hodgy0_2

tell me what right had a jew born in Berlin to settle on land in Palestine/Israel

what right has the 100,s of thousands of eastern european jews (who have no link other than they are jews to the ME) to settle on land in Israel/Palestine

they have settlements in Palestine/Israel that have roadsigns in Russian FFS -- pretty fvcking irritating if you have been grazing your sheep on the land for the past 200 years

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

If we're going to get into this side of debate, I'll re-issue the challenge I made to Asif further back in the thread, specifically will a single one of the critics of Israel posting in this thread openly acknowledge that for the first few decades of its existence, its neighbours would literally have wiped it off the map permanently if they'd been given free reign to do so?

JTaylor

Done well, haven't they? Democracy, parliamentary system, universal suffrage, one of the highest life expectancies on the planet, top spot on the UN's HDI index for the Middle East, Nobel prize winners coming out of their ears, a strong and successful defence force, modern cities, vibrant culture and all against a backdrop of them being, irrefutably, the founders of monotheism.

I often wonder if there isn't a little jealousy in the region. To accomplish all of that and with not a drop of oil in sight.

hodgy0_2

that is historical fact, along with the fact the most western democracies supported Israel -- why the change

but feel free to answer my questions

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I think you might be surprised at just how few of the people wading in 'on your side' of the debate in this thread would actually agree with you, or at the very least at how hard they'd find it to admit as much.

JTaylor

Because WW2 was fought and the winners gave them that right. History happened. They've held on to their prize. Two state deal rejected - error. Seven invasions - failed. Israel exists.

hodgy0_2

don't patronise me

just answer my question if you want to

if not fine, this is the internet after all and i'm not that bothered either way

and my views are my own thanks, don't try and link them to anyone else’s

hodgy0_2

so the "might is right" argument -- fine, 7 pages but we got there in the end

AsifScoob

But that's exactly what you do. You cannot grasp how someone might want to speak up against the killing of innocent women and children, as happens in Palestine every single day, at the hands of the Israeli military, without wanting to blow up tube trains in London, can you?

You seek to demonise anyone who might wish to challenge you in this debate, it's not rational of you, is it?

Why do you care what happens to Israel anyway? What's it to you?

AsifScoob

Are you sure about that? The UN set up Israel and told them to just get on with it? I don't think so. Soviet aid to the Arabs was much later anyway and nowhere even close to what the West gave Israel.

It's not very brave to fly around in your state of the art jet and drop bombs on women and children in their sleep is it?

Suicide bombers refer to themselves as warriors too you know?

AsifScoob

That is so wrong.

AsifScoob

If that is ok with you considering the cost, then fine I suppose. It's not ok with me, my morals will not allow me to approve.

AsifScoob

Mark,

I am sorry you may have to redirect me to that specific challenge. As for your point I say, so what? If you found a boil on your bum would you not want it to be lanced right off?

Sometimes I feel that 'Westerners' conveniently forget that anti semitism is a white, christian, invention, and try to attribute it to Muslims. Reality check is required I think. If Muslims hated Jews so much, the Jews would have been long gone by now. It's a modern fallacy that certain people would have you believe.

I am sure I asked you a question or two didn't I? Did you answer those please?

AsifScoob

That still doesn't give them the 'right'.

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

might is always right.... the Winners write history.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Seriously, a boil on their bum? I won't deny that I expected some reaction, but it looks like I really hit the jackpot there.

Anyhow, lmao at you expecting someone to dignify you with a worthwhile answer to anything, after a comment like that. I certainly wouldn't soil my fingers typing one.

JTaylor

No. Might is.

It's nice being liberal. It's easy being a Liberal (well, until you actually get into power.) One gets to sleep soundly at night and feel good about oneself. But it wasn't a liberal or passive foreign policy that funded the Oxford, Cambridge and Edinburgh Universities, put men on the moon or fuel in your car or funded the National Health Service. All that was done by winning wars and not losing them. Australia and New Zealand aren't the thriving, desirable countrys they are today because Cook felt sorry for the Aboriginals and the Mauri. Likewise the Native Americans - ask yourself, if Raleigh had been all sentimental, would the West now enjoy modern secularism. Think Virginia (as in Queen Elizabeth 1) Statute for Freedom of Religion - if he'd thought 'ah, bless 'em', there would have been no Thomas Jefferson.

What do you think I feel when I see the innocents caught up in all this suffering? Glee? Satisfaction? No, I feel sick for them. That doesn't mean I'll waver. Because I want to take my car out tomorrow on our (relatively) nice roads and then go for a posh lunch and possibly go to Cardiff's I-max in the evening. The Jews get to do that too, now, in their own homeland. And they'll fight to defend their right to do that and the US will support them and we'll support the US and so on so forth.

Next time you're in Other Marques salivating over car ****, remember how that was won. And it wasn't through being a pansy. If a nation or a group of people can't get their shît together, perhaps they ought to look to their leadership over the centuries and ask a few searching questions. They can claim victimhood if they like, but all that wins is sympathy from mild-mannered westerners. It doesn't put a £50k car outside their detached house or put their kids through a top university. Limousine Liberalism. Nonsense.

AsifScoob

Mark,

Have you been at the Creme De Menthe again? What are you on about? As I said earlier I say what I see. If you are going to type some of the stuff you come out with, please don't be surprised at the response.

You really need to get over yourself.

That reaction to what I posted but no reaction to what Tony has typed on this thread? He is more bothered by people using images of dead children as opposed to people actually killing the children in the first place.

Isn't it about time you got off your high horse and stopped pretending to be so 'objective' and 'balanced'? In your case I have concluded it is in the absence of a sensible argument.

Sorry mate, but you need to do better.

Otherwise, feel free to not respond, it won't affect this thread.

JTaylor

Your morals or your allegiance? How's the west treating you, Asif?

JTaylor

AsifScoob

You make a couple of good points James, but by your logic, we should perhaps bring back slavery? (or condone it?) You surely wouldn't condone this? Despite your seemingly black and white (no pun intended) view of history?

AsifScoob

This requires a very long answer James, too long for this time of night. I'm going to sleep on it and try to come up with a concise one tomorrow.

JTaylor

Damned by feint praise.

Night, night.

Luan Pra bang

A 5 minute session with google could demonstrate the complete ignorance in what you have posted there Tony so why bother embarass yourself with such rubbish.

JTaylor

And a 5 minute investment of your time to counter his points would make for a fair read. If you really care about this, why be lazy?

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

Round and round we go

hodgy0_2

i was going to post that this looks like some of "bully's charter", which is ironically where I came in on this thread

but I won't

tony de wonderful

Militarism is a fact of history...it works, but it's not a charter for bullying. Militarism can be good or bad depending upon the intentions.

Cultural advancement is more organic though, I view it a bit like Capatalism...the competition etc. Aboriginal and Native American cultures went down because they were weak and their time had come.

JTaylor

I allude to the struggle with my conscience here:

https://www.scoobynet.com/showpost.p...6&postcount=51

And here:

https://www.scoobynet.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=98

I'm the dove who's run out of reasons to maintain that position, Hodgy. Stop calling me names, please.

GlesgaKiss

Realpolitik... It's given us so much. We should all be thankfull to people like JTaylor, who fortunately are kind enough to dedicate a little of their time to decide how others should best spend theirs.

These discussions are hypocritical, contradictory mong-fests which have to be seen to be believed! Easy to talk about how necessary something is when you're sitting in the safety of your own home in a stable, rich country. The people on the receiving end of what you condone would be somewhat less appreciative.