Israel thread
What's the problem? 
12 May 2011, 05:05 PM
#62
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12 May 2011, 05:25 PM
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Why is this important? The UK in 1312 B.C.E was not made up of Angles, Saxons, Romans, Danes or Normans, so are you advocating that because Israel was around 3000 years ago that the UL should eject anyone who is not related to the original Britons and become whatever it was called then?
Again, why is this relevant? The original Kingdom of Israel was conquered well over two thousand years ago. Non-Jews have been living there continuously for thousands of years too.
What exactly are you trying to say here? Israel was conquered (or at least the land where Israel was, it had ceased to exist long before) by several different parties over subsequent centuries after the first Arab invasion. This statement is meaningless.
Again, why is this relevant? The original Kingdom of Israel was conquered well over two thousand years ago. Non-Jews have been living there continuously for thousands of years too.
What exactly are you trying to say here? Israel was conquered (or at least the land where Israel was, it had ceased to exist long before) by several different parties over subsequent centuries after the first Arab invasion. This statement is meaningless.
It's important because the pro-Palestinians/Islamists try and play the 'nativist' card i.e the 'Palestinians' (whatever that means anywhere) were there first. But clearly they were not if you look a little further back in history.
Who are you to decide that?!
12 May 2011, 05:32 PM
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13 May 2011, 12:28 AM
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You use the actions of a handful of nutcases to define a group of people of 1.3 billion, which happens to include me.
What's good for you is good for me, no?
13 May 2011, 12:30 AM
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13 May 2011, 12:31 AM
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You keep trotting this bloke out James, why? Who is he and why do you feel he is so important? What significance does he have and what point does it prove?
13 May 2011, 01:51 AM
#70
Amazing. Without the slightest shred of irony, you make it sound like it's the most natural thing in the world to condemn a country for the mere fact of existing. And like it or not, that's the plain truth of it, Asif. If Israel's enemies had been given a free hand to do with it what they would in the first few decades of its life, or if Israel hadn't defended itself so forcefully from them during that time, it simply wouldn't be there at all any more.
Let's see if you can at least bring yourself to acknowledge that much.
Let's see if you can at least bring yourself to acknowledge that much.
13 May 2011, 04:27 AM
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Amazing. Without the slightest shred of irony, you make it sound like it's the most natural thing in the world to condemn a country for the mere fact of existing. And like it or not, that's the plain truth of it, Asif. If Israel's enemies had been given a free hand to do with it what they would in the first few decades of its life, or if Israel hadn't defended itself so forcefully from them during that time, it simply wouldn't be there at all any more.
Let's see if you can at least bring yourself to acknowledge that much.
Let's see if you can at least bring yourself to acknowledge that much.
13 May 2011, 08:52 AM
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I can decide whatever I want, it's an internet forum
Geezer
13 May 2011, 09:01 AM
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13 May 2011, 10:20 AM
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I referenced "this bloke" during the burqa 'conversation' in response to your claim that Sarkozy was wrong to ban it partly because some men, who happened to be born Muslims, died at the Somme at the hands of the Germans. The notion alluded to the idea of a collective. I countered this by making the point that if there is a collective, then it has to be a two way street. I referenced the Former Grand Mufti of Palestine as an example of a man, who happened to be born a Muslim, who was an unashamed anti-Semite and colluded with the *****. This was designed to highlight the contradictions of your argument.
The reasons I've referenced The Mufti in this thread are two-fold, first to add to the **** 'irony' idea thrown in earlier, and second to point out that perhaps, just perhaps, the Mufti made a bad decision in supporting the axis during WW2.
I'm sure you recognise his historical importance when discussing the formation of the Israeli state.*
*Apparently not.
I've provided links, I'm not going to write an essay for you. It proves the point that Arab leaders, who were born Muslim, made bad decisions on the run up to and during WW2, a major feature of which was the Jewish holocaust. Some of those decisions either directly or indirectly contributed to the formation of the State of Israel.
The Mufti was deeply opposed to the idea of a Jewish state, chose the wrong side during WW2, and now Israel exists. Ironic, eh?
The reasons I've referenced The Mufti in this thread are two-fold, first to add to the **** 'irony' idea thrown in earlier, and second to point out that perhaps, just perhaps, the Mufti made a bad decision in supporting the axis during WW2.
I'm sure you recognise his historical importance when discussing the formation of the Israeli state.*
*Apparently not.
I've provided links, I'm not going to write an essay for you. It proves the point that Arab leaders, who were born Muslim, made bad decisions on the run up to and during WW2, a major feature of which was the Jewish holocaust. Some of those decisions either directly or indirectly contributed to the formation of the State of Israel.
The Mufti was deeply opposed to the idea of a Jewish state, chose the wrong side during WW2, and now Israel exists. Ironic, eh?
Last edited by JTaylor; 13 May 2011 at 10:32 AM.
13 May 2011, 10:34 AM
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Palestinians have been left with 22% of the land they have lived on for 100's of years now Israel will not even let them keep that 22%. Families divided by force and violence kicked out from their homes and no right to return, great humanitarians Israel.
13 May 2011, 12:26 PM
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It was wrong to displace the Arabs from the place where they lived at the time, especially as they were displace by people who had not lived there previously.
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13 May 2011, 12:35 PM
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The Mufti was not the only one who colluded with the opposite side in WW2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose
'One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
Tony DW I didn't bother reply to your previous answer as you ignored my originally question and moved on to the moguls and got the fact wrong that the British took over from them.
I guess you have never heard of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Maharaja Dulip Singh....who ruled the Northern India from Afghanistan to Nepal before the British took over, Indians ruling India!!
'One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
Tony DW I didn't bother reply to your previous answer as you ignored my originally question and moved on to the moguls and got the fact wrong that the British took over from them.
I guess you have never heard of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Maharaja Dulip Singh....who ruled the Northern India from Afghanistan to Nepal before the British took over, Indians ruling India!!
13 May 2011, 12:52 PM
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Amazing. Without the slightest shred of irony, you make it sound like it's the most natural thing in the world to condemn a country for the mere fact of existing. And like it or not, that's the plain truth of it, Asif. If Israel's enemies had been given a free hand to do with it what they would in the first few decades of its life, or if Israel hadn't defended itself so forcefully from them during that time, it simply wouldn't be there at all any more.
Let's see if you can at least bring yourself to acknowledge that much.
Let's see if you can at least bring yourself to acknowledge that much.
As you consider yourself to be even handed and objective, apparently unlike myself, why not ask him to provide a simple answer to a simple question? He doesn't appear to wish to answer it from me.
If you wish to start a discussion on Israel itself, how and why it has had to defend itself, lets start at the reason that it was created: because 6 million Jews were murdered by white Christians, no? Let's start there and see how todays events pale into insignificance slightly, shall we?
Asif
13 May 2011, 01:05 PM
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I referenced "this bloke" during the burqa 'conversation' in response to your claim that Sarkozy was wrong to ban it partly because some men, who happened to be born Muslims, died at the Somme at the hands of the Germans. The notion alluded to the idea of a collective. I countered this by making the point that if there is a collective, then it has to be a two way street. I referenced the Former Grand Mufti of Palestine as an example of a man, who happened to be born a Muslim, who was an unashamed anti-Semite and colluded with the *****. This was designed to highlight the contradictions of your argument.
I am not sure of your point, surely as the Grand Mufti of Palestine he was in a position where the issue was close to his heart? He clearly thought there was something in it for him and perhaps he had had enough of the British Empire at that point? Almost the whole World was taking sides then in a conflict that was far larger than the Israel/Jewish question. Not saying he was right by the way, but the man made the wrong choice. I get it.
I've provided links, I'm not going to write an essay for you. It proves the point that Arab leaders, who were born Muslim, made bad decisions on the run up to and during WW2, a major feature of which was the Jewish holocaust. Some of those decisions either directly or indirectly contributed to the formation of the State of Israel.
13 May 2011, 01:07 PM
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The Mufti was not the only one who colluded with the opposite side in WW2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose
'One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
Tony DW I didn't bother reply to your previous answer as you ignored my originally question and moved on to the moguls and got the fact wrong that the British took over from them.
I guess you have never heard of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Maharaja Dulip Singh....who ruled the Northern India from Afghanistan to Nepal before the British took over, Indians ruling India!!
'One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
Tony DW I didn't bother reply to your previous answer as you ignored my originally question and moved on to the moguls and got the fact wrong that the British took over from them.
I guess you have never heard of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Maharaja Dulip Singh....who ruled the Northern India from Afghanistan to Nepal before the British took over, Indians ruling India!!
British never took on the Maharaja directly, he was too powerful IIRC. They had to wait until after he had died. Punjab was seriously strong in those days.
Asif
13 May 2011, 01:54 PM
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The Mufti was not the only one who colluded with the opposite side in WW2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose
'One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
'One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
Tony DW I didn't bother reply to your previous answer as you ignored my originally question and moved on to the moguls and got the fact wrong that the British took over from them.
I guess you have never heard of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Maharaja Dulip Singh....who ruled the Northern India from Afghanistan to Nepal before the British took over, Indians ruling India!!
I guess you have never heard of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or Maharaja Dulip Singh....who ruled the Northern India from Afghanistan to Nepal before the British took over, Indians ruling India!!
Besides were not the Maharajas decended from higher caste Aryan invaders?
The more you think about the idea of nativism the more a construct it appears.
13 May 2011, 01:56 PM
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Large tracts of land were sold by Arabs to zionists, besides the creation of Israel did not specifically call to evict anyone, it was strictly speaking a change in the administration for people within its borders. The Palestinians exodus was a result of the Arabs attacking.
13 May 2011, 02:20 PM
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Large tracts of land were sold by Arabs to zionists, besides the creation of Israel did not specifically call to evict anyone, it was strictly speaking a change in the administration for people within its borders. The Palestinians exodus was a result of the Arabs attacking.
13 May 2011, 02:27 PM
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As you consider yourself to be even handed and objective, apparently
If you wish to start a discussion on Israel itself, how and why it has had to defend itself, lets start at the reason that it was created: because 6 million Jews were murdered by white Christians, no? Let's start there and see how todays events pale into insignificance slightly, shall we?
Asif
If you wish to start a discussion on Israel itself, how and why it has had to defend itself, lets start at the reason that it was created: because 6 million Jews were murdered by white Christians, no? Let's start there and see how todays events pale into insignificance slightly, shall we?
Asif
13 May 2011, 02:39 PM
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I haven't done that, I've merely referenced the Mufti for the reasons I outlined above. Collective or not? Support Israel - one offends the 'Muslim world', whatever that means. Support America - one offends the 'Muslim world'. Remove Saddam - one offends the 'Muslim world'. Chase down AQ criminals and their hosts, The Taliban in Aghanistan - one offends the Muslim world. Write a book - one offends the 'Muslim world'. Draw a cartoon - one offends the 'Muslim world'. Reference The Mufti's collusion with the ***** - it's only one man. You don't always do this, by the way, but this narrative does seem to prevail. I might be wrong, and hopefully time will prove me wrong, but it does seem to be the case. Anyway, moving on and back to the subject of the Jews and Israel but retaining the theme of sweeping generalistions:
This 'Offending the Muslim World' stuff, is only to be found in the media channels that seek to sensationalise these things.
The comparison you are making above lacks logic, therefore is not valid.
Are you going to return the courtesy and respond to all of my points? Would make a nice change.
Why decry me for something you do yourself? Seemingly all of the time?
13 May 2011, 02:52 PM
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