see what comes from that if the EU accept the talks.
But as one of the people on stv said. nothing happening or said will matter until the last few months running up to the vote.
its always been stated by the scottish gov that we would need to re-negotiate our terms if we got a yes vote but that's expected just like i would think england may need to aswell as the uk is a union between scotland and england. if 1 half leaves there is no uk.
So many questions that still need some answers but that will come in time.
Scottish gov have requested talks now so we all just need to wait and see what comes from that if the EU accept the talks.
But as one of the people on stv said. nothing happening or said will matter until the last few months running up to the vote.
The PS Lewis of Scotland.
11 December 2012, 02:59 PM
#89
did you watch the EC presidents interview? i did. he clearly states he is not talking about Scotland lol but in the bbc when they replay parts of interview they cut him off so you don't see the full interview and take it like hes talking about scotland.
its always been stated by the scottish gov that we would need to re-negotiate our terms if we got a yes vote but that's expected just like i would think england may need to aswell as the uk is a union between scotland and england. if 1 half leaves there is no uk.
So many questions that still need some answers but that will come in time.
Scottish gov have requested talks now so we all just need to wait and see what comes from that if the EU accept the talks.
But as one of the people on stv said. nothing happening or said will matter until the last few months running up to the vote.
its always been stated by the scottish gov that we would need to re-negotiate our terms if we got a yes vote but that's expected just like i would think england may need to aswell as the uk is a union between scotland and england. if 1 half leaves there is no uk.
So many questions that still need some answers but that will come in time.
Scottish gov have requested talks now so we all just need to wait and see what comes from that if the EU accept the talks.
But as one of the people on stv said. nothing happening or said will matter until the last few months running up to the vote.
"What I said, and it is our doctrine and it is clear since 2004 in legal terms, if one part of a country - I am not referring now to any specific one - wants to become an independent state, of course as an independent state it has to apply to the European membership according to the rules - that is obvious."
Asked whether an independent country would have to renegotiate its terms, Mr Barroso said: "Yes.".
And
"Responding to Mr Barroso's intervention - described by Prime Minister David Cameron as "significant" - Scottish Deputy First minister Nicola Sturgeon said the SNP government did not agree that an independent Scotland would have to reapply for European Union membership.
She said early talks were now being sought with the European Commission to discuss the specific process of Scotland becoming independent. "
11 December 2012, 03:08 PM
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Asked whether an independent country would have to renegotiate its terms, Mr Barroso said: "Yes.".
And
-Scottish Deputy First minister Nicola Sturgeon said the SNP government did not agree that an independent Scotland would have to reapply for European Union membership
She said early talks were now being sought with the European Commission to discuss the specific process of Scotland becoming independent. "
And
-Scottish Deputy First minister Nicola Sturgeon said the SNP government did not agree that an independent Scotland would have to reapply for European Union membership
She said early talks were now being sought with the European Commission to discuss the specific process of Scotland becoming independent. "
2nd statement is wrong. she has said we will need to "renegotiate" and she has said she does not agree we would need to reapply from "outside" the eu. the word outside being the key point here.
we just need to wait and see what is said related to the matter towards scotland and not just everyone having a guess at what may or may not happen