Luan Pra bang

Stand up to them for the benefit of the UK and its people what else ? All the problems we have now with terrorism are caused by our sub-serviance to the US and Israel. Its funny how little we do to punish a nation like Israel that happily killed British civilains. If we had stood up to the Israeli child murderers and the Great satan America the world would now be a much more peaceful place.

tony de wonderful

The Terrorists don't like subservience?

What do you actually believe in Luan? Peace by appeasement or something more concrete?

Israel's enemies are much worse yet you would support them just to ensure 'peace'? What sort of philosophy is that? It sounds weak.

Why not 'stand up to Israel's enemies' That would ensure peace also. How about re-settle the Palestinians in wealthy gulf states?

I don't buy the idea that the Islamist terrorists have a legitimate complaint against the West. There's is an absolute political quest for power.

How does what Israel may or may not do compel a British Pakistani to blow up innocents on a tube train? Makes no sense.

Perhaps we should hear from some Palestinians instead of those who claim to speak for them?

Luan Pra bang

Americans have no concept of fair justice, take guantanamo or abu ghraib for examples of American justice. Or how aboiut people getitng life sentences for petty crimes ?

Why should the Palestinians be kicked out of their own lands Tony ? Why don't the Israeli child killers go somewhere else to live, Israel are the invaders the occupiers and the child murderers yet the Palestinians ar ethe ones being ethinically cleansed.
If you cannot understand why a pakisatni man can feel aggrieved about the murder of innocent people by Israel then there is no hope for you Tony.

tony de wonderful

America is not perfect but it's legal and political system is more just and fair that under any Islamic system.

Israel was set up by UN mandate...legally. Many Jew's fled there because of pogroms in the Islamic world.

Israel has agreed to a two state sloution and I agree with this, shame that Hamas, Hezzbollah don't want this. Who is the one stopping peace?

The Islamist on the other side deliberately kill Israeli children and celebrate it. You won't see Israel delibreately killing arab kids.

I don't buy the narrative that these British Pakistani men were made mutual victims by Israel because of Islamic solidarity....that Israel is making a victim of all muslims.

It's just a political tool for the Islamists to go on the offensive and claim political power....much easier to do if you can label yourself a victim.

Meanwhile the Palestinians suffer as these Islamists exploit their suffering and use them.

Luan Pra bang

That is an absolute lie Israel has not accepted a two state solutiom and never will, Israel has been offered most of Jerusalem, the right to evict the remaining arabs from their homeland in current Israel and a host of other concessions and was told that effectively Israel creates the facts on the ground using force so deal with it.



yes they do they just don't admit to it.

you don't have to buy, it its a fact that the main recruitment motivation for is the Israel Palestine conflict and the western invasions that stem from it. Wether you like it or not Israels aggression and murder of Palestinians created the Us vs them mentality that lets extremism flourish.


That is true Islamists do exploit the inhumane actions of America and Israel in order to further their own agenda and it is not a good thing to happen, a simple way to stop this would be a two state solution going back to the 1947 borders and the problem starts to dissapate. The more vested interests in the US Israel and UK try to provoke a war with Islam the more terrorists they will create.

Guv

iTrader: (8)

Something to consider.............At the end of the WW2 the UK was opposed to the State of Israel, it sent the Jews back to Germany who were turning up on the shore of Palestine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...lotilla-exodus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Ar...%93Israeli_War

The UK gave up lot it occupied territory to the US during and after WW2 as payment for war supplies this included at the Canada, West Indies and Islands in the Pacific.

A question to ask yourselves to why did the UK reverse it policy on the Jewish State and why does it continue to support it........

tony de wonderful

Please don't call me a liar. Polls have proven most Israeli's accept a two state solution. Don't forget that at the Camp David Summit it was Arafat who rejected the (two state solution with 95% of what he wanted) peace plan and never even bothered putting fwd his own counter offer.

How do you know that then? ...and why do they do it?

Looks to me like you want to believe this emotionally, because you have swallowed the Islamists narrative about Israel and the USA being the 'evil', the 'other'.

You should learn what scapegoating is.

'Invasions that stem from it'? What on earth are you talking about?

The Islamists use lies about the Jews and the West to recruit with, they uses anything they can to position Islam as a victim. It doesn't have to be true.

Again what does the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have to do with a British Pakistani Muslim living in say Luton?

'Inhumane actions of America and Israel'?? What is humane about 9/11 and 7/7, your argument makes no sense. The Islamists are not humanists, they kill women and children and celebrate.

Why should Israel roll back to the 1947 borders? The Arabs had their chance to accept the 1947 borders in 1947 and lost it!

'Vested interests'? What are you talking about ? 'War with Islam'?? This is absurd. Are you serious??

I'd like to have a reasonable argument with you but going on your rhetoric you seems to be absorbing the narrative of the Islamists which is not one of reason, but one of paranoia and scapegoating; Israel and the USA being the bad man, the 'evil' etc, making Islam a victim etc.

tony de wonderful

You seem to have all the answers, why don't you tell us?

How does the UK 'support' Israel? I don't see UK troops fighting and dying in Israeli wars? I see the UK giving funding the Palestinian authority though.

Any other states you would like to see dissolved?

Luan Pra bang

It was Israel that derailed the camp david summit and you know it so stop repeating this lie.







[quote['Invasions that stem from it'? What on earth are you talking about?[/quote[

I am talking about Iraq and Afganistan what else would I be talking about ?





Nothing whats your point ? What is humane about ethinically cleansing a population locking them behind a giant wall and killing them indiscriminately ?

So the Arabs shouild have just left Israel to remove them from their homes massacre people al a Yasser Dein and not fight back ? Would you fight for your land and home ? You have pretty much said that you think its OK for Israel to ethincally cleanse Palestine of the Palestinians. Tell me do you think Palestinians have the right to live in Palestine or not ? Do you think Israel has the right to evict the last remaining Arabs from Israel which has been made a condition of a two state solution ?

tony de wonderful

Not according to all sources I have read. It was Arafat who did not even propose a counter offer.

How does that have anything to do with Israel though?


That is ridiculous. Your whole line of 'argument' is nothing but regurgitating propaganda. There is no ethnic cleansing going on and the barrier is for rational security reasons although it appears distasteful to us people who have the luxury to sleep sound at night with no threat.

Really it is hard to have a debate when you adopt such unreasonable rhetoric.

Israel offered citizenship and rights to Arabs right from the start it was never set up as an exclusive state for Jewish people only.

I don't think ethnic cleansing is right so stop lying, but I don't think it reasonable to draw back to the 1947 borders when the Arabs lost that land by attacking and not negotiating in the first place! It's hypocritical.

There was never a 'Palestine' populated by 'Palestinians'. It was just a administrative district of the Ottoman empire populated by a mix of ethnic groups. Later the mandate was run by the British and it was theirs to do with as they fit and they chose to partition. I am not saying said plan was perfect but we could have had peace and prosperity now on both sides if the Arabs had not chosen the gun. The Islamic world has never offered Jewish self-determination and so Israel is the result, the pogroms drove more Jewish people to seeks security in Israel and there is no going back.

edit - I missed that in bold first time. Where on earth do you get your info??!!

Guv

iTrader: (8)

Seems like your a bit over sensitive on this issue Tony, I have no answers..I didn't even hint that I did.

I was asking a question? As to why the UK changed its view on a Jewish state and why it supports its existence now....

Personally as a Sikh and my roots are from India so my views are as an outsider looking into the situation and trying to understand it.

However i do think that the Western Governments have lot to answer for in all of the worlds politics, rather than interfering all of the time which has been the norm for the last 100 or so years I think there is an argument to let the populations of these countries get on with things themselves, something which has been realized more recently with the uprisings in Middle east.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Couldn't agree more

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

off topic Israel posts now in this thread.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

You drop that little gem into your launch, and we're expected to believe you intended this as a serious discussion? I'd hate to see what your idea of parody looks like.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Agreed, it should have been a capital S on Satan

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Typical. You rattle one cage, and all the little critters think it's time to come out.

Luan Pra bang

During the talks talks in November 2007 Tzipi Livni said 'Israel the state of the Jewish people and I would like to emphasize the point 'its people' means jewish people'
Another quote from Livni 'there is no 2 states if there is not 2 states for two people'

There are plenty of documents out there outlining the Israeli position on this. Including the right to return being taken away, of six million made stateless 1000 per year were agreed the right of return by Israel.

Luan Pra bang

If you disagree with the term wthinic cleansing then read this book by Ilan pappe, a Jewish Israeli. Its called the ethnic cleansing of palestine.

http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansi.../dp/1851684670

Luan Pra bang

The great satan was a joke about Tonys inabilty to accept any difference between Islam and fundamentalist terrorists.

tony de wonderful

I don't see anything in what you posted which says clearly that as part of the two state solution Israel wants to kick out ethnic arabs.

tony de wonderful

No that is rubbish.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

That is true!

Luan Pra bang

It does say quite cleary though that Israel is a state for Jewish people only. The main method of removing palestinians was Livni's demand that the 1967 line be redrawn to divide up villages moving Arab Israelis into the new state by adjusting borders and moving jewish settlements into Israel by adjusting borders. I can't be arsed to spoon feed you every conversation from every peace talk between the two sides if you really wanted to know the truth you you read them yourself.
There is also a quote about swapping illegal settler populations with Israeli Arabs in a two state solution but I am sure you are not really interested .
I

tony de wonderful

No his quote does not say 'only' Jewish people, plus also he is not the voice of Israel but one politician.

Yes the peace deal proposals did want to just move the 1967 borders around slightly to account for realities on the ground so as it include mostly jewish settlements inside and exclude arab ones.

That is a lot different than kicking out arab-israeli citizens from Israel since the areas you talk about are disputed and not full citizens.

Israel is not perfect, yes it is a Jewish state but also a democracy where non-jews do have rights and can vote etc.

If the objection is that it is not a true liberal democracy I can buy that, but it is closer to that than any Islamic alternative and no Islamic state offers equal rights to non-Muslims. The Islamic world never offered self-determination to Jews so Israel is necessary.

Bonehead

Here are 20 conveniently overlooked facts that give some perspective to the current Middle East situation. These were compiled by a Christian university professor..... Takes just 1.5 minutes to read!!!

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4.The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish refugees: Arabs were not driven out of their homes. Following the UN decision on Partition in 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders, promising to purge the land of Jews. They argued that an "Arab presence" would only get in the way of the planned devastation. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees absorbed by Israel from Arab countries is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank and autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied their police and security forces with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Jewish grave markers were used to build public urinals in occupied Jerusalem. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. record on Israel and the Arabs of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel -- notwithstanding the fact that the Arabs refused to participate in the 15 nation United Nations Commission of Palestine which recommended partition in 1948 and sought immediately to undo its work by force of arms.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N. was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians between 1948 and 1967.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives between 1948 and 1967.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what would scooby do

tl;dr

Luan Pra bang

Great list bonehead shame most of it is untrue. I would love to know which professor came up with it becasue I don't think any real professor could have failed to estabilsh that that list is bollocks.

tony de wonderful

I don't agree all points are relevant but as to being untrue I won't just take your word for it.

AsifScoob

Are you referring to Tzipi Livni Tony? I think you will find that he is in fact a she. Seems like you don't really know who, or what, you're talking about?

She is quite a prominent politician in Israel, and VERY hardline. One of your cuddly, 'peace loving' Israelis.


So why are you SO interested in defending Israel Tony? You are either Israeli therefore your opinion is irrelevant as clearly biased, or, going by your own logic, it has nothing to do with you.

Please explain.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Sorry, but why should Tony be any less interested in defending Israel than you, Luan Pra Bang, F1 or anyone else be interested in putting Israel down? Were any of you born there, or in the Gaza Strip, or the West Bank?