Israel thread
16 May 2011, 11:25 AM
#242
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I am as guilty as everyone else but we have let a thread about the crimes of Israel become a staging point for jtaylor and tony d to insult Islam. I am sure they know exactly what they are doing so perhaps its time so split some of this discussion to its own thread.
16 May 2011, 11:27 AM
#243
Yes, but funnily enough it does not surprise me that you are shocked (are you as equally shocked TDW seemed unsure who Tzipi Livni is – I bet you are, you seemed “shocked” most of the time)
I do not frame my existence and consciousness in global jihad, in them/us, in hate and war - nor do I trawl the anti Muslim websites, and immerse myself in Islam/Islamist, Judaism etc, any reasonably intelligent individual can see what my views are, and what I believe the root causes are
So it is quite natural to me that I do not know what Wahhabism is – please set a poll up and we can see if I am in the minority on SN
It is interesting isn’t it that America, the only country that lends Israel unconditional support, has 50% if its population believing the earth was made 4500 years ago, cavemen had dinosaurs as pets and the night sky is just a canopy of lights – 200 miles above the earths surface
– true enlightened thinking, but then they probably also know what Wahhabism is too – ask the Rev Terry Jones over in Florida, i’d bet he does, so you are in pretty good company
I do not frame my existence and consciousness in global jihad, in them/us, in hate and war - nor do I trawl the anti Muslim websites, and immerse myself in Islam/Islamist, Judaism etc, any reasonably intelligent individual can see what my views are, and what I believe the root causes are
So it is quite natural to me that I do not know what Wahhabism is – please set a poll up and we can see if I am in the minority on SN
It is interesting isn’t it that America, the only country that lends Israel unconditional support, has 50% if its population believing the earth was made 4500 years ago, cavemen had dinosaurs as pets and the night sky is just a canopy of lights – 200 miles above the earths surface
– true enlightened thinking, but then they probably also know what Wahhabism is too – ask the Rev Terry Jones over in Florida, i’d bet he does, so you are in pretty good company
Monkey tennis anyone?
16 May 2011, 11:36 AM
#245
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With Christianity the individual can deal direct with an accessible God who cares....God is listening etc. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor or what tribe or class you belong to; God deals with equanimity to anyone.
The implication is that the universe is ordered, predictable, comprehensible etc.
Contrast that with fatalistic religions etc or ones with many Gods. Here the universe is capricious and the individual at the mercy of fate.
One theory is that Christianity promoted the mindset for modern science. You wouldn't bother with science if you thought the natural world was capricious etc and incomprehensible.
Perhaps Christianity promoted democracy also since democracy requires the individual to see themselves as individuals who can make a difference with their vote and civil life.
It's worth nothing the prevalence of paranoid, conspiracy theories and thinking in the Islamic world. Maybe it is more receptive to this because Islam preaches fatalism....all is the will of God etc; the individual at the mercy of incomprehensible forces, helpless, just as the conspiracy theories say?
The implication is that the universe is ordered, predictable, comprehensible etc.
Contrast that with fatalistic religions etc or ones with many Gods. Here the universe is capricious and the individual at the mercy of fate.
One theory is that Christianity promoted the mindset for modern science. You wouldn't bother with science if you thought the natural world was capricious etc and incomprehensible.
Perhaps Christianity promoted democracy also since democracy requires the individual to see themselves as individuals who can make a difference with their vote and civil life.
It's worth nothing the prevalence of paranoid, conspiracy theories and thinking in the Islamic world. Maybe it is more receptive to this because Islam preaches fatalism....all is the will of God etc; the individual at the mercy of incomprehensible forces, helpless, just as the conspiracy theories say?
I actually see so many fallacies in that one post I simply do not know where to start.
16 May 2011, 11:41 AM
#246
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vituperation&l=1
It's one of those words I just *like* - it sounds like what it means.
16 May 2011, 12:44 PM
#249
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"The political and cultural environment of contemporary Saudi Arabia has been influenced by a religious movement that began in central Arabia in the mid-eighteenth century. This movement, commonly known as the Wahhabi movement, grew out of the scholarship and preaching of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, a scholar of Islamic jurisprudence who had studied in Mesopotamia and the Hijaz before returning to his native Najd to preach his message of Islamic reform."
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/loc/sa/wahhabi.htm
And now you can, too.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/loc/sa/wahhabi.htm
And now you can, too.
16 May 2011, 01:27 PM
#250
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"The political and cultural environment of contemporary Saudi Arabia has been influenced by a religious movement that began in central Arabia in the mid-eighteenth century. This movement, commonly known as the Wahhabi movement, grew out of the scholarship and preaching of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, a scholar of Islamic jurisprudence who had studied in Mesopotamia and the Hijaz before returning to his native Najd to preach his message of Islamic reform."
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/loc/sa/wahhabi.htm
And now you can, too.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/loc/sa/wahhabi.htm
And now you can, too.
"This association between the Al Saud and the Al ash Shaykh, as Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab and his descendants came to be known, effectively converted political loyalty into a religious obligation"
16 May 2011, 01:45 PM
#251
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Do you think Wahhabism is a good or a bad thing or are you indifferent owing to cultural relativism?
16 May 2011, 02:26 PM
#253
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I am as guilty as everyone else but we have let a thread about the crimes of Israel become a staging point for jtaylor and tony d to insult Islam. I am sure they know exactly what they are doing so perhaps its time so split some of this discussion to its own thread.
16 May 2011, 06:09 PM
#255
16 May 2011, 08:53 PM
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Been away from this thread or a few days (God I wish I had to time to waste on here like you lot!)
Anyway, can we get back to discussing (the evils of) Israel? Why do they lock up tens of thousands of innocents? Why do they murder innocent civilians in their sleep? Etc etc.
Anything else is just taking the thread off topic and should be RTM'd.
Asif
PS Any posting by TDW should contain an explanation of why the defence of Israel has got anything to do with him.
PPS He doesn't want to answer the question.
)Anyway, can we get back to discussing (the evils of) Israel? Why do they lock up tens of thousands of innocents? Why do they murder innocent civilians in their sleep? Etc etc.
Anything else is just taking the thread off topic and should be RTM'd.
Asif
PS Any posting by TDW should contain an explanation of why the defence of Israel has got anything to do with him.
PPS He doesn't want to answer the question.
16 May 2011, 09:12 PM
#257
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Been away from this thread or a few days (God I wish I had to time to waste on here like you lot!)
Anyway, can we get back to discussing (the evils of) Israel? Why do they lock up tens of thousands of innocents? Why do they murder innocent civilians in their sleep? Etc etc.
Anything else is just taking the thread off topic and should be RTM'd.
Asif
PS Any posting by TDW should contain an explanation of why the defence of Israel has got anything to do with him.
PPS He doesn't want to answer the question.
)Anyway, can we get back to discussing (the evils of) Israel? Why do they lock up tens of thousands of innocents? Why do they murder innocent civilians in their sleep? Etc etc.
Anything else is just taking the thread off topic and should be RTM'd.
Asif
PS Any posting by TDW should contain an explanation of why the defence of Israel has got anything to do with him.
PPS He doesn't want to answer the question.
I've said before that Israel and the West share a common enemy, in that regard I have solidarity with Israel, but I do want to see a just two state solution so the Palestinians can have a future.
Anyway I do find the lies spoken about Israel offensive to free and critical thinking, so call it a character flaw but I feel it necessary to counter them.
16 May 2011, 10:20 PM
#258
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It's not a serious discussion when you call something 'evil'.
I've said before that Israel and the West share a common enemy, in that regard I have solidarity with Israel, but I do want to see a just two state solution so the Palestinians can have a future.
Anyway I do find the lies spoken about Israel offensive to free and critical thinking, so call it a character flaw but I feel it necessary to counter them.
I've said before that Israel and the West share a common enemy, in that regard I have solidarity with Israel, but I do want to see a just two state solution so the Palestinians can have a future.
Anyway I do find the lies spoken about Israel offensive to free and critical thinking, so call it a character flaw but I feel it necessary to counter them.
Funny, I would say the whole World has an enemy, an enemy to peace, which is Israel. I would say therefore that my reasons for sticking up for the Palestinians and anyone who would speak against Israel, trumps yours, by a country mile.
I don't mind if you want to stick up for Israel, but to simply dismiss what other people say, as you do on every thread, doesn't do Israels case any favours. You come over as obsessive and defensive, slightly mad to be honest.
Your defence of Israel seems to be based upon the principle of, "We're ok, because they're much more evil than we are, so that makes us ok - OK??"
It's not a defence in my eyes.
16 May 2011, 10:36 PM
#259
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Plus what is 'evil' anyway? You'll just go around in a circle. Have you read Nietzsche?
Calling the Islamists a common enemy is not emotional language but a cold fact.
I don't mind if you want to stick up for Israel, but to simply dismiss what other people say, as you do on every thread, doesn't do Israels case any favours. You come over as obsessive and defensive, slightly mad to be honest.
Your defence of Israel seems to be based upon the principle of, "We're ok, because they're much more evil than we are, so that makes us ok - OK??"
It's not a defence in my eyes.
Your defence of Israel seems to be based upon the principle of, "We're ok, because they're much more evil than we are, so that makes us ok - OK??"
It's not a defence in my eyes.
16 May 2011, 10:48 PM
#260
16 May 2011, 11:03 PM
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Which is why it (calling something evil) has no place in a debate.
Plus what is 'evil' anyway? You'll just go around in a circle. Have you read Nietzsche?
Calling the Islamists a common enemy is not emotional language but a cold fact.
That is sophism.
If the best you can come up with is complaining that Israel is 'evil' then it's hardly surprising I don't take your arguments seriously.
Plus what is 'evil' anyway? You'll just go around in a circle. Have you read Nietzsche?
Calling the Islamists a common enemy is not emotional language but a cold fact.
That is sophism.
If the best you can come up with is complaining that Israel is 'evil' then it's hardly surprising I don't take your arguments seriously.
Come on Tony. You are hardly the David Dimbleby of the Debating World are you? You take yourself much too seriously.
What you are saying is that you really have no reply whatsoever, aren't you?
16 May 2011, 11:03 PM
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Give the guy his dues Tony, he did once say Israel was a "boil on the **** of the Arab world, which needed to be lanced" (I paraphrase very slightly). While certainly not offering much more in the way of substantial argument, it's a bit more creative than plain old "evil"
Er, sorry...who are you?
16 May 2011, 11:06 PM
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16 May 2011, 11:17 PM
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It is a shame that the supporters of Israel, who do have a case, resort to:
1) Changing the subject.
2) Insults.
3) Changing the subject.
4) Personal comments and attacks.
5) Changing the subject.
I declare this thread over as the point has been proven, once again.
16 May 2011, 11:19 PM
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It is a shame that no matter the subject, Tony always feels a need to resort to:
1) Changing the subject.
2) Insults.
3) Changing the subject.
4) Personal comments and attacks.
5) Changing the subject.
I declare this thread over as the point has been proven, once again.
1) Changing the subject.
2) Insults.
3) Changing the subject.
4) Personal comments and attacks.
5) Changing the subject.
I declare this thread over as the point has been proven, once again.
17 May 2011, 12:48 AM
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It's been kept good natured and polite, I don't think anything has been edited, deleted, or RTM'able.
Even Tony has been a bit more positive than usual, he's actually responded to a question or two (still falls short overall, but you can't expect miracles, eh?)
Israel is a legitimate discussion point, as its actions affect all of us, IMO.
This thread should remain open I think and we can come back to it whenever a newsworthy Israel item hits the news.
Asif
Even Tony has been a bit more positive than usual, he's actually responded to a question or two (still falls short overall, but you can't expect miracles, eh?)
Israel is a legitimate discussion point, as its actions affect all of us, IMO.
This thread should remain open I think and we can come back to it whenever a newsworthy Israel item hits the news.
Asif