f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Have to say that for once I am speechless....

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I may not necessarily agree with all of what James says but there's no duplicity in his stance. The whole ME and Israel issue is contentious and emotive to say the least. There's never going to be consensus on a discussion forum but discussion and debate should be encouraged. The name calling is not particularly edifying.

tony de wonderful

There are plenty of foreign people coming to the UK.

Guv

iTrader: (8)

Where just getting our own back

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I don't condone a 'let anyone in' policy and feel we need much tighter immigration, do you condone unmitigated immigration?

Luan Pra bang

Because if I spent time answering every bit if ill informed rubbish posted by tony I would spend my life on scoobynet. I try to only post things that may give him pause for thought before going back to his typical blinkered view. A man as comitted as Tony to defending Israel yet he had no idea who Tzipi Livni is ? The man is either brain dead or or so blinded by racial and religious hatred that facts and reality mean nothing to him.

Luan Pra bang

If I mug a teenager and steal his phone I am proving that might is, the moral perspective is different. To say that 'might is' seems a bit pointless and irrelevent. Israel is, they have the might to occupy, controll and kill palestinians. That does not stop me having issue with the morals behind it.

tony de wonderful

So what is your moral objection to Israel exactly?

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure if you missed the point there - JT does not appear to be agreeing with the philosophy, merely hightlighting it. Pretty much as I did when he said it.

Question: does society define what is moral? (or ethical?) Because if it does, and that society is mightier...

tony de wonderful

That is not the point. You have people criticising Israels (a sovereign states) immigration policies. It's absurd.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

Did tony de woeful just duck another question

Maz

iTrader: (34)

That is too subjective a question. Sides and fences and lots of other emotive factors play in the answering of that question.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Contexts and parallels......

Luan Pra bang

You are right the achievements of Israel are impressive while plenty of American money helped to make it happen, they at least manage some democracy, in the middle of dropping bombs and their own form of ethinc cleansing. Its just a shame that they reserve all the benefits for Jews and not Arabs.

Thats why I am starting to believe that the two state solution is pointless, Palestinians should change their demands from a two state solution to a one state solution where Palestinians can be a part of Israeli life with the same rights as any Jew. Let the refugees return and create one country of Jews and Muslims and let democracy take place. I cannot imagine it will be easy but I cannot understand a moral standpoint where the palestinian people who have lived in an area for thousands of years , are expected to up sticks and leave so a load of Europeans can set up a country.
I am interested in ypur personal view Jtaylor on wether any palestinians should be allowed back to Israel, wether they should be given their homes and property back and wether there should be any change in the Israeli policy that Israel is a state only for Jews ?

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Counter the argument with debate.

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

Which I have to admit is kind of the point. Morals and Ethics are meant to be absolute, but they never are - it becomes (IMHO) a matter of what the gestalt says rather than stay with the moral core.

Luan Pra bang

The question posed was what right does a European jew have......
JT responded becasue the victors gave them that right.

As I said just pointing out that the winner get the choices seems pretty pointless an irrelevant to the thread.

With regards to defining ethics and morals within a society that is a whole thread on its own as the concept of morals, in my opinion is closly linked with the concept of justice and each society creates its own ideas for both which is constantly changing as we move through the ages.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

But that can never be taken to an extreme. As individuals we all know the difference between right and wrong, fairness and justice. Those ideals are absolute and succinct in their meaning. We must never lose sight of that and justify might as right. If might is right then we are justifying tyranny and meglomania like Hitler and the *****.

tony de wonderful

That is crap the Arabs in Israel have the same rights, but you are right in that Israel is a 'jewish state' but what states in the Arab and Islamic world offer equal rights to non-muslims? Answer is NONE! So stones and glass houses springs to me,

Perhaps we should hear from some actual Palestinians rather than people who claim to speak for them and know what they 'should' want?

Arabs living in Israel do have rights so stop this demagougery about it being a 'state for jews' do you even know what they means?

The Palestinian exodus was voluntary, the Arab states urged it and promised to crush Israel. Nothing in the founding of Israel by the British Mandade/UN called for any ethnic cleansing so please stop lying because it is hard to take you seriously when all you do is parrot anti-israeli propaganda.

Luan Pra bang

The peace process depends on the Arab state recognising that Israel is a state for the Jews. That is fact tony. Israeli arabs do not have the same rights as Jewish Israelis clearly demonstrated by the fact that proper peace talks cannot take place untill Israel has agreements on how to deal with its 'population transfer' and 'demographic' problems. This is also fact tony. If Arab Israelis had rights then how could they be forcibly moved to a new state ? Irans Jews are protected by a fatwa. that is also a fact tony.
The exodus was not voluntary people ran away from a violent war in which women and children were deliberately killed in cold blood to force the Palestinians to flee their homes. Those that stayed often still had thier homes bulldozed. The ethinic cleansing is still happening now Tony why don't you cheack out the report on the matter carried out for the UN and the Human rights council in Geneva. Let me guess the UN is spouting anti Israeli propaganda as well ?

tony de wonderful

What do you even mean by that? Do you know?

Are they being?

Please, being 'protected' by Muslim majority is to be owned by that same Muslim majority....that is not the same as equal rights or self-determination.

Islamic systems have afforded 'protection' to minorities from time to time, but that same protection can just as easily disappear or give way to persecution as has happened to minorities in the Islamic world many times.

If you are protected by someone you are owned by them and at their mercy.

But most didn't see a Jewish soldier.

There were militias on both sides doing killing I admit that, but I wonder where you got your history from?

These Palestinians should not have just packed up and left. What right do you have to property if you fail to do your duty top defend it?

JTaylor

Instead of blaming the yanks, why not go back half a millenium to the Battle of Vienna. Europe embraced the Renaissance and subsequently the Enlightenment and now, via America, have hegemony. The Ottomans embraced retrograde, immutable Islamism* and where did that lead? If America, GB and France can rock-up and take control, why is that? Atatürk asked the same question in the early part of the last century and decided to follow our lead. Good decision. They're doing alright, thanks, and its citizens can still practice Islam and leave the state to make decisions based on reason.

Why haven't the Arab states been able to compete? The oil revenue is astronomical! Its because the system underpinning the region doesn't work. Since the advent of the internet, where young people can access broad knowledge, people have started to wake up. Tunisia, Egypt, Libya - they want what the west have - let's hope the Brotherhood don't **** it up for them.

So ask the Mufti what he was upto supporting the ***** in WW2 and Hamas why they took bungs from Saddam and why Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia all failed in their invasion attempts. I'd also ask why the Palestinians can't put together a credible opposition. If they're weak, why is that? And the Ottomans were around a hell of lot longer than America.

So would I let Arabs move into Israel en masse? No. I think it would present a security risk. Just look at the risk posed to this country because we've allowed Islamism** in.

Does Islamism work? Is it compatible with Liberal Democracy? If not, why not?What's proved successful over the centuries and what hasn't? I'm not saying people should drop Islam, but one needs to ask serious questions about how well Islamism as a system of governance has served the dead kids in Banny's video and the dead kids on the buses in Tel Aviv.

* Not Islam.
**Not Muslims before anyone gets indignant and excitable.

tony de wonderful

But Europe was oppressing Islam by not allowing itself to be conquered and assimilated!

Corrupt and useless elites propped up with oil revenues.

The Arabs have always been feckless.

Liberalism is grounded in reason, Islamism in fantasy.

tony de wonderful

True but from any reasonable POV the Israelis have the moral high ground over Hamas, Hezzbollah etc who deliberately target civilians and operate with no moral limits.

Luan Pra bang

Tony grow up ethinic cleansing did and is happening. We both know that to be true the evidence is overwhelming.
You asked for Muslim countries that had Jewish populations I gave you Iran how about Turkey then if you don't like the example I already gave you. All of which is typical distraction form the main point.
The plan of Zionism was to remove the arabs from Israel that is a fact Tony there are too many quotes to list about this fact ,ethinic cleansing was, is and always will be the goal of Israel and Zionists. It has been that way since the birth of zionism to dispute this is frankly ridiculous Tony.

Ben-Gurion wrote, “We must expel Arabs and take their places… and, if we have to use force then we have force at our disposal.”.

A quote from the 'father of Israel'

tony de wonderful

Just because you say it does not make it so.

I don't dispute their is a loony settler fringe but they are NOT the state of Israel is entirety....they are a fringe minority....one I might add who would have less sway if Hamas, Hezzbollah etc stopped attacking.

No I asked for ones where Jewish people had equal rights. Being protected by a fatwa is NOT an equal right....a fatwa can just as easily be revoked.

Iran persecutes the Bahá'ís for example it could just as easily be Jews. This is the problem with a state biased in favour of Islam.

I didn't know Ben-Gurion was in charge of Israeli government policy?

JTaylor

Ok, let's go with that for the sake of this conversation. Why didn't the Arabs, who've been around for millenia and who have some of the most resource rich land on the planet and who have the support of a 1.5 billion strong Ummah, stop them? The Ummah outnumber the Jews by 1000-1 - how did they fail to protect 'their land'? If I were an 'Arab on the street' I'd be properly pissed off with my leadership, but the leadership pin it on the Yanks and the Jews - and you lot seem to be buying it!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Just as a slight aside if 'might is' then Israel had better be hoping that Iran ain't that clever in the nuclear weapons builiding stakes or that their buddies the good 'ol World Police step in for them..... if of course Iran have a nuclear weapons program at all. After all intelligence as regards what these nations do and don't have isn't exatly the West's strong point

hodgy0_2

could it be that the rich and corrupt leaders of these Arab states -- in close consort with the west (I believe the Bush and Suad family are on first name terms) have appropriated their countries "resource" wealth, and sold it on the cheap to the west -- which has enabled them to hold power over the empoverished and dissenfranchised and poorly educated population -- thus leading to a rise in the "easy answers" Islamism provides

Luan Pra bang

Why use the term Islamism ,its at best vague and at worst deliberately offensive. You define Islamism as political and Militant Islam so use those words instead, personaly I don't believe in the use of the word Islamism as me and many others find it used as a sublte attack on Islam. You can surely use a more specific phrase than that.
You seem to have changed tack I agree that Turkey made the right choice in seperating religion and state so what has this to do with Israel and its war crimes and ethinic cleansing ?
I thank you for pointing out that Islamism was the cause of the downfall if the 400 old 3 continent spanning ottoman empire. I take it you have some evidence for this as the ottomans had tolerance for all mono theistic religions so I am not sure how 'Islamism' casued that emprie to fall.
Given other nations that have been subjugateds to the west can we blame the catholics in south America for their religion keeping them down ? How about the Hindus or the sikhs ? Is Islamism the cause of colonialisation in the southern half of Africa as well or is most of your post above ridiculous rubbish ?
Allowing refugees the right of return to their homes is not the same thing as allowing Islamism to flourish so why compare the two ? You feign indigation when people are offended by the term Islamists and you point out that Muslims and Islamists are different but you then go on to indicate that allowing refugees back to Israel is the same as allowing Islamist back to Israel ? Make you mind up.
You have a great piece of logic at the end of your post, Its the arab leaders fault that Israel was created and ethnic cleansing and oppresion began ? You don't think Israel America and the UK had a role ? Is their no chance that Israel could be responsable for the children it drops bombs on. Your logic suggests that the battle of Britan was Churchills fault, after all he could have given in to the ***** and avioded a war.