Luan Pra bang

How ever many quotes form politicains I write here from the founders of Israel to current party leaders you still will not admit to Israels efforts to remove arabs from the area ? What are you thick or mental ?

Jews have equal rites in Iran and Turkey all of which is a pointless side track away form Israels crimes. It is typical of you and Jtaylor to start loseing an debat about Israel and turn it into a discussion of Islam.



You are really looking childish now.

JTaylor

Yep. Although I'd add, and you have to acknowledge it, we've propped some of them up because it's been to our advantage. Our leadership saw them as the best of a bad bunch. As I said, I just hope it goes well in NA - it decides the future. High stakes. Let's see what happens in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan (to an extent), Egypt, Syria, Lybia, Tunisia and The Yemen. let's see what decisions are made and by whom.

No, much of its leadership has. Anyway, the people are invold in deciding their own fate in a number of countries now, let's wait and see what decisions they make.

Liberalism in the classical sense rather than the British flavour. Actually, Islamism isn't complete bollocks. I think its ideas around ecology and brotherhood and diet and spirituality are credible, but it doesn't seem to compete well or sit well with Liberalism.

tony de wonderful

Because the quotes don't say that.

Please stop lying. A cursory google reveals that muslims and non-muslims are treated differently by Iranian law and Jews cannot hold government jobs/positions or be Army officers.

What I said stands. You won't recognise that Israel has diverse political opinions and interests.

Luan Pra bang

I have never claimed that there were not differeing opinions in Israel the dominant opinion is one of ethinic cleansing and zionism.

tony de wonderful

The quote you quoted does not contradict what I said about Jews in Iran.

Luan Pra bang

So no jews in the government then ?

JTaylor

Yep, get that. So let me ask you a question: Is it a good or bad thing that the West are on first name terms with Saudi Arabia? Should we cut off ties with the world's Sunni power. Risk the oil deals? And if we did, would that usher in a new benovolent, third way meritocracy? What you're saying is that because the West does business with Saudi Arabia we decide its system of governance. Well we don't. But should we? Or should we isolate them? What should we do, Hodgy? Are you saying that if the West stops doing business with countries in North Africa and the Middle East, that 'Islamism' or Militant and Political Islam as Luan prefers, will suddenly subside and there'll be free education and healthcare and liberty and a corruption free governance and a fair spread of wealth where men and women and non-Muslims are treated equally?

The 'west' are trying to 'help' Pakistan's millitancy issue by funding massive education systems, should it break off its ties with them? Who'd fix that? Would militant and political Islam suddenly subside?

I understand what you're saying, there's a good (IMO) film called Syriana that explores this, you may have seen it. I'm just not sure it's fair to pin Islamism's (M/P Islam's) shortcomings on the west - I think that's Islamist narrative being co-opted by the left. Why not pin Islamism's failings on Islamism (M/P Islam)?

tony de wonderful

Do your own research.

This is what Wiki says (yes I know it's not perfect but a good source until refuted).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_r...ty_of_religion

hodgy0_2

I am not blaming anything on the west per se, my point is that 90% of the problems you ascribe to Islam and Islamism are just the result if inequality, poverty and lack of education.

the other 10% are down to nutters on all sides, Islam does not have monopoly on them.

In fact, as I state in the IMF sex thread, people, are people at the end of the day – which is why it does not surprise that, according to the CIA, Osama had a healthy **** collection

I suspect that the social metrics of Israel indicate that it is an incredibly equal society; I also suspect the social metrics of the Arabs states to be incredibly unequal in terms of wealth at the top versus poverty at the bottom.

To me it really is that simple, any other analysis is just blinkered dogma and biblical nonsense (on both sides)

On a final point isn’t it ironic that TDW puts his career where is ideology lives and spends his day job siphoning of the "resource" wealth of the peoples of the ME and ships it back to us in the west.

tony de wonderful

Are you a Marxist then? Sounds like some sort of materialism?

I don't think we should ignore ideology/religion as historical drivers.

hodgy0_2

what does it matter what I am -- that is my analysis, if you don't agree with it fine, but don't try and pigeon hole me into a convenient box, so that if fits your simplistic black and white view of the world

tony de wonderful

Yes but it's better than old fashioned imperialism though?!

Maybe Islam does not empower the individual to think they can determine their own political fate? It's a question worth discussing.


It's not based on reason but superstition/belief. If in power it never needs to defend itself on reason....it cannot be criticized from the POV of reason = tyrany eventually.

To its acolytes it promises utopia. If people believe in utopia (by definition cannot happen) then they are outside of reason and cannot properly participate/engage in consensus politics/democracy.

JTaylor

And I'm saying that if inequality, poverty, and a lack of education exists and Islam/Islamism is the system of governance, blame Islam and Islamism, not the flipping West! What a cop out!

I disagree. I think that the west reasons its decisions and, judging by history alone, many of the ME's and NA leadership has made unreasonable decisions and I believe that's down to the former being seculer and the latter being predominantly theistic.

Doesn't surprise me either. His ideological belief in Qutbism didn't stop him knocking one out just as my belief in Liberal Democracy doesn't stop me "masturbating".

Ok, so why are you not behind them, then?

What's the "biblical nonsense" on the West's "side"?

No, it isn't. Why should he not make a couple of quid out of mending oil industry stuff in Lybia because he's a child of the Enlightenment?

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

...wanders off to hide the quote button....

hodgy0_2

Islam is not the system of governance, a corrupt elite are, it is about wealth and power, don't you understand anything I am saying

JTaylor

Yes, I understand all of what you're saying. Are you saying that Islam is not the driving force in North Africa and the Middle East?

hodgy0_2

yes I am saying that when the saudi shieks are banging seven bells out of a 10k a night hooker in a hotel room (full of whisky and coke) on the edgware road they are not thinking about Islam

hodgy0_2

in fact they are probably thinking thank fvck these cvnts drive subarus

tony de wonderful

The Sauds are intertwined with the Wahabbi. You can't ignore that.

hodgy0_2

i havn't a clue what you are talking about -- but a dare say someone will be along soon who is an expert on these matters

JTaylor

Animal Farm. It also seems an unlikely coincidence that Orwellian ideas cropped up the last time Asif and I discussed the House of Saud:

https://www.scoobynet.com/showpost.p...&postcount=256

So, I'm not keen on them, either. Like the pigs (and that's what the characters are in Animal Farm; apologies to anyone to whom this may cause offence), they've used a system of governance to their own ends. And that means, like Orwell's farm (Socialism/ Marxism/ Communism), as a system, Islam/Islamism allows for autocracy, totalitarianism, absolute monarchies, theocracies and despotism to win-out. That's what happens in the absence of secularism. If OSL despised the House of Saud for their collusion with America, why didn't he ask searching questions about the ideology that gave rise to the HOS's dominance? Surely if, in the west, we can remove an administration or party that doesn't serve the people, that's a better system? Why not adopt secularism, democracy, and demote Islam to a religion rather than a system of governance if it's flawed? My guess is because there was too much at stake for OSL. So it's the people that suffer, and I blame the ideology, and if that stems from the religion then I blame that, too. Not the west. All blaming the west does is perpetuate the very ideology/religion that sits at the root of the problem.

What I've written may offend people who have life stakes in Islam and/or Islamism - I don't mean to offend you personally, it's just how I see it as part of a cold analysis.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Shocked that anyone could spend this long discussing Islamism and the Middle-East, without knowing what Wahhabism is.

JTaylor

Good guess, and I hadn't read the 'whisky and coke' edit before my post above.

JTaylor

And Mark stole my response re. Wahhabism.

JTaylor

It is, I'd love to discuss it. Though we're talking about digging deep in to peoples' values and inheritence and I think and feel that that's what normally makes these conversations kick-off. I suppose I get pissed off when people knock my principles and beliefs. Although it is possible to discuss the subject. Perhaps some of the boards users who were born a Muslim would say if they are happy to discuss this.

It's the discussion about Islam as a collective and the Christian concept of the individual and how that backdrop has given birth to different systems of governance. Quite emotive - Kieran would need to give this post the thumbs up, I think.

hodgy0_2

Yes, but funnily enough it does not surprise me that you are shocked (are you as equally shocked TDW seemed unsure who Tzipi Livni is – I bet you are, you seemed “shocked” most of the time)

I do not frame my existence and consciousness in global jihad, in them/us, in hate and war - nor do I trawl the anti Muslim websites, and immerse myself in Islam/Islamist, Judaism etc, any reasonably intelligent individual can see what my views are, and what I believe the root causes are

So it is quite natural to me that I do not know what Wahhabism is – please set a poll up and we can see if I am in the minority on SN

It is interesting isn’t it that America, the only country that lends Israel unconditional support, has 50% if its population believing the earth was made 4500 years ago, cavemen had dinosaurs as pets and the night sky is just a canopy of lights – 200 miles above the earths surface

– true enlightened thinking, but then they probably also know what Wahhabism is too – ask the Rev Terry Jones over in Florida, i’d bet he does, so you are in pretty good company

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

I think it would be a fascinating discussion.

I'm also aware that it would require some serious moderation to keep the comments within the bounds of the forum rules. It's a highly emotive subject and past posting has shown that people will overstep the mark, attacking individuals rather than the argument and the potential for vituperation and bad feelings is huge.

However, you can just as easily discuss why Theocratic Governance is a bad idea (or not!) in general without having to mention specific religions.

Oh, and I'm still not convinced that Christianity (or any organised religion) promotes the individual over the group.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Whuch is exactly why the discussion would be starting form the usual flawed perspective of 'Islam is bad, Christianity is good'. Still should make for a great bunfight... I give it 5 pages before the lock

Oh and no I won't be participating as the subject has run its course on here IMO, some just seem to want to dredge it up over and over.

Luan Pra bang

It was pretty quick for this thread to turn from being about Israel to being about Islam i should remember to RTM tonys deliberate attempts to divert discussion
away from the crimes of Israel to discussion of islam.

tony de wonderful

With Christianity the individual can deal direct with an accessible God who cares....God is listening etc. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor or what tribe or class you belong to; God deals with equanimity to anyone.

The implication is that the universe is ordered, predictable, comprehensible etc.

Contrast that with fatalistic religions etc or ones with many Gods. Here the universe is capricious and the individual at the mercy of fate.

One theory is that Christianity promoted the mindset for modern science. You wouldn't bother with science if you thought the natural world was capricious etc and incomprehensible.

Perhaps Christianity promoted democracy also since democracy requires the individual to see themselves as individuals who can make a difference with their vote and civil life.

It's worth nothing the prevalence of paranoid, conspiracy theories and thinking in the Islamic world. Maybe it is more receptive to this because Islam preaches fatalism....all is the will of God etc; the individual at the mercy of incomprehensible forces, helpless, just as the conspiracy theories say?