jef

iTrader: (13)

in a perfect world eh mate - its saddening to veiw, must be fckin horrendous to be living in.

poor people

JTaylor

It's fück all to do with "drive" it's to do with the UNSC and more specifically the will of two of its permanent members, Russia and China.

jef

iTrader: (13)

it all represents the worlds drive imo.

a few major player countries have massive influence in things but dont have the reason or "drive" to intervene. quite possibly as theres little financial incentive?

but thats what i mean by human character flaws - its not restrictvie to an individual or a collective government group, but them and everything in between.

Martin2005

Hopefully now it has been confirmed that the Syrian government forces executed 30 children, we will stop sitting on our hands.

David Lock

So what do you suggest we do about it then?

dl

Martin2005

Recognize and arm the opposition.

Take out military and regime key assets

In short, actively support 'regime change'

Ultimately that is where this is heading anyway, so we should just get on with it

tony de wonderful

One might ask what is the point of the UN but to stop this sort of crime?

JTaylor

A) Who would the UNSC be arming? B) This is sectarian (even though this seems to be spectacularly overlooked by almost everybody), given this, what are the implications and repercussions in the region for supporting the (AQ backed) Sunni over the (Alawite) Shia? C) With that resolved and assuming the States, France and GB gained consensus for intervention amongst themselves, how would they go about convincing Russia and China to support (or abstain from) a resolution? D) Assuming Russia and China do veto (which they absolutely will) all the 'illegal war' and 'war criminal' wànkers will be out in force and they'll be bleating for the next decade or so. How's that to be dealt with? E) Do you want an Islamist or secular power at the helm in Syria? If it's the latter, hate what's happening and quietly hope that Assad holds on to power.

cster

Interesting line of thought.

Martin2005

On the first 4 points I accept the complexities of the issues involved.

btw if the UN fails to act on issues like this, then it has NO LEGITIMACY, and those that can, should get on with helping the innocent.

On point 'e' I want the Syrians to choose their government, Islamist or not. In the short term that may not be particularly palatable, but in the longer run democracy tends to promote moderate political movements.

cster

No offence mate, but apart from one exception, there don't seem to be too many democracies in this area.
I am not sure if democracy is considered one of the pillars of Islam.
Perhaps someone from Hamas will be along soon to tell me otherwise.

Martin2005

What's your point?

Leslie

Yes regime change is illegal of course. How do you personally feel in this case however? The war on Iraq caused the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi's.

Assad's thugs are deliberately murdering innocent people. Did you read about how they were slitting children's throats?

Regime change or not, there is a stage when the civilised world cannot in all honesty stand by and see this sort of murderous thuggery going on. Is it right to stand on the sidelines and do nothing to stop it?

Tell us what your solution is, are you saying to just do nothing? Is it the right thing to watch those poor people being done away with?

Les

JTaylor

The exact sentiment of the hawks in the Bush administration.

Agreed, and it's for those reasons (and I'm on record as such) that I supported the Tunisian, Egyptian and Libyan opposition, however, this is more complex. We've not looked at Iran yet.

dpb

Russkies may have ulterior motives but is true they'll be a lot more killed if we wade in

And what after that , Iran, All the gulf state dictators..?
I think mediation , don't supply the freedom fighters - except with aid/ refuge

And then take the government to court

JTaylor

Yes, did you read about the 15,000 plus Kurds that were gassed by Hussein?

No. If a coalition of the willing engaged in liberal intervention would you heckle them from the sidelines with catchy phrases like "illegal war"?

There isn't a solution. What I know to be a fact is that your policy has changed and you've failed to explain why.

cster

My point is a continuation of the E point made by JT

"Do you want an Islamist or secular power at the helm in Syria? If it's the latter, hate what's happening and quietly hope that Assad holds on to power."

I think that just giving people the vote and thinking everything will one day turn out OK is a bit naive and I suspect - so do you.
A democracy is only likely to work if the Religious types are confined to Weddings, Funerals and such like. Perhaps you would agree this does not generally seem to be the Islamic way?
It may well sound patronising to say this, but perhaps best way forward in Syria is education of the people in the first instance and then democracy.
Which of course brings us back to the point made by JT.

Martin2005

I disagree

Given what we have seen over the past 18 months, it is pretty clear that the people are voting with their feet against dictatorships all over the Middle East and Arab world.

It is precisely the lack of representation that gives the clerics the ears of the people. Let people decide for themselves. Quite quickly you will find people don't vote for god, they vote for what is best for themselves and their families.

JTaylor

I think we're on the same side here, so don't take this as a challenge, but it's worth considering that it's early days in North Africa. Tunisia have voted in an Islamist party, Libya wrote Sharia in to the newly formed constitution and are a million miles away from building a democratic infrastructure and the Egyptians seem be on the cusp of installing either The Muslim Brotherhood or a military autocrat from the old regime.

Cster makes a fair point about Hamas, too. That little lot made it in to power off the back of a 'democratic' vote. So, I'm with you in principle, but we really don't know if it'll pan out as we'd like. I'm also suspicious of the rebels' claims that they want democracy; I think what they really want is power and that one way to get that support from the likes of me and you is claim the uprising is in the name of democracy. Well, it's worth looking at the make-up of the opposition and asking whether democracy is key to their belief set. I'm not sure it is.

Martin2005

I think Hamas is a bad example, they are a reaction to a perceived Palestinian injustice. A hardline Israel has created an equally hardline reaction in Gaza.

JTaylor

We probably ought to avoid the Israel 'discussion', it always goes ****-up. Only time will tell what happens in North Africa. The people have had the opportunity to write their own futures and in our lifetime we'll be able to observe how that pans-out. What we already know is that the young, liberal and secular and, dare I say it, democratic revolutionaries are barely represented in the final round of voting in Egypt and I personally find that quite sad. I guess the hope is that the organisation that is voted in honours the rotation of power and that that leaves the door open to a more open society further down the line.

cster

I would agree - Hamas is indeed a bad example.
I think you will find (if you talk to Palestinians), that they were voted in to teach Fatah a lesson. This is not the official Guardian line however.

Shaid

So then fellow SN’ers.

So we think we are all civilised and better than them in the Middle East do we.

Take a look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUbKin-zrj4

And then this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sKseQ59Bs4

Now study this



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Maslow

So you still think you are better once faced with the challenges that the Middle Easterns face? Really? Seriously? You actually do don’t you? You’re in for a big shock then.

These dictators, why are people rising up against them now and why not before? Could it be that due to inflation, cost of living, unemployment (basically the same things that we are having trouble with at the moment and by the looks of things not getting any better!). Is our system soo much better or do we simply elect who our dictator is going to be? Corruption is rife over there as it is at home. The only difference being that our corruption is hidden behind closed doors. Hell, we even have our secret way to make people who know too much commit suicide. Just bare in mind when our basic necessities will not be met we will be no different to what is going on out there.

These death squads or whatever they call themselves are absolute *******. However lets not get on our high horse and claim we are any better as most will know that our media blatantly lied to us about Iraq and subsequently our government sent our troops to invade and force regime change in Iraq and in the process murdering tens of thousands of civilians then pissing on the dead by calling it collateral damage. Sadam may have killed lots of people but the Americans used some nasty stuff in all the wars.

Here’s some pics (warning nsfw and do not click if you are squeamish)

http://thewe.cc/weplanet/news/americ..._fallujah.html
http://www.aztlan.net/du_deformed_iraqi_babies.htm

Now you tell me can we honestly say the way our regime treats it’s enemies is any better? Now some might argue that our regime does not target children. Well I should bloody well hope not but killing their fathers is not any better.

The only way we should be involved is humanitarian aid and possible action via the UN only. Do not let this be another one for the Jihad guys to score points with the Americans. Saying that anyone notice any Jihad calls for the Syrian people? Me neither. Now if it was the west doing all this **** I can guarantee the Jihad calls will be in full swing. Isn’t that ****.


Now I noticed someone mentioned Iran. I would strongly advise that we do not **** with them and we just butt out of their business and let them get on with things. They pose no threat to us at all. In fact we should make friends out of them it would be in our favour.

They are not stupid either.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/05...oula-massacre/

tony de wonderful

Oh dear Shaid.

Shaid

Lol.... i know. Just fed up this world and it's regression.

cster

Yeah, I hear they do a lot of good work for charity - if by that you mean supplying arms to their various regional clients (Syria included).

Shaid

Oh seriously wake up and smell the coffee will you.

We supply arms all over the world and in a lot of unsavoury places. Does that mean we should be invaded and have our regime changed for us?

JTaylor

Babble.

cster

Well the people Syria can certainly "smell the coffee" as you put it.
Only some of them won't be waking up this morning.
I wonder how long it will be until the Iranians start blaming all of this on Israel.
Watch this space as they say.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

You missed out the "we shouldn't be in Afghanistan" arguments too (not just from Les btw)

So when we do step in, we get abuse for it and UK soldiers get killed. As for civilian casualties, load of hokey. The vast majority of civilians dying in Iraq are dying because one lot believes Cloister wears a red hat and the others believe it should be blue (Red Dwarf reference) and they are bombing each other.

The Vietnam parallel isn't a bad one either. The 'enemy' are not regular soldiers, they have no uniforms and they simply live their lives, occasionally nipping out of the village to place a bomb or shoot someone. You can't fight a war against that.

Saddam knew what to do, he tortured everyone. Look like stepping out of line and he'd have your toes cut off or leave you in a ditch, large groups got the old nerve gas. No worries about human rights there and it worked. We're trying to fight a war and get order back by saying 'please' to everyone and it doesn't work.

So how can Syria do this? Ask the ***** how they did it. Or the Russians how they managed it for so long, maybe even Spain in the 70's or closer to home Northern Ireland.

It's nothing new, sadly it is human nature and the UK/The West is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

5t.