mamoon2

Food vouchers will not work. I know of shops that will take Milk Tokens (yes, baby milk vouchers given to low income families) as payment for **** and booze

JTaylor

Churchill, Roosevelt, Keynes; we were right up for it until Adolf got all carried away. Anyway, I was rather hoping somebody would've offered-up a solution, but there isn't one, is there? Certainly not one that's final. The gene pool within this particular social-group points one way.

Talk about things like a family unit, Sunday school, cubs, football and rugby clubs, solid primary school, decent secondary education, a sense of belonging and, frankly, it seems laughable. It strikes me that the foundations upon which this country was built have been ripped away - and it's spreading. I'm actually feeling deeply pessimistic. Then again, I have just watched 'young voters question time'. I despair.

Education is obviously key, but we'll never have social cohesion whilst everybody's pulling in a different direction. Quite how we expect people with deep, inherent, fundamental differences to sit in front of a teacher together, receive this one-size-fits-all, tepid, dishonest, PC education and then expect everyone to come out the other end as a rounded subject is beyond me. And to expect it to work is madness - as Orwell said 'There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.'

JTaylor

Well tell the authorities then.

vindaloo

Red pegs and a "module"?

Seriously:
Throwing away the cane or the Police batton doesn't seem to have worked. Neither does not engaging or fighting off the rioters from commercial properties/areas. Though I can understand why battles in suburban streets would be a worse option.

There's a lot of stressed out people about these days for a number of reasons. Lack of opportunity being one of them. Encouragement of good behaviour needs carrots, I agree, but there needs to be understood that the big stick will come down if one diverges too far into criminal behaviour.

J.

hodgy0_2

he was/is a genius

"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."

sublime and poetic in its simplicity and truth

JTaylor

Yes. I was introduced to Orwell when I was twelve, by Mr Borrows. When Mr Borrows walked in to the class we all stood up until we were invited to sit down. And then we read 1984 and Animal farm. Then we'd go to Mr Griffiths' history class where we were taught about the Russian revolution and we understood how Orwell's fiction related to historical fact. If somebody buggered about they were punished and they'd be terrified of telling their parents because they'd punish them, too. Anyway, I'm getting a bit sentimental.

Orwell was a socialist who became disillusioned with socialism. If you haven't read it already, I'd recommend Homage to Catalonia. Also, Christopher Hitchens has written a brilliant account called Orwell's Victory, if you're interested. Hitchens is another example of a recovering socialist. I was of the left but witnessed and continue to witness the deep flaws of cultural-Marxism. Two plus two makes four.

tony de wonderful

I've been posting a lot on the Guardian and Independent comments about these riots.

It was quite ugly what happened in Manchester and I think it has shaken everyones confidence and complacency in day to day normality.

To be honest I have kind of wrote everything I want to write, even though the more I think about the whole thing the less confident I am in what I initially concluded.

I am going to read Discipline and Punish by Micheal Foucault shortly.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

tdw

Thats the problem with a pendulum (Foucault).......it swings from left to right

Shaun

Suresh

Ordinarily a bit left wing for me , but his choice of adjectives used here to describe the UK's parasitic underclass is hilarious

andythejock01wrx

Interesting use of language given the previous mention of eugenics.

I guess we'l go down the road of youth schemes, more inner city investment, etc as before, but I'd have to say that the kids will still no doubt follow the parents' world view!

Seems there will always be an element of society that will take advantage where there is no effective law/law enforcement to stop them.

tony de wonderful

This is true and the left don't understand that.

JTaylor

I'm glad it wasn't lost on you, Andy.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

What amuses me is how the rioters, when questioned have some limited Guardianista style Rhetoric that they have picked up, like the "Claiming back our tax innit", waiting for one of them to say they

"Havent had a Steak in Society and no chips wiv it either"

"I is Disenfranchised and I want to be like Franchised and stuff"

andythejock01wrx

I like that - or to put another spin on it, they want the franchised stuff without paying for it!

JTaylor

Anyway, we've discussed the feckless underclass and no doubt all of us will have heard the counter-criticism of the political and financial class. I'm interested in the 90% of the population who're caught in the middle; me and you. How much, if any, responsibility should we take for what's happened? Should we be Janus-headed but ultimately compliant or demand change or change ourselves? My sympathy's with the working and middle classes - the majority - who seem conspicuously absent from the debate.

Leslie

I reckon that parents should be fully entitled to use corporal punishment for their children without fear of retribution for fair application when it is necessary. They should be able to use a painful smacking when the child deserves it.

I feel too that if parents were made responsible for paying for any damage caused by their children up to the age of majority, then the parents would be a lot more concerned in bringing up their children properly. If the children are allowed to run wild and become feral in their outlook, then as we see-the chances are non existent and matters will get worse of course.

It is a matter of encouraging responsibilty where is it obviously desperately needed.

Les

andythejock01wrx

Agreed.

However, I can't see any politician having the baws to bring back corporal punishment. I can see it now, solicitors issuing court papers on parents on behalf of poor little mites that have been smacked!

The Zohan

Vested interest???
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/riots-cry-h...161114889.html

tony de wonderful

It's interesting that in general this unrest manifest itself as the looting of retail business and misc acts of arson. It wasn't targeted at say government buildings or financial institutions.

tony de wonderful

I think I read somewhere about an African saying along these lines:

"If the village does not initiate the youths then the youths will come and burn down the village"

In a primitive society young men will make the transition from childhood to adulthood via an archetypal event - the initiation. It is often a trial of endurance, strength, discipline, like circumcision, or hunting something, or getting painful tatoos. It's at the pleasure of the those with power (the patriarchy) but it goes both ways because the initiates are then offered 'positions' in the tribe such as warrior etc. Jung writes a lot about the initiation as an important psychological event, it also has an economic importance too - the young men now have a 'position' a 'role', they have some prestige through what they do. The tribe isn't just some messy accretion of individuals, it has structure, elites, roles etc.

Now think about that anthropological truth, and you can see our society is a bit of a mess. A lot of young men seem to live in a vacuum where there are no authority figures who can offer said initiation into a 'position', or where the authority figures (men) have been emasculated by welfare or lefty ideology etc.

In that vacuum I think the culture of gangs can grow and the 'black gang' culture seems especially vital. It offers initiation and positions, impoverished as they may be but they are better than nothing.

It's a bit like The Lord of the Flies where in the absence of adults (authority) the kids have total freedom but are too immature to organise themselves in a constructive way....they just become feral essentially.

So the left are wrong when they say that simply 'jobs', being 'nice' to the hoodies, more welfare etc is the answer.

'Jobs' is not the same as 'positions'. In our society now the menial jobs are treated with no respect, you are a nobody, but in other societies and times even menial jobs had their position in the world, could have pride taken in them. Christendom did this and same too with oriental cultures.

Being 'nice' to hoodies spoils them, they need tough love. The primitive initiation is not easy, you can fail it.

Welfare offers a dismal 'position' of dependence.

The right are wrong when they stress individual responsibilities, since for children and young adults they are too immature for this. In the primitive tribe the childrens initiation and upbringing is ordered by the adult authority figures.

So in the absence of authority and initiation these young kids and adults have become monsters like the Lord of the Flies kids. I'm sure many of these young rioters are alpha males and in a primitive society would be its warriors etc.

Maybe our modern society and economy has no use for them?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Simple solution I reckon:

If you want benefits you must work 2-3 days per week doing community service for it; lets try and instill some community spirit, pride and self respect in people who would otherwise sit on their *** thinking everyone owes them a living because society has rendered them hard done by - it would also give the uneducated some hands on work experience and a reference, which might make them more employable!

If they don't comply, benefits withdrawn.

To be accompanied by:

5 year minimum sentence for anyone convicted of Robbery

Much stronger sentences for anti social behaviour

Penalties for parents who fail to ensure their kids go to school

Less red tape when it comes to discipline at school

AND FFS lets get shows off T.V that put people on a podium who live beyond the dreams of avarice for basically behaving like an obnoxious **** and expecting credit for it!

tony de wonderful

Here's another thing, what is consumerism?

Kids feel they need useless crap like new trainers or plasma TV's.

Is consumerism a technology of control? It offers solutions to an inadequacy it says you have if you don't own this or that shinny object or coloured bead.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

No room in the jails though ... 98000 spaces (is that all ffs) with prison population at 95000. Nuts

TX.

tony de wonderful

I'm not sure being an indentured servant of the state will instill self-respect.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Well, we know that being reliant on the state for handouts that aren't contingent on making any contribution to the community that fund said handouts isn't working! How much worse could it be?

If they start to feel like there is a viable alternative to sponging and feel the efficacy and satisfaction that we all derive from having done a day's work and being rewarded for it, it just might be conducive with encouraging them to contribute further.

What we can say for definite is that if you give people an easy option at the expense of others and no impetus to change their behaviour, you're stuck with the status quo.

Besides, we are all indentured servants of the state to some extent: we work not just for our own benefit, but for that of society; time for the slackers to get with the programme!

Their behaviour basically boils down to ignorance and a lack of aspiration born of an absence of respect for others and, most importantly, themselves. This has happened because WE have allowed our politicians to create a benefit state that accepts and even nutures these individuals and thus pepetuates ignorance, hostility and exlusion through successive generations rather than compelling the drop outs to reintergrate with society!

WE fund the lifestyles of these jokers - it's about time we asked for something in return!!

Work sets you free!

Ns04

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Tyler Durden: Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.

JTaylor

I enjoyed reading that; thought provoking.

lozgti1

'Bend the twig while it's young' I think was the phrase.

Everyone can debate this as much as they want.Quite simply these sort of people have no fear of authority.

I won't even park on double yellows even when no one is around!

JTaylor

"Give me the child until he is seven, and I will show you the man"

Leslie

ie. bring the child up to appreciate the need for discipline and the need for consideration of others, and the necessity to accept the need for a strong society.

Les