toneh

iTrader: (1)

I agree mate , two heads and all that
But I really don't get Tony's attitude and his reluctance
Bit odd if you ask me

AlanPPP

iTrader: (2)

Ali try R tec if your near them mate. Heard nothing but good things about them and they seem to know everything about VAG engines. Sometimes spending all day mapping one car replacing components etc. There website has really good reviews/comments that are worth a read.

banzai2009

Think this will never be solved apart for yes you can do it yourself but for most who are no as clued up will send to the experts wether they charge over the top prices of not that's the way it is and how it will be untill Someone comes along and says **** you I'll charge less so lets forget what they charge and concentrate on our own cars gud luck tone with your own work mate and to all other mappers thanks for your help

Arch

iTrader: (59)

I must admit at 19 pages long this thread has certainly caused a debate.
I think the title is ill advised and insulting,certainly to the top level mappers.
As an aircraft engineer who has built a race Impreza pretty much single handed, all be it with a lot of advice, I could no doubt sit down and work out how to map both my road car and race car. Would I want to ? Quite simply NO! I could not get the results that can be achieved by an experienced mapper so why bother.

Here is a well used phrase, there is no substitute for experience.
As an example, Andy Forrest is one of the best known and one of a very small group of top level mappers in the Subaru community. He is an engineer to trade and has built and raced cars for years gaining experience as he went. Now would I, or the CAA, trust said highly experienced engineer to go out with a book in hand and fix a nice shiny Embraer 195 jet aircraft - absolutely NOT. Would said engineer be capable of doing many tasks on an aircraft, absolutely he could but why would he want to!

As has been said before a fair chunk of what you pay an experienced mapper is for his experience and knowledge not necessarily for the time involved. Like every consumer product the seller has to pitch the service at a level that makes it worthwhile selling and the buyer has to pay what he thinks the service is worth. Experience costs more and thats the reality. If you cant afford the best then take your chances and do it yourself or go to toneh and get him to do it cheaper.

CharlySkunkWeed

iTrader: (7)

^^^^^ i think he just meant the cost to tweak after a simple mod like decat where all that "experience" isnt necessarily required , so why pay for it ?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

I've started this thread through my personal and other members experiences its not somthing I've done to cause trouble or rock the boat
Or try to make out I'm some sort of fantastic mapper (I'm not)
I've sent John banks a pm to go part way to explain why mine and other members attitude and opinion is what it is
I'm not gonna post the same message here because it's just gonna result in , more questions and a name and shame campaign
Yes the title is harsh and unfortunately all mappers have been bundled under this title
But like Paul you have the chance to put your side across ( which I think we all agree he did very well )
But like its been said there are others that are keeping a low profile and for good reason
I don't for one Minit expect John to whole heartedly agree with my or others opinions but I would hope he can see some points made and why

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

I find your attitude an insult to professional mappers who do a conscientious job that many people are content to pay for.
Who are you (or I for that matter) to demand that they respond to your tirade about extortionate fees in a trumped up kangaroo court? It's a free market. If you don't like it then go somewhere else, or do it yourself.
In essence you have a bee in your bonnet about what you consider to be a reasonable charge for mapping services, in spite of being 'just' an amateur.
If you're right and mappers are ripping everybody off, surely they will just go out of business because we all want to pay less for stuff and we will all troop along to the mappers who charge less for offering services of identical quality.
Sorry but I don't see the queues at the doors of these budget mappers. In fact I don't even see the budget mappers. They must be doing so well that they're keeping a low profile along with the so-called rip off merchants.

At the end of the day, if enough people think that the likes of Paul, AndyF, JGM and so on are charging too much then the poor oppressed customers will just go elsewhere and consequently these 'extortionist' mappers will be forced to reduce their prices in order to stay in business.
However popular opinion seems to say that these mappers are worth their pound of flesh.
How do I know this?
Just go to any one of them and ask for a map session today and you'll find out how busy they are.

Why is it, do you think, that you have received so little response from top pro mappers to this thread? In fact why is it that you see so little input from these guys on scoobynet in general?
I'm sure you'll come up with an answer if you think about it for long enough, but I can assure you it's not because they're charging too much.

I'll let you in on another little gem too. Scoobynet is worse off for not having their input.

urban

iTrader: (1)

What are you expecting though - for free?

There is IP to a degree here too

stockcar

think the main issue here appear to be there must be an issue with one particular "mapper" that has caused toneh to start this???? maybe this is the "7 out of 20" reference.........

if thats the case it is very unfair to lump every other "pro mapper" that uses their skill, expertise and due diligence to produce a finished job

as for a small "tweak", and complaining of the costs, then we expect any map to be as finalised as possible (wether that means it takes 1hour or 10hours) - and each car is "custom" mapped to its best ability, hence the customer has to pay for it

however if your saying you have paid for a "custom" job and simply been fobbed off with a generic "one size fits all" map then again thats a totally different issue/problem

alyn

Shaun

Be afraid..... be very afraid.

Just ordered all the ECU Programming gear!!!

Having the experience of:

Being a bloody good programmer by profession many years ago, running this site, having to deal with the kind of things I have to deal with day in day out...... this ECU Programming should be a walk in the park by comparison!!!

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

The difference there is mechanical Tone, not ecu related
Im not against it, but there are specific forums for this sort of stuff, that just really deal with mapping, its like "why do we need a mapping forum on scoobynet"? there is no point when you have dedicated forums on that already, and its not like computer related or photography on here either, id say that 99% of people here have a camera that they use, and id say that 0.01% actually log onto their ecu and adjust settings, bit of a difference
Also its not a rip off, about 90% of the people who modify will probably only ever have one remap done in the time they own that car, average car ownership is 2-3 years, insurance will add to that so thats a factor for not modifying as there are alot of younger drivers on here who dont want to get hit with large premiums, so it becomes cost ineffective for so many people (and if you mess it up, pop).
Then you have your guy who wants his 120k imp turbo mapping, no s/h, wants 300+bhp, ends up with a dead car, blames it on the mapper (though most mappers will decline that sort of vehicle anyway), so blames it on OS software and goes and has a rant about it
There is so much more to it than just mapping the car, most people forget that

Tony

toneh

iTrader: (1)

No mate it's not one mapper , and it's not just me
If john would give his opinion I would appreciate it , like I said he won't agree in full , hd may not agree at all but I'm sure he can understand what's got my goat

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Wouldn't that be the point of a mapping section though, for people to gain information and for that 0.01% to grow.
Would I be a good example of what Toneh is saying? Once my long engine is built i can either...

A) Drop the engine in, run it with top mount and standard injectors, std turbo, std exhaust. Have a base map and run in, then change the aforementioned parts one by one and pay for a tweak after each part is fitted.
B) Leave the engine out and spend quite a while accumulating these parts, THEN fit engine and parts, base map, run in then go for full map.
C) Fit long engine, base map, learn about tweaking myself then add parts one by one tweaking as i go then get a professional map at the end.

Gigsy

Surely the point of this site is to gather knowledge on Subarus and for discussion about them? Seems to me that it is more valid to have a Subaru Mapping section than it is to have a Photography or Computer Related section?

If there's no point having a dedicated mapping section on SN then you could also argue, probably more strongly, that there is no point having a Photography section either. So I think you're argument falls flat somewhat.

Seems to me that there are a fair number of people who would like to have a mapping section. In all honesty, it's no great shakes for IM to add a new category so I don't see the harm or the problem with adding one.

If you don't approve, that's fine, you don't have to post there but I think it would be a good enhancement not just from the OS/DIY mappers perspective but also as a place for people who simply have questions about which mappers are recommended, or whether they need to have a remap done straight away for a particular mod for example.

"There is so much more to it than just mapping the car, most people forget that"... absolutely, and all the more reason to have a dedicated section to discuss why it's not a good idea to bolt an SC54 on a knackered old engine and turn it up to 11.


...just to add also, a mapping section (or perhaps Engine Management Section) could also be a place where people could find out about how to read logs etc and how to diagnose issues with CELs etc. Even if they're not planning on mapping their car themselves, that has to be knowledge that a plethora of SN members would find useful.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

I would personally have hoped that the room would also be used to gain knowledge from professional re-mappers about how systems work, what AFR targets are used and why etc. learning about things on your car can be fun, it certainly doesn't mean everyone would go out and try it themselves.

I have seen quoted time and time again in this and other topics, "The map just needs a small tweak to suit new exhaust / air filter / decat" but I have NEVER read anyone say what those small tweaks actually are.

Do they really know? Or do they think that just dropping the boost cut out to solve the over boost activation is enough to correctly adjust for the engines improved VE due to reduced pumping losses?

Such topics would be interesting for people I suspect.

Shaun

Stu,
Agreed. I like to know "why" as well as "how". I'm not in to being a "robot"..... you learn nothing of great benefit that way imo.

lordharding

iTrader: (1)

Well I would like to congratulate toneh for leading such a fantastic discussion
He has had a bit of abuse and is relatively a low poster and yet hasn't "lost it yet ' on such a emotive subject as low posters normally get grief off us oldies
He has defended well and shown technical knowledge too
(and I'm sure there is lots he is keeping back on for further discussion)
With 19 pages I can't remember any thread lasting as long (apart from jimmyinrugby ) and lots of people wanting to chip in as well with knowledge and discussion
I think there should be a separate section for mapping

Thanks also to Paul for defending his corner and opened our eyes to how expensive running a business is with equipment required and John banks for chipping in as he was one of the pioneers in the early days too

Great thread
And respect to toneh for starting such a though provoking thread .

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Very much so. Once built would i be dumb to just run in off-boost, surely not, i could be running rich/lean who knows?. Do i need a full map, if so that's another added cost.
Which ECU would be best suited? I'd have too book someone to visit me, that could mean my daily drive is sitting for x amount of time.

These are all questions i can see being answered in a "Tuning, Mapping and Dyno" section.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

I pointed out the reason for the photography section, as 99% of people on here will actually take pictures though you still dont see the point, and that is we have a gen tech section for mechanical's, so why do you need mechanicals in a mapping section? so that negates that part, also there are forums more focused on subaru/evo mapping where those who want to do it (very few tbh as we see by the numbers), so you go there to gain information, base maps, info on afr, wide band, narrow band, egt etc, i will pretty much put my money on the fact we will have about 5 threads in one year at the most in a mapping section, then maybe 1 more after that the next year.

One website cannot do everything, this is why there are lots of websites out there

Tony

PS, not everyone who wants to do mapping or learn about it will own a subaru, so why should they come to this site?

Gigsy

Absolutely... much better to get an answer to "why does my car need remapping after decatting the up pipe" rather than "does my car need remapping after decatting the up pipe" and is one of the reasons I'm working my way through this book amongst others...

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

There use to be a dyno section on scoobynet, it died along time ago, tuning is covered by gen tech so that leaves mapping, and very few will do much in there, hence my points about going to a more technically orientated site which is more specialised in that subject

Shaun

Tony,
There is nothing to lose and everything to gain by having another forum for this subject matter.

If it doesn't work it can be removed and no one has lost their life in the process.

Stop being a miserable drama queen!!

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

This applies to photography, any photography questions can be put in NSR. If i wanted to know which camera to get i'd use google, not this site. I've never even looked in photography, nor ICE.
I'd like Toneh to do a run through of his map, bit by bit to prove his theory, that would be an interesting start to a mapping section and hopefully will invite mappers along to show what he's doing right/wrong.

Gigsy

Yes, Tony, but not everyone that owns a camera is interested in doing anything more than taking a few holiday snaps and, like many other members with a camera, have never looked at the Photography section. However, I don't think it should be taken away simply because I'm not interested in it.

As has been pointed out previously in this thread, mechanicals and engine management are not the same thing so again, I think your argument is flawed.

This is a Subaru enthusiast forum at the end of the day, and whilst yes, it can't do everything, it is plenty capable of having a decent Subaru related Mapping/Engine Management section. As far as I'm concerned, the more info that is available on this site, the better it is for the site as a whole. So why try and push people away simply because they have a different interest to yours?

I accept that I'm never going to be able to change your mind on this and you have every right to your opinion but the very interest that this thread has generated has shown that there are plenty of people that are interested in Engine Management.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

Its not a bad book actually, but I suspect you would prefer one that a friend of mine in the states called Greg wrote. Its not too heavy, but covers interesting things and even touches on the INCA system IIRC. I will see if I can find it for you...

john banks

I'm not sure what was really that controversial about your PM toneh. As I replied I think there are always two sides to every story and a mapper can get a bad name for blowing up cars because he is bad or because cars blow up despite every precaution. Add that and 101 other customer service issues plus the general hassle and risk of running your own business and I don't think it is as easy as you claim it is. Doing some DIY mapping and then extrapolating that to criticism of those offering a far broader service with all the support and business issues is not really going to achieve much, and has been rinsed and repeated so many times on other forums.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

Found it, here you go.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Gigsy

I particularly like the title of the section "How to Hot Rod your big block Chevy"

Thanks and ordered!

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

Your welcome, I am sure you wont regret it, its a useful read and although using software tools that many wont recongnise in the UK, its all relevant, although that said, "SCT Advantage" for example is known in the UK as Dreamscience.