To be honest, I'm sadly inclined to feel the same way. Then if people somehow end up dealing with each other, it truely is on their head.

The sad thing is, for all the trading that goes on here, most of it happens without any problems. Like most buying/selling generally speaking. Unfortunately, no matter what is in place or how much advice we try to give (and that given by other members) it won't absolutely put an end to people being scammed, and all of that completely falls down if people don't heed that advice. That isn't to say we don't care, I really do care when I see someone shafted, but there is only so much that can be done. Jeez 'even' ebay has it's problems and it's dedicated to buying and selling, and even they get it wrong when sales go bad.

I personally do favour locking down the whole marketplace. Have it members only and only members can post and even view the area, that would put and end to PM trading. It's not even completely to do with the actual cost, it's the paper trail we have in comparison to an unpaid member. Even that isn't fool proof, but it makes things more difficult/off putting for scammers and it hopefully provides us with some more (useful) information should things go wrong. Problem with this, is even though we genuinely would be doing it to help, the first thing to be cried by many members, would be it was all IB just trying to make more money.

Scammers forum....I have supported this idea in the past and to some extent I still do, but I can understand why it wasn't taken on board (I'll not go on too much in this post) but if people ignore the advice and iTrader in place, what is to say that section would even be of any use?

Like any place where buying/selling occurs, there is a risk of it all going wrong and nowhere seems to have a fool proof way of preventing it as it stands. Some people are just determined enough, they will find a way to shaft people no matter what. It's a sad situation, and I am sorry this is the way it is. I work in retail and on a daily basis, see that people think they can just take without any thought for the consequences.

Maybe locking down the marketplace could further help, sadly it won't end scamming completely. That would be in the hands of the owners though. But ultimately, the only real way to end this problem would be as Ali says, to just bin the whole lot. It's a bit too much like 'punish the majority for the actions of the minority' for me, but it's the only way scamming would never happen.

I wish I could think of a way to stop this from happening full stop, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be one as yet. And please don't think we don't care, just because we can't wave a wand and stop this happening.

 

Yes and I can see what you are saying, but to be honest if a user wants to get all butt hurt because there is a charge for advertising then let them... as long as the message as to why that is the case is clear for everyone to see (and I think it is quite honestly) then tough ****!

I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep over it and I am quite sure you don't

I am 100% in favour of this. I think the most important thing is that genuine Subaru enthusiasts have somewhere they can confdently buy and sell parts and cars and if locking it down means less overall activity, but leaves behind less scamming and only genuine activity then that is a very good thing.

I also agree totally on the paper trail point and I also think that the trading forums could operate a personal recommnedation system too. iTrader is good, but you need to trade before you can get any reputation.... and in order to do that someone needs to dip their toe in the water with an unrated seller/buyer.

How about somehow having a system where a first time buyer/seller on here can be vouched for by other sellers/buyers. Let's face it if you pay to use the trading forums and have parts to sell you should be a true enthusiast and as such you will probably be active in the Subaru community someshere so at least someone else on here should be able to vouch for you if not more than one.

Again as I mentioned in another post I think this is a good idea. If details of known scammers are posted up there (and I only mean details as in their SN username, location they operate in, modus operandi and some of the posts they made, no personal details) along with details of those who were victims of their scams (with their permission and then again only their SN username) then at least people can have a look there if they are suspicisous and see if anyone fits the bill as to their suspicions. They can also maybe contact the users who were victims and see if any of the details passed to them match up etc.

I know we could all say oh sod it let's just use Ebay, but the point of SN and forums like it is it is a community. It should be the case that if you as a SN member want to buy or sell something Scoob related then here should be your first port of call. The very fact it is a community should be its strong point, taking away some of the faceless anonymity of Ebay and ensuring you are dealing in the main with likeminded enthusiasts who will wnat to say ro get a fair price for their items.

In summary if it were me I would:

1) Lock down the trading forums to paying members only even for viewing
2) Create a scammers forum, a rogues gallery if you like, that is carefully regulated along the lines I mention above
3) Add a personal recommendation/vouch for system so new sellers/buyers can be vouched for by other members thereby gving people confidence in new subscribers trading for the first time.
4) Make it part of the terms of subscribing to the trading forums that anyone making a transacton MUST leave iTrader feedback
5) Post up even more bold guidelines as to how people should trade on here e.g. use PayPal where possible, be careful with new subscribers with no recommendations/history, collect if possible etc. etc. and point out if these guidelines aren't adhered to then the mods reserve the right to not get involved if things go bad.
6) Pst up guidelines as to what a user can do if things do go bad (like some of the links to the police sites you posted the other day Ali)

Finally use the above as a strength to sell the trading section on here to the Subaru community. Want to use the safest trading community on the web for Subaru parts and cars.... sign up here!!!

Just my thoughts, and while I know there will be people who don't like it and call IB for being money grabbing they will just have to deal with it won't they. If they don't like the fact that SN is attempting to make trrading a lot safer then you have to wonder why don't you?

Just my two cents worth!

 

I remember posting the thread about the transition to 'only paying members can sell' and the responses we got, which were exactly along the above lines.

Whether people like it or not though the vast majority of the problem transactions on here (certainly the scam type ones) involve non-paying members - it seems the only way of addressing that issue is making access to those forums a paid member priviliage.

BUT it will always be a case of buyer beware though: this would just mean that there is a greater chance of some recompense if things do go wrong!

Ns04

 

It's a tricky conundrum trying to balance out buyer protection/security with a coherent and straight forward sales forum. I have to agree with NS04 above 'caveat emptor', it is always buyer beware. As flawed and maligned as Paypal is it does offer protection so use it! Do what you can to protect yourself, trust no one. A million and one things can be done to try to stop scammers but ultimately some will still try it on and get away with it. It's just the nature of the beast unfortunately. Furthermore scamming is not just the preserve of chancing newbies, history sometimes shows that it's those that you consider trusted that scam you.

 

I can't be bothered to read the whole of this thread. In future I'm contemplating sending a lot of money to users who have made contact with me regarding a thread i started a few weeks ago. I don't see why exactly any seller on here doesn't just link their Ebay account into any thread. I ask to buy X, seller sets up an auction or buy it now and i can then read his feedback BEFORE i send any money. It then allows Negative feedback to add power to buyers, and through paypal adds security.
I signed up here 4 years ago, but have barely used it until recently, i have only 400 feedback(s) on Ebay but 100% of them good, so should show that I'm genuine. And as its 100%, i do what i can to keep it that way.
The other way is to have a "feedback" section, and each seller links to it in their signature. If then you are considering whether to buy you can see how well other Snet users have been treated by said seller.

 

Just an update,I have updated two of you by phone but the other two I haven't got your details...I went to the Police station in Rugby this morning,I have to write to Luke (Sonicvr6) via a signed for way to prove they/he has the letter stating the normal stuff then give him two more weeks then back to the cop shop,just before I left he dissapeared and came back stating that Luke has 9 OTHER complaints against him !! 9 !! WTH ?

 

If he's any brains, he'll sign for it using another name and say he never received it.

Some sort of holding account for new sellers is the only way to stop it. Buyers cash is held for 2 weeks to give plenty time to post the item. Once +feedback has been left, the cash is released into the sellers account.

Obviously Scoobynet would charge a fee. Once the seller has 20+ feedback, let him loose.

This would protect buyers plus Scoobynet will make some more cash in the process?

 

Would this not work. in order for you to sell items you have to verify your address. So lets say i wanted to start selling a few bits and bobs before doing this i would have to prove to scooby net that my name is allen poulter backed by a photo id and that my home address is confirmed by two letters in the last three months. This should make the scammers think hang on sn are gonna have all my details 1st. Postage of the item must include a tracking a number otherwise.you will get banned for 30days.

I know this is more agro for the staff and i know how hard it is to maintain a forum. But for a bit of extra time and paperwork sn members would have a bit more protection as sn staff will have sellers details so should they try anything funny the staff can give a photo id and confirmed address straight to the local authorities

 

People are forgetting:

We are NOT EBAY or a dedicated transactions website - we provide a forum that individuals may use to sort out their own transactions if they wish. We do not have time nor resources to check ID etc... or implement other labour intensive solutions. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. PERIOD!

The paying members only thing is a quick and dirty solution to the problem, as to become a paid member, you have to provide card details and, not surprisingly, experience indicates that paying members don't generate problems in the marketplace, certainly not "scam" type problems anyway. Even with this scenario you need to understand that if things go wrong, we will not be here to mediate for you. However, if the authorities approach us for information then at least we have something a bit more solid to go on than an IP address.

If people just following the following three steps 99% of all of the scams will end overnight.

1) DO NOT BUY ANYTHING OFF OF A NON-PAYING MEMBER.
2) NEVER PAY FOR ANYTHING VIA A PAYPAL GIFT
3) LEAVE FEEDBACK VIA THE ITRADER SYSTEM TO HELP THE COMMUNITY

Problems occur for the most part because people just aren't using their common sense when handing over money to strangers!

 

correct me if i was wrong sonicvr6 was a paid member

 

Your right,he certainly was...

 

paid member means nothing really, he was a member for 2 months ish so cost him about a fiver and scammed about £1500

 

Yes; proof that they still get through the net. BUT I can count on one hand the number of scammers that were paid members.

Several of them being related to the warren/gina bloke from the Isle of White (so beware of people selling stuff who are from there). The police are aware of that person(s) as they have contacted us over it....BUT I've not heard a peep about SonicVR6, so I assume the police have not been informed?

This is a hell of alot less than the number of scammers that were not paying to use this place. And even now, the majority of people being scammed are still via non-paying users.

 

This is for the large part why people are getting scammed.

 

10 cases against Sonvr6

 

i cant see anyway to make it fool proof, either pick it up or take a chance and risk losing the cash.

 

This is why I favour a total lockdown. It won't fully remove the risk of problems occuring, but as we all know as a general rule (there will always be exceptions) scamming doesn't tend to involve paying members for the reasons you have mentioned.

I know we have plenty of advice in place already, I just think this would further reduce the risk. When the marketplace was made members only, I thought this was going to be how it worked, only paid up members could trade, but as it stands, non paying members are free to buy and sell, all they can't do is actually start a thread. This in itself is a little confusing and to some extent doesn't fully do what we intended in my opinion. Lock it down, and make it only viewable to paid members, like I said earlier, that also prevents PM trading. And as harsh as it may be, tough if people complain. We are not doing this to make money, hell we don't get paid (a wage or commission), this is purely a suggestion to attempt to make the site safer and I would hope the majority of people would understand that, and equally that it saddens me that we even have to consider such action. I guess what people have to ask themselves, is what they would prefer, a safer site or a free for all and tough luck when it goes wrong.

I know full well we can't act in the way ebay does, we are a forum with a section for trading included, not a dedicated marketplace, I just think this little step would be a good one to take. Ultimately, yes, it is 'buyer beware' and all we can really do is pass on info to the authorities if requested, we can't absolutely make sure nobody ever has a problem or personally solve it, but I feel we can take an extra step to making this area safer in the first place. It's not a guarantee there will never be a problem again and people have to still rely on common sense, the advice in place and even gut feeling.

 

Sonicvr6 is one person.

Anyway I'm only aware of five...who else is there? And why haven't they informed the police?


The main advantage of paid membership is Police can get transaction details via paypal it gives evidence that links the use of this site to advertise with his bank accounts proving it is him and not some random person using his name.

If that person is then found to have defrauded a bank (fake account/CC etc) they are in a immensly deeper level of trouble. As typically people found defrauding the financial sector get sent down alot longer than those defrauding an individual.

 

When I left the cop shop this morning,he buggered off for a few mins and said there are 9 simalir cases against this bloke,me making 10

 

Ahh, sorry, I thought you meat people complaining on here and not to the plod.

I should hope ten individuals will be enough to get them to pull their finger out then. Time will tell I guess.

 

1) That would be one of a number of cases I can count on one hand - as we keep saying the vast majority of instances of scamming are by non-paid members. It's much more simple to set up a bogus e-mail and SN username than to get a bogus credit card etc...
2) If we are approached by the authorities, IB can hand over more than an IP address, which is next to useless.
3) Wouldn't have had the chance to conduct so many bogus transactions had people used the ITrader feedback system.

 

Seconded. Couldn't agree more. Maybe you guys need to discuss this with Stu etc. and see what gives. As I mentioned in my post (post 98) I think you have a chance to sell this as being the safest way to buy and sell Subaru parts/cars and turn it into a positive.

 

Why don't people use itrader? Just click the link next to the sellers name ffs!

TX.

 

I agree with you. Although we must not engender a false sense of security in the community.

People still need to know:

Transactions are on their heads and ultimately the onus is on them to protect themselves not defer to SN to do it. What we don't want is a situation where people throw caution to the wind thinking a system is air-tight when in reality it's just trying to hedge the odds in a member's favour. SN member or not, great prior feedback or not, most individuals on here are still strangers and people must be circumspect when parting with money. i.e. don't pay with a gift on paypal etc...

I suspect that most scammers that prey on forums are hardly master criminals, more likely opportunists, but it's worth remembering that criminals tool up to meet countermeasures - the harder we make it for them with system level interventions, the more sophisticated the scum may get and the danger is that they then get through to a populus that thinks that they're fully protected so behave in a way that makes them more vulnerable! This is why the common sense approach at a user level can be the most effective way of dealing with such low lifes. They think the forum is an easy target so use crude methods to get to a populus that knows they're not fully protected so are naturally more cautious.

Unfortunately, people tend to abandon common sense when they sniff what they think is a bargin!

Ns04

 

Because you still have to find the deal thread, copy and paste it etc.

TBH, as soon as someone receives their part, they're happy and the deal is done.

I regularly get PMs asking if I have this or that, I give a price, payment is made. There are no deal threads for that so I cant give feedback.

How many parts get sold on here every week through PMs, wanted ads, AA section, members section??
We never hear about all the positive transactions that take place, just the ones that have gone sour. Scamming on here is probably not as common as people might think

 

Well said, if you ignore this then don't come on here complaining after you get ripped off.

 

IMO you shouldn't deal, advertise or negociate via PM. Only use PM/email to do the final transaction (bank details, addresses phone numbers etc).

For example A/V forums expressly bans the use of PM for dicussion/advertising of goods when buying/selling: (see point 17) http://www.avforums.com/forums/view_trading_rules.htm

I haven't a clue how they enforce it though. But if people followed that example, then there would always be a deal thread to associate an iTrader rating to.

 

I use itrader for every trasaction, although i can understand its not the bast if you short on time.

 

Hi, could it be like eBay. Positive,neutral and negative feedback or would this be to complicated to set up.I would usually like to deal with scooby netters as they seem to know what they are on about!

 

You mean like this? https://www.scoobynet.com/news-and-a...-feedback.html