The great mapping rip off
#571
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Be afraid..... be very afraid.
Just ordered all the ECU Programming gear!!!
Having the experience of:
Being a bloody good programmer by profession many years ago, running this site, having to deal with the kind of things I have to deal with day in day out...... this ECU Programming should be a walk in the park by comparison!!!
Just ordered all the ECU Programming gear!!!
Having the experience of:
Being a bloody good programmer by profession many years ago, running this site, having to deal with the kind of things I have to deal with day in day out...... this ECU Programming should be a walk in the park by comparison!!!
#572
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I've started this thread through my personal and other members experiences its not somthing I've done to cause trouble or rock the boat
Or try to make out I'm some sort of fantastic mapper (I'm not)
I've sent John banks a pm to go part way to explain why mine and other members attitude and opinion is what it is
I'm not gonna post the same message here because it's just gonna result in , more questions and a name and shame campaign
Yes the title is harsh and unfortunately all mappers have been bundled under this title
But like Paul you have the chance to put your side across ( which I think we all agree he did very well )
But like its been said there are others that are keeping a low profile and for good reason
I don't for one Minit expect John to whole heartedly agree with my or others opinions but I would hope he can see some points made and why
Or try to make out I'm some sort of fantastic mapper (I'm not)
I've sent John banks a pm to go part way to explain why mine and other members attitude and opinion is what it is
I'm not gonna post the same message here because it's just gonna result in , more questions and a name and shame campaign
Yes the title is harsh and unfortunately all mappers have been bundled under this title
But like Paul you have the chance to put your side across ( which I think we all agree he did very well )
But like its been said there are others that are keeping a low profile and for good reason
I don't for one Minit expect John to whole heartedly agree with my or others opinions but I would hope he can see some points made and why
#573
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the 7/20 came form me chap, was the number of engines the last company that started offering realy cheap maps managed to blow up.
This was after the guy had played around with his own car, then said he wasn't gonna do any more, then mapped his mates, then started a company, and promtly blew up half the cars.
Also should note that some of the maps on the others that did survive were awefull.
#574
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I'm not sure what was really that controversial about your PM toneh. As I replied I think there are always two sides to every story and a mapper can get a bad name for blowing up cars because he is bad or because cars blow up despite every precaution. Add that and 101 other customer service issues plus the general hassle and risk of running your own business and I don't think it is as easy as you claim it is. Doing some DIY mapping and then extrapolating that to criticism of those offering a far broader service with all the support and business issues is not really going to achieve much, and has been rinsedThanks Carl! You're and repeated so many times on other forums.
Do you then think its ok to set up a company to map cars when you can't grasp o/s and not confidant enough to map your own ?
Do you also think its ok for a company to push you a product you don't want because there's more money and it'd easier for them
Like I said John I respect you , but I'm sure you can't agree with all the issues
and you are correct there are two sides to every story
But with the exception of Paul the other side doesn't want to tell there side
#575
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I would personally have hoped that the room would also be used to gain knowledge from professional re-mappers about how systems work, what AFR targets are used and why etc. learning about things on your car can be fun, it certainly doesn't mean everyone would go out and try it themselves.
I have seen quoted time and time again in this and other topics, "The map just needs a small tweak to suit new exhaust / air filter / decat" but I have NEVER read anyone say what those small tweaks actually are.
Do they really know? Or do they think that just dropping the boost cut out to solve the over boost activation is enough to correctly adjust for the engines improved VE due to reduced pumping losses?
Such topics would be interesting for people I suspect.
I have seen quoted time and time again in this and other topics, "The map just needs a small tweak to suit new exhaust / air filter / decat" but I have NEVER read anyone say what those small tweaks actually are.
Do they really know? Or do they think that just dropping the boost cut out to solve the over boost activation is enough to correctly adjust for the engines improved VE due to reduced pumping losses?
Such topics would be interesting for people I suspect.
#576
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So what sort of gear would you need to slightly tweak your map say if you fitted a new exhaust or a larger filter, I'm running a type R with simtek have simtek/act software and cable at the mo I'm guessing a wide band lambda would be a most but what else, before it starts yes it will be mapped on RR by professional mapper I'm thinking about when I'm adding changing smaller items in the future as we all know it's a never ending process, anything major I'd RR, any literature I should be reading as well, I'm a mechanic by trade.
#577
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As an example -
I am quite heavily into home HiFi and really enjoy some of the stuff on forums I frequent from audio engineers about building amps, speakers, enclosures and the like. Things like enclosure design using thiel small parameters have been pretty much standard knowledge to me since I was about 16 years old and into the car audio scene.
This accumulated knowledge of an industry I am interested in has not made me try and build my own system, nor has it stopped me recently spending £8000 with a smile on my professional Hifi system, but what my quest to further my knowledge did do, is allow me to make a much more informed decision about whether the guy I was talking to in the shop had a bloody clue what he was talking about before I allowed him to advise me on suitability of products for my requirements and relieve me of £8K.
Forewarned is forearmed, and it works in virtually every walk of life. A bull****ter can be spotted from a thousand paces with a couple of well formed questions directed straight to his face... ask 20 mappers why the vanos maps on the V10 MSS60 ECU seem to work inversely to every other map and see what they say... they must know, as there is no other way to get power from that engine. Or even ask them how many switch points and maps the cars ECU has... you will see all but the professional OE re-mappers stumble and start to feel lost, or launch into bull****, but the real pro's who work with it all day will remember it well as its the first mainstream Siemens ECU to have over 14000 different maps and switchpoints. The newest Bosch system now has a tad over 16000, and without ECAS and its exported a2l file, nobody is going to be decompiling it anytime soon. LOL.
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Why would any professional who has learned his trade and built up his knowledge base through experience and study give all his knowledge away free of charge and kill his industry. A mapping section would, in my opinion, not be frequented by the top level mappers for obvious reasons. It would then be left to the DIY guys posting about the amount of bhp they have wrung out of their cars 2 weeks before they detted themselves to death.
I doubt that many top mappers would frequent the section if it was just people bragging about how much BHP they'd made, but if (as I suspect it would more likely be) a place where people could share knowledge and help each other out, then they may well make an appearance - especially if it were discussing an interesting high level issue/topic for example.
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So what sort of gear would you need to slightly tweak your map say if you fitted a new exhaust or a larger filter, I'm running a type R with simtek have simtek/act software and cable at the mo I'm guessing a wide band lambda would be a most but what else, before it starts yes it will be mapped on RR by professional mapper I'm thinking about when I'm adding changing smaller items in the future as we all know it's a never ending process, anything major I'd RR, any literature I should be reading as well, I'm a mechanic by trade.
Am sure others will chime in but a wideband and a reliable method of checking boost would be top of my list.
#580
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toneh, there are quite a few professional mappers that prefer commercial tuning software to open source. Many appreciate the support and the polish that goes into a commercial product. Many struggle to tie together accurate and comprehensive map definitions for the variety of ECUs they will encounter. There are professional mappers around that are supreme at tuning an engine given the correct map definitions and table explanations, but they cannot identify maps from raw hex like some DIY tuners can. They leave companies like Ecutek and Cobb to do that for them. Division of labour, they stick to what they do best. I had tuned a few hundred cars commercially before I actually ever saw an unencrypted flash image along with an initial definition that I could learn the chip from. I daresay there are probably some excellent tuners that don't know hex at all, and it doesn't matter one jot to them.
If you push them to map open source when they don't want to then they have every valid reason to refuse. They aren't doing it to make more money, what some do is use open source and tell you they are using a commercial product. In some cases you would never and could never know from the ECU or the tune. On the Evo 7-9 for example, you can read and write commercial signatures and pull the wool over a customer's eyes. I don't know why they don't just say they're using open source, it doesn't matter, the quality of the work does.
If you push them to map open source when they don't want to then they have every valid reason to refuse. They aren't doing it to make more money, what some do is use open source and tell you they are using a commercial product. In some cases you would never and could never know from the ECU or the tune. On the Evo 7-9 for example, you can read and write commercial signatures and pull the wool over a customer's eyes. I don't know why they don't just say they're using open source, it doesn't matter, the quality of the work does.
Last edited by john banks; 03 August 2012 at 02:22 PM.
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toneh, there are quite a few professional mappers that prefer commercial tuning software to open source. Many appreciate the support and the polish that goes into a commercial product. Many struggle to tie together accurate and comprehensive map definitions for the variety of ECUs they will encounter. There are professional mappers around that are supreme at tuning an engine given the correct map definitions and table explanations, but they cannot identify maps from raw hex like some DIY tuners can. They leave companies like Ecutek and Cobb to do that for them. Division of labour, they stick to what they do best. I had tuned a few hundred cars commercially before I actually ever saw an unencrypted flash image along with an initial definition that I could learn the chip from. I daresay there are probably some excellent tuners that don't know hex at all, and it doesn't matter one jot to them.
If you push them to map open source when they don't want to then they have every valid reason to refuse. They aren't doing it to make more money, what some do is use open source and tell you they are using a commercial product. In some cases you would never and could never know from the ECU or the tune. On the Evo 7-9 for example, you can read and write commercial signatures and pull the wool over a customer's eyes. I don't know why they don't just say they're using open source, it doesn't matter, the quality of the work does.
If you push them to map open source when they don't want to then they have every valid reason to refuse. They aren't doing it to make more money, what some do is use open source and tell you they are using a commercial product. In some cases you would never and could never know from the ECU or the tune. On the Evo 7-9 for example, you can read and write commercial signatures and pull the wool over a customer's eyes. I don't know why they don't just say they're using open source, it doesn't matter, the quality of the work does.
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This would be exactly the same as if you, I, JGM, Pavlo, Stu, whoever mapped with OS compared with say EcuTek. We'd all still only be able to map to the best of our ability - the tool itself should not affect the quality of the work.
So yes, please do elaborate on how "this gets better".
PS am not putting myself in the same league as the pro mappers btw, merely saying I'd be able to map just as badly on OS and I could on EcuTek
Last edited by Gigsy; 03 August 2012 at 03:08 PM.
#585
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Not really, for example I can write source code on any number of IDEs and to be honest they all have their pluses and minuses as far as their functionality is concerned. However, irrespective of which tool I use, the quality of my code won't change.
This would be exactly the same as if you, I, JGM, Pavlo, Stu, whoever mapped with OS compared with say EcuTek. We'd all still only be able to map to the best of our ability - the tool itself should not affect the quality of the work.
This would be exactly the same as if you, I, JGM, Pavlo, Stu, whoever mapped with OS compared with say EcuTek. We'd all still only be able to map to the best of our ability - the tool itself should not affect the quality of the work.
With the pro solutions, you can at least expect the definitions to be correct, with accurate axis and scaling. This again justifies the costs to the calibrator as without accurate definitions and table access, his remap will never be any good.
The amount of OS definitions I see that are totally incorrect is very worrying, especially for those that simply will not notice they are dangerously adding more spark lead to an already very lean map, instead of adding more injector duration as labelled in the OS definition file.
In fact, some of my pro tools are just as bad come to think of it, but none of them are biased towards one vehicle or marque so the onus is absolutely on the calibrator to realise this if using a predefined definition on something like Swiftec, Winols, Race Evolution etc etc, where in the scoob world, you can quite understandably expect it to be accurate if your using a specialist product like ECUTEK who have dedicated themselves to offering calibrators a product to access the parts of the Subaru firmware they need without worrying it is not doing what it says on the tin. That is exactly why I sought to be a dealership for them years ago, but sadly failed due to location.
When they refused me I turned away from Scoobs totally as the accurate reverse engineering for them, back then, would have been too time consuming for us as they are quite a unique system compared to the German Bosch & Siemens products that we already understand very well and testing had taught us very quickly that open source for the scoobs, at least back then, was very inaccurate and you were never quite sure you were really in a maf transfer table and not a knock table for example, without extensive testing and analysis, and that is never any fun, nor particularly safe for the engine from a purely cumulative damage point of view..
The thing with reverse engineering is, its not usually done with applied science, its usually a lot of guesswork and when we have to decipher a huge ECU firmware with 10'000+ maps and switchpoints, the amount of suck it and see is huge until you come up with a suitable set of offsets to make the calibration changes required and are confident they are likely correct enough to start hitting some serious and productive dyno time to start actually looking for more power / economy / whatever.
I wrote a topic over on PF all about reverse engineering firmware once, most people would be surprised at the work involved and again, often forget or don't realise that all the research and development time, cost and effort requires a return by way of sales from the finished product which yes, we may program into cars in under an hour, but what about the 300hrs solid it took us to reverse engineer say, the OBD programming protocol for the Focus RS MKII for example. (We were first in the world to be able to read and write that vehicle by OBD and in conjunction with Alientech and Dimsport it took us all a LOT of time and effort with poxy port sniffers etc) and that's before all the time required to find 320 bhp from the standard fuel system once it did all work.
Anyway... I am waffling off topic somewhat, but my point is, mapping costs are not wholly about the finished product when you are doing the development and sending it out to resellers. That is why licensed products tend, on the face of it, to appear very expensive compared to open source, at least until the research and development costs are wholly recouped with some profit towards new projects, and that can take a long time in a tiny market such as ECU remapping.
Last edited by Evolution Stu; 03 August 2012 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Elaboration and fat finger error correction...
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Anyway... I am waffling off topic somewhat, but my point is, mapping costs are not wholly about the finished product when you are doing the development and sending it out to resellers. That is why licensed products tend, on the face of it, to appear very expensive compared to open source, at least until the research and development costs are wholly recouped with some profit towards new projects, and that can take a long time in a tiny market such as ECU remapping.
Equally a lot of Open Source stuff can provide 90% or more of the functionality which allows people who otherwise wouldn't have the budget to get involved with things (I'm not necessarily talking mapping here).
#587
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Stu made many of the points I was thinking of regarding complete and accurate definitions, and it isn't a small point when open source contributors such as myself had particular interest in good definitions for the models they were dealing with, but not some others which can and did produce a fragmented product.
There is further significance in terms of features in the ECU code itself which varies massively in its effectiveness between solutions, with open source not always being the winner. Both platforms I reverse engineered, one open source and once commercial, relied on custom ECU code (not just data) to increase boost and airflow/load limits, to control the boost better, to run speed density and realtime mapping with the engine running. These and other features allowed higher performance engines to be controlled better (if at all) or mapped quicker.
Good workmen sometimes blame bad tools, or rather they don't use poor ones.
There is further significance in terms of features in the ECU code itself which varies massively in its effectiveness between solutions, with open source not always being the winner. Both platforms I reverse engineered, one open source and once commercial, relied on custom ECU code (not just data) to increase boost and airflow/load limits, to control the boost better, to run speed density and realtime mapping with the engine running. These and other features allowed higher performance engines to be controlled better (if at all) or mapped quicker.
Good workmen sometimes blame bad tools, or rather they don't use poor ones.
#589
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right i had posted my elaboration but deleted by mistake
as regards o/s and commercial software
call me cynical but my guess is the main reason to use commercial software is the fact its more user friendly i,e your defs are correct and done for you ,
this will make a more attractive package to sell to potential customers ,mappers
now people go to ecutek approved mappers because its seen by some as a stamp of a quality mapper
yes you still have to do your tables (which takes experience and skill) but if all youve got to do is plug in and do your tables i would say this is the easy option
just because you use commercial software dont mean you are top notch (which some believe is the case and niether should you charge so (which some do)
in my deleted post i put what i had to do (but im just gonna get slagged so im leaving it out)
but if a mapper can look in a def file make changes, ect ,scale ,insert tables ,l/c ect means a lot more and says more about his skill level
and also you have to take more care because of bad defs , bugs , updates and can take nothing for granted and then still have to do the tables
if a mapper wants to use commercial software its his choice , and if anything the customer pays more for making his job easier
and using bad defs as a reason not to map o/s is a little bit of a get out
any mapper worth his salt will sort that
as regards o/s and commercial software
call me cynical but my guess is the main reason to use commercial software is the fact its more user friendly i,e your defs are correct and done for you ,
this will make a more attractive package to sell to potential customers ,mappers
now people go to ecutek approved mappers because its seen by some as a stamp of a quality mapper
yes you still have to do your tables (which takes experience and skill) but if all youve got to do is plug in and do your tables i would say this is the easy option
just because you use commercial software dont mean you are top notch (which some believe is the case and niether should you charge so (which some do)
in my deleted post i put what i had to do (but im just gonna get slagged so im leaving it out)
but if a mapper can look in a def file make changes, ect ,scale ,insert tables ,l/c ect means a lot more and says more about his skill level
and also you have to take more care because of bad defs , bugs , updates and can take nothing for granted and then still have to do the tables
if a mapper wants to use commercial software its his choice , and if anything the customer pays more for making his job easier
and using bad defs as a reason not to map o/s is a little bit of a get out
any mapper worth his salt will sort that
Last edited by toneh; 03 August 2012 at 06:17 PM.
#590
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the 7/20 came form me chap, was the number of engines the last company that started offering realy cheap maps managed to blow up.
This was after the guy had played around with his own car, then said he wasn't gonna do any more, then mapped his mates, then started a company, and promtly blew up half the cars.
Also should note that some of the maps on the others that did survive were awefull.
This was after the guy had played around with his own car, then said he wasn't gonna do any more, then mapped his mates, then started a company, and promtly blew up half the cars.
Also should note that some of the maps on the others that did survive were awefull.
#591
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now lets get this straight
lad does his car and then starts mapping and 7 out of 20 blow
when you pop round mate you can fill me in on this , because it seems a little far fetched to me
so the other 13 got a little worried and decided to have there cars checked
do you know this for fact or did somone tell you
lad does his car and then starts mapping and 7 out of 20 blow
when you pop round mate you can fill me in on this , because it seems a little far fetched to me
so the other 13 got a little worried and decided to have there cars checked
do you know this for fact or did somone tell you
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now lets get this straight
lad does his car and then starts mapping and 7 out of 20 blow
when you pop round mate you can fill me in on this , because it seems a little far fetched to me
so the other 13 got a little worried and decided to have there cars checked
do you know this for fact or did somone tell you
lad does his car and then starts mapping and 7 out of 20 blow
when you pop round mate you can fill me in on this , because it seems a little far fetched to me
so the other 13 got a little worried and decided to have there cars checked
do you know this for fact or did somone tell you
#593
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but heres one to try if diy blow ups are so common go on these sites
romraider
open ecu
nasioc mapping section
by all accounts they should be full of folks sitting in tears because they have blown there car up with diy maps and a mates and maybe a mate of a mates
post back all those you can find mate
oh i forgot they dont post that bit (before somone says it )
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but if a mapper can look in a def file make changes, ect ,scale ,insert tables ,l/c ect means a lot more and says more about his skill level
and also you have to take more care because of bad defs , bugs , updates and can take nothing for granted and then still have to do the tables
if a mapper wants to use commercial software its his choice , and if anything the customer pays more for making his job easier
and using bad defs as a reason not to map o/s is a little bit of a get out
any mapper worth his salt will sort that
and also you have to take more care because of bad defs , bugs , updates and can take nothing for granted and then still have to do the tables
if a mapper wants to use commercial software its his choice , and if anything the customer pays more for making his job easier
and using bad defs as a reason not to map o/s is a little bit of a get out
any mapper worth his salt will sort that
#595
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lol i meant tidgy mate
but heres one to try if diy blow ups are so common go on these sites
romraider
open ecu
nasioc mapping section
by all accounts they should be full of folks sitting in tears because they have blown there car up with diy maps and a mates and maybe a mate of a mates
post back all those you can find mate
oh i forgot they dont post that bit (before somone says it )
but heres one to try if diy blow ups are so common go on these sites
romraider
open ecu
nasioc mapping section
by all accounts they should be full of folks sitting in tears because they have blown there car up with diy maps and a mates and maybe a mate of a mates
post back all those you can find mate
oh i forgot they dont post that bit (before somone says it )
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I don't agree. Some commercial mappers see this as a lot of faffing about that they don't have time for, some don't have the skills for and some aren't interested in. Pattern recognition to find a few tables that are defined in a closely related ECU but not or incorrectly in yours, doesn't a reverse engineer make, and doesn't make someone capable of it in any way superior to a tuner that can't or won't do this. It is an irrelevant skill when it comes to actually tuning an engine well.
Saves faffing about , less time , this is of benefit to the mapper not the customer and don't have the skills
Like I said none of this benefits the customer and more often than not the cost still remains the same
And a knowledge of defs , patches , bugs , is not important to a lot of mappers but does show there's less chance he's just got his cheque book out And takes more interest in his chosen trade ?
And of course the final table adjustments is the final proof of the quality of his work
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So if we have this conversation in ten years, and you have progressed the ladder to be a very skilled and well known mapper, but I give you an ECU you cant properly decrypt yourself, your telling me you should now be publicised as a crap mapper?
What the hell has reverse engineering ECU's got to do with the skills needed for mapping? Engine building skills yes, no argument, they will always add to a mappers technical ability as will advanced diagnostic skills, but software coding? Why?
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some don't have the skills for and some aren't interested in. Pattern recognition to find a few tables that are defined in a closely related ECU but not or incorrectly in yours, doesn't a reverse engineer make, and doesn't make someone capable of it in any way superior to a tuner that can't or won't do this. It is an irrelevant skill when it comes to actually tuning an engine well.
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Really?
So if we have this conversation in ten years, and you have progressed the ladder to be a very skilled and well known mapper, but I give you an ECU you cant properly decrypt yourself, your telling me you should now be publicised as a crap mapper?
What the hell has reverse engineering ECU's got to do with the skills needed for mapping? Engine building skills yes, no argument, they will always add to a mappers technical ability as will advanced diagnostic skills, but software coding? Why?
So if we have this conversation in ten years, and you have progressed the ladder to be a very skilled and well known mapper, but I give you an ECU you cant properly decrypt yourself, your telling me you should now be publicised as a crap mapper?
What the hell has reverse engineering ECU's got to do with the skills needed for mapping? Engine building skills yes, no argument, they will always add to a mappers technical ability as will advanced diagnostic skills, but software coding? Why?
Like I said it also goes a long way to prove there's a better chance your dealing with someone with more of a passion for his trade rather than , a quick set up and lets get cashing in and map as many as we can as quick as we can
Last edited by toneh; 03 August 2012 at 09:17 PM.