Israel thread
17 May 2011, 01:34 AM
#272
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Oh and btw I think you left the word 'with' out of your post... very Freudian..
17 May 2011, 02:04 AM
#273
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And don't get on your high horse, complaining about others' 'conduct', like you usually do.
Have you actually made a single positive contribution to this thread? You're beginning to make Tony look clever!!!
17 May 2011, 08:10 AM
#274
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What is interesting and worth exploring is how Israel has squandered the moral capital it had after the war, in less than a generation!!!
Now it is pretty obvious that peoples with a cultural allegiance to Israel with support them, and likewise with the Arab/Palestinian cause
But what about the middle, people like me with no cultural allegiance to either side – which is overwhelmingly “anti” Israeli
Because it was not always thus – I was talking to my father in law about this the other day, – he was quite a famous musician in the 60’s, who lived and worked in the leftish intelligentsia circles of the day.
He said Israel had overwhelming support amongst his friends during the 50’s and 60’s - the plucky country fighting off aggression from the Arabs – but this support has evaporated - why
and TDW please don't insult me and embarrass yourself by simply putting it down to better PR -- we are not all stupid
Now it is pretty obvious that peoples with a cultural allegiance to Israel with support them, and likewise with the Arab/Palestinian cause
But what about the middle, people like me with no cultural allegiance to either side – which is overwhelmingly “anti” Israeli
Because it was not always thus – I was talking to my father in law about this the other day, – he was quite a famous musician in the 60’s, who lived and worked in the leftish intelligentsia circles of the day.
He said Israel had overwhelming support amongst his friends during the 50’s and 60’s - the plucky country fighting off aggression from the Arabs – but this support has evaporated - why
and TDW please don't insult me and embarrass yourself by simply putting it down to better PR -- we are not all stupid
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 17 May 2011 at 09:23 AM.
17 May 2011, 08:51 AM
#275
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The better PR thing makes me laugh, Israel has some of the largest media companies in the world as its supporters, not to mention groups like the friends of Israel who used go go round kids schools telling children how great Israel was and how evil arabs are. I made my feelings pretty clear at the time but I am sure their anti Islamic propaganda machine is still touring the country talking to children.
I think we can agree one a few basic facts on the history of Israel though.
1. Zionism started in the late 1800's The aim of Zionism was too remove the arabs from the area of current Israel and associated occupied territories.
2. The first steps in Zionism involved Jewish people useing economic force to remove arabs from the area.
3.After the war zionism had a big boost as the British took control of the area and were very friendly to the zionist cause.
4. After ww2 despite further terrorist attacks by Israeli 'heroes' on the native population and other terrorist attacks against innocent British civilians by those same Israeli 'heroes'
the UK ignores arab opposition to he creation of Israel and recognises it any way.
5. After the arabs nations fail to deafeat Israel in battle they then have to suffer the continued ethinic cleansing and occupation that still takes place today.
6 The world wakes up to the horrific human right abuses and cold blooded murder carried out by Israel in its attacks on innocent people in occupied territory. Their ability to kill as many women and children as enemy fighters becomes legendary.
7. People start to wonder why the Israelis are so proud of their ability to kill women and children
Please add people if I missed anything out, I did not include the attacks on the USS liberty or the Golan heights invasion as I figured they were side stories.
I think we can agree one a few basic facts on the history of Israel though.
1. Zionism started in the late 1800's The aim of Zionism was too remove the arabs from the area of current Israel and associated occupied territories.
2. The first steps in Zionism involved Jewish people useing economic force to remove arabs from the area.
3.After the war zionism had a big boost as the British took control of the area and were very friendly to the zionist cause.
4. After ww2 despite further terrorist attacks by Israeli 'heroes' on the native population and other terrorist attacks against innocent British civilians by those same Israeli 'heroes'
the UK ignores arab opposition to he creation of Israel and recognises it any way.
5. After the arabs nations fail to deafeat Israel in battle they then have to suffer the continued ethinic cleansing and occupation that still takes place today.
6 The world wakes up to the horrific human right abuses and cold blooded murder carried out by Israel in its attacks on innocent people in occupied territory. Their ability to kill as many women and children as enemy fighters becomes legendary.
7. People start to wonder why the Israelis are so proud of their ability to kill women and children
Please add people if I missed anything out, I did not include the attacks on the USS liberty or the Golan heights invasion as I figured they were side stories.
17 May 2011, 09:24 AM
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It's been kept good natured and polite, I don't think anything has been edited, deleted, or RTM'able.
Even Tony has been a bit more positive than usual, he's actually responded to a question or two (still falls short overall, but you can't expect miracles, eh?)
Israel is a legitimate discussion point, as its actions affect all of us, IMO.
This thread should remain open I think and we can come back to it whenever a newsworthy Israel item hits the news.
Asif
Even Tony has been a bit more positive than usual, he's actually responded to a question or two (still falls short overall, but you can't expect miracles, eh?)
Israel is a legitimate discussion point, as its actions affect all of us, IMO.
This thread should remain open I think and we can come back to it whenever a newsworthy Israel item hits the news.
Asif
Plus now you have started shouting propaganda even though it's been refuted elsewhere in the thread....as if telling a lie over and over will work...defeat the opposition with a megaphone.
17 May 2011, 10:01 AM
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What is interesting and worth exploring is how Israel has squandered the moral capital it had after the war, in less than a generation!!!
Now it is pretty obvious that peoples with a cultural allegiance to Israel with support them, and likewise with the Arab/Palestinian cause
But what about the middle, people like me with no cultural allegiance to either side – which is overwhelm “anti” Israeli
Because it was not always thus – I was talking to my father in law about this the other day, – he was quite a famous musician in the 60’s, who lived and worked in the leftish intelligentsia circles of the day.
He said Israel had overwhelming support amongst his friends during the 50’s and 60’s - the plucky country fighting off aggression from the Arabs – but this support has evaporated - why
and TDW please don't insult me and embarrass yourself by simply putting it down to better PR -- we are not all stupid
Now it is pretty obvious that peoples with a cultural allegiance to Israel with support them, and likewise with the Arab/Palestinian cause
But what about the middle, people like me with no cultural allegiance to either side – which is overwhelm “anti” Israeli
Because it was not always thus – I was talking to my father in law about this the other day, – he was quite a famous musician in the 60’s, who lived and worked in the leftish intelligentsia circles of the day.
He said Israel had overwhelming support amongst his friends during the 50’s and 60’s - the plucky country fighting off aggression from the Arabs – but this support has evaporated - why
and TDW please don't insult me and embarrass yourself by simply putting it down to better PR -- we are not all stupid
Last edited by JTaylor; 17 May 2011 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Spelling.
17 May 2011, 10:05 AM
#280
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It's fashionable amongst Limousine Liberals - mung beans, kaftans and anti-Israeli rhetoric borrowed from Islamists. Normally wave banners like 'Hussein not Haliburton', 'liberals against liberalism' and 'Passivists for Iranian Nuclear Armament' and find people with exotic names 'inspiring'. Whilst not bothering with the 'details' like, for example, the religious and political history of the region's super powers, they do like to mention their leftist credentials. Their logic reads: The hawks are bad, therefor anyone the hawks support are bad and their opponents are good. Man.
17 May 2011, 12:35 PM
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And you're wrong to say that. If you're a liberal, why not support liberalism?
And yet you support the latter - liberals against liberalism. What's proved good for the people, Hodgy? Hamas? Hezbollah? Islamic Jihad? Saddam Hussein? What do the "social metrics" say?
So where does this inequality, poverty and a lack of education come from, and remember you're not blaming the west, "per se"?
You "believe in" secularism. So why support theists over secularists? If you're looking at this through a pacifist's lense, remember that involves 'not interfering' i.e being passive, regards any acts of despotism and dictatorship and theocratic brutallity anywhere in the world. You demote the UN back to the League of Nations and you keep liberalism for the west. If you're going to be a pacifist, though, guard against perpetuating Islamist narrative. And if you're going to be a liberal, try supporting liberals.
You "believe in" secularism. So why support theists over secularists? If you're looking at this through a pacifist's lense, remember that involves 'not interfering' i.e being passive, regards any acts of despotism and dictatorship and theocratic brutallity anywhere in the world. You demote the UN back to the League of Nations and you keep liberalism for the west. If you're going to be a pacifist, though, guard against perpetuating Islamist narrative. And if you're going to be a liberal, try supporting liberals.
Last edited by JTaylor; 17 May 2011 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Typo.
17 May 2011, 02:35 PM
#282
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/d...EIgz8tHZuRg%3D
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/d...CRkfZRhmvyE%3D
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/d...CRkfZRhmvyE%3D
Last edited by banny sti; 17 May 2011 at 02:37 PM.
17 May 2011, 02:58 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13109092
http://www.undpi.org/Palestine-and-G...errorists.html
So, a family of five including two children and a pro-Palestinian aid worker. Your go.
17 May 2011, 03:03 PM
#285
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show me a post where I support theists -- in the context of the Israeli/Pastinian conflict I see it as a simple right of people to return to thier ancestoral homeland
I have posted in support of secularism on every thread that has general religion as it's theme
in the context of any wider issues -- simple poverty, lack of education
the fact that you see it all through the prism of religion/bilical nonesense is something I can do nothing about - and indeed says more about you than anyone else imo
17 May 2011, 03:34 PM
#286
The better PR thing makes me laugh, Israel has some of the largest media companies in the world as its supporters, not to mention groups like the friends of Israel who used go go round kids schools telling children how great Israel was and how evil arabs are. I made my feelings pretty clear at the time but I am sure their anti Islamic propaganda machine is still touring the country talking to children.
I think we can agree one a few basic facts on the history of Israel though.
1. Zionism started in the late 1800's The aim of Zionism was too remove the arabs from the area of current Israel and associated occupied territories.
2. The first steps in Zionism involved Jewish people useing economic force to remove arabs from the area.
3.After the war zionism had a big boost as the British took control of the area and were very friendly to the zionist cause.
4. After ww2 despite further terrorist attacks by Israeli 'heroes' on the native population and other terrorist attacks against innocent British civilians by those same Israeli 'heroes'
the UK ignores arab opposition to he creation of Israel and recognises it any way.
5. After the arabs nations fail to deafeat Israel in battle they then have to suffer the continued ethinic cleansing and occupation that still takes place today.
6 The world wakes up to the horrific human right abuses and cold blooded murder carried out by Israel in its attacks on innocent people in occupied territory. Their ability to kill as many women and children as enemy fighters becomes legendary.
7. People start to wonder why the Israelis are so proud of their ability to kill women and children
Please add people if I missed anything out, I did not include the attacks on the USS liberty or the Golan heights invasion as I figured they were side stories.
I think we can agree one a few basic facts on the history of Israel though.
1. Zionism started in the late 1800's The aim of Zionism was too remove the arabs from the area of current Israel and associated occupied territories.
2. The first steps in Zionism involved Jewish people useing economic force to remove arabs from the area.
3.After the war zionism had a big boost as the British took control of the area and were very friendly to the zionist cause.
4. After ww2 despite further terrorist attacks by Israeli 'heroes' on the native population and other terrorist attacks against innocent British civilians by those same Israeli 'heroes'
the UK ignores arab opposition to he creation of Israel and recognises it any way.
5. After the arabs nations fail to deafeat Israel in battle they then have to suffer the continued ethinic cleansing and occupation that still takes place today.
6 The world wakes up to the horrific human right abuses and cold blooded murder carried out by Israel in its attacks on innocent people in occupied territory. Their ability to kill as many women and children as enemy fighters becomes legendary.
7. People start to wonder why the Israelis are so proud of their ability to kill women and children
Please add people if I missed anything out, I did not include the attacks on the USS liberty or the Golan heights invasion as I figured they were side stories.
Perhaps you should start another thread about how your views are of use to the Palestinian cause.
Or is it just about you?
17 May 2011, 03:51 PM
#287
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Jtaylor well done for comparing random acts of violence by extremeists to the systematic abuse and torture by an allegedly democratic state. The Israeli child murderers were supposed to be the good guys, the antithesis of the corrupt arab regimes, or not as the case may be.
17 May 2011, 04:19 PM
#288
The better PR thing makes me laugh, Israel has some of the largest media companies in the world as its supporters, not to mention groups like the friends of Israel who used go go round kids schools telling children how great Israel was and how evil arabs are. I made my feelings pretty clear at the time but I am sure their anti Islamic propaganda machine is still touring the country talking to children.
I think we can agree one a few basic facts on the history of Israel though.
1. Zionism started in the late 1800's The aim of Zionism was too remove the arabs from the area of current Israel and associated occupied territories.
2. The first steps in Zionism involved Jewish people useing economic force to remove arabs from the area.
3.After the war zionism had a big boost as the British took control of the area and were very friendly to the zionist cause.
4. After ww2 despite further terrorist attacks by Israeli 'heroes' on the native population and other terrorist attacks against innocent British civilians by those same Israeli 'heroes'
the UK ignores arab opposition to he creation of Israel and recognises it any way.
5. After the arabs nations fail to deafeat Israel in battle they then have to suffer the continued ethinic cleansing and occupation that still takes place today.
6 The world wakes up to the horrific human right abuses and cold blooded murder carried out by Israel in its attacks on innocent people in occupied territory. Their ability to kill as many women and children as enemy fighters becomes legendary.
7. People start to wonder why the Israelis are so proud of their ability to kill women and children
Please add people if I missed anything out, I did not include the attacks on the USS liberty or the Golan heights invasion as I figured they were side stories.
I think we can agree one a few basic facts on the history of Israel though.
1. Zionism started in the late 1800's The aim of Zionism was too remove the arabs from the area of current Israel and associated occupied territories.
2. The first steps in Zionism involved Jewish people useing economic force to remove arabs from the area.
3.After the war zionism had a big boost as the British took control of the area and were very friendly to the zionist cause.
4. After ww2 despite further terrorist attacks by Israeli 'heroes' on the native population and other terrorist attacks against innocent British civilians by those same Israeli 'heroes'
the UK ignores arab opposition to he creation of Israel and recognises it any way.
5. After the arabs nations fail to deafeat Israel in battle they then have to suffer the continued ethinic cleansing and occupation that still takes place today.
6 The world wakes up to the horrific human right abuses and cold blooded murder carried out by Israel in its attacks on innocent people in occupied territory. Their ability to kill as many women and children as enemy fighters becomes legendary.
7. People start to wonder why the Israelis are so proud of their ability to kill women and children
Please add people if I missed anything out, I did not include the attacks on the USS liberty or the Golan heights invasion as I figured they were side stories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
17 May 2011, 05:25 PM
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"simple".
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Everyone feels sorry for the innocent Palestinians (and, one hopes, the innocent Israelis) caught up in the conflict. But conflicts have leaders and decision makers and in this instance that's Hamas on the 'side' of the Palestinians. I cannot, in good conscience, support Hamas. Do I want to see the Palestinian 'people' safe and undamaged? Of course! But, in conflicts, innocents die. Heart breaking, I know, but that's how it is. There are 'sides' in this, and just because the snuff-movies that Hamas turn-out are moving, doesn't mean I'm going to support them.
What are your thoughts on Hamas? You feel for the Palestinian people, right? How well do you think they're served by Hamas?
17 May 2011, 05:49 PM
#290
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Sorry which parts of it do you disagree with.
Jtaylor well done for comparing random acts of violence by extremeists to the systematic abuse and torture by an allegedly democratic state. The Israeli child murderers were supposed to be the good guys, the antithesis of the corrupt arab regimes, or not as the case may be.
Jtaylor well done for comparing random acts of violence by extremeists to the systematic abuse and torture by an allegedly democratic state. The Israeli child murderers were supposed to be the good guys, the antithesis of the corrupt arab regimes, or not as the case may be.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...uicide_attacks
That's what happens in conflicts. Shall we talk about human shielding and how the Israeli administration fell-out over whether to bow to it as a tactic? Hamas suicide bombers are located on the West Bank, Hamas build human shields around Brigade command and control, Israel have to decide whether they go ahead with the mission. How about Hamas get their shït together - if my leadership used human shields whilst our opponents used state-of-the-art gunships, I'd be asking what the hell my leadership had been up to over the years. I wouldn't be blaming the side with sophisticated weaponry for being more effective, I'd be looking to emulate it.
17 May 2011, 06:54 PM
#291
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Sabra and Shatila.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
"It was an apocalypse," [said Father Mansour Labaky, a Christian Maronite priest who survived the massacre at Damour:] They were coming, thousands and thousands, shouting "Allahu Akbar! (God is great!) Let us attack them for the Arabs, let us offer a holocaust to Mohammad!"
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_al-Zaatar_Massacre
"In their bitterness the Palestinian commanders ordered their artillery to open up on the fringes of the camp with the ostensible objective of hampering the attackers and helping those inside; instead the shells were landing among the hundreds who had got through the perimeter and were trying to escape. When they were told of this, the Palestinians made no attempt to lift their fire: they wanted martyrs".
Religion, eh?
17 May 2011, 08:07 PM
#292
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This thread is over. Like most dishonest people you try to play the Arbiter in the argument whilst being most biased in favor of one side.
Plus now you have started shouting propaganda even though it's been refuted elsewhere in the thread....as if telling a lie over and over will work...defeat the opposition with a megaphone.
Plus now you have started shouting propaganda even though it's been refuted elsewhere in the thread....as if telling a lie over and over will work...defeat the opposition with a megaphone.
If it's over don't post on it.
Refuted, by whom? You? LOL!
17 May 2011, 08:17 PM
#293
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Well, ok. Here's Hamas' CV:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...uicide_attacks
That's what happens in conflicts. Shall we talk about human shielding and how the Israeli administration fell-out over whether to bow to it as a tactic? Hamas suicide bombers are located on the West Bank, Hamas build human shields around Brigade command and control, Israel have to decide whether they go ahead with the mission. How about Hamas get their shït together - if my leadership used human shields whilst our opponents used state-of-the-art gunships, I'd be asking what the hell my leadership had been up to over the years. I wouldn't be blaming the side with sophisticated weaponry for being more effective, I'd be looking to emulate it.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...uicide_attacks
That's what happens in conflicts. Shall we talk about human shielding and how the Israeli administration fell-out over whether to bow to it as a tactic? Hamas suicide bombers are located on the West Bank, Hamas build human shields around Brigade command and control, Israel have to decide whether they go ahead with the mission. How about Hamas get their shït together - if my leadership used human shields whilst our opponents used state-of-the-art gunships, I'd be asking what the hell my leadership had been up to over the years. I wouldn't be blaming the side with sophisticated weaponry for being more effective, I'd be looking to emulate it.
You may recall the days of Arafat being stuck in his little building completely surrounded by the IDF? Well the Israelis made him look like a fool, so the people felt they needed someone stronger, so promptly voted in Hamas.
You see the pattern?
Human beings don't take kindly to being oppressed.
17 May 2011, 09:06 PM
#294
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You cannot complain about Hamas when their election to power was as a direct result of the Israeli suppression of Palestinians and the complete undermining of the PLO/Fatah organisation.
You may recall the days of Arafat being stuck in his little building completely surrounded by the IDF? Well the Israelis made him look like a fool, so the people felt they needed someone stronger, so promptly voted in Hamas.
You see the pattern?
Human beings don't take kindly to being oppressed.
You may recall the days of Arafat being stuck in his little building completely surrounded by the IDF? Well the Israelis made him look like a fool, so the people felt they needed someone stronger, so promptly voted in Hamas.
You see the pattern?
Human beings don't take kindly to being oppressed.
Last edited by JTaylor; 17 May 2011 at 09:15 PM. Reason: Typos.
17 May 2011, 09:54 PM
#295
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Ok, and I'm playing devil's advocate to an extent, here, how about the PLO/Fatah organisation being feckless and their replacement, Hamas, being equally incompetent. Why, after 400 years of Ottoman rule, are they unable get it together? Where are the Ottomans now? And what do the Palestinians do, 'vote'-in an Islamist organisation to dig them out of the mire?! Bad decision. So, why are Israel able to achieve what they've achieved in 60 years and why are the Palestinians using humans as weapons and shields and claiming oppression after 500 years? What system appears to be working best?
Look at the Saudi's or Qataris, whoever has the highest per capita income in the World: An obvious sign of success, but no one would really say, "Oh yes, look at them, aren't they great?" Would they??
Are you saying that because they are 'successful' they are allowed to be immoral? That goes for both the Israelis and the Saudis?
By default because the Palestinians are 'unsuccessful', we can do to them what we please?
Is this 'Might is right' again?
17 May 2011, 10:22 PM
#296
Look at the Saudi's or Qataris, whoever has the highest per capita income in the World: An obvious sign of success, but no one would really say, "Oh yes, look at them, aren't they great?" Would they??
Are you saying that because they are 'successful' they are allowed to be immoral? That goes for both the Israelis and the Saudis?
Are you saying that because they are 'successful' they are allowed to be immoral? That goes for both the Israelis and the Saudis?
17 May 2011, 10:27 PM
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You cannot complain about Hamas when their election to power was as a direct result of the Israeli suppression of Palestinians and the complete undermining of the PLO/Fatah organisation.
You may recall the days of Arafat being stuck in his little building completely surrounded by the IDF? Well the Israelis made him look like a fool, so the people felt they needed someone stronger, so promptly voted in Hamas.
You see the pattern?
Human beings don't take kindly to being oppressed.
You may recall the days of Arafat being stuck in his little building completely surrounded by the IDF? Well the Israelis made him look like a fool, so the people felt they needed someone stronger, so promptly voted in Hamas.
You see the pattern?
Human beings don't take kindly to being oppressed.
But you make a good point, and they did choose, but they choose death and destruction, they are stupid and lost as a people.
If the Pallies had had a Gandhi they would be living in a successful Palestinian state by now.
17 May 2011, 10:27 PM
#298
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I suppose it would be completely lost on this chap to point out the monumental difference between the Israels achieving their success through hard work and determination, while the Saudis did it through having the good fortune of sitting on a fortune in black gold under their desert. But hey, I just couldn't help myself
i suppose you could argue south africa achieved the same feat
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 17 May 2011 at 10:31 PM.
17 May 2011, 10:29 PM
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I suppose it would be completely lost on this chap to point out the monumental difference between the Israels achieving their success through hard work and determination, while the Saudis did it through having the good fortune of sitting on a fortune in black gold under their desert. But hey, I just couldn't help myself
The Pally Authority has incidentally received billions in aid...indeed it is funded by the EU! Nobody gets more aid than the Pallies.