Thank god for Cameron and Osborne
28 April 2011, 12:48 PM
#31
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I do recognise the global recession and the mess the bankers made, the problem is Labour thought the former would never happen and encouraged the latter.
We would have been in a position to cope with global events far better if Labour hadn't spent so much money. Things would have still been hard but nowhere near as hard had we not have such a huge structural deficit.
And actually lots of people were saying this prior to 2007, you just had to listen to the right people (and I'm not talking about Cable)
So, in my mind, the problems we are facing may well have been triggered by global events but it is Labours fault that we had no defence against them.
Somebody has to sort this mess out and it will be painful for everybody. Higher earners are not spared and the poor have not been hit hardest.
This term of office is a poisoned chalice and actually will probably mean that Cameron and his govt are thrown out in four years time, such will be the pain. So if Cameron and Osborne stick to their guns it will show that they have done whats right for the country long term rather than short term populism.
This, in my mind, will make them leaders to be proud of and true Conservatives.
Unfortunately people on the whole can be quite easily fooled, and Labour will probably convince the masses that all this pain was unnecessary and we could have just carried on as we were.
We would have been in a position to cope with global events far better if Labour hadn't spent so much money. Things would have still been hard but nowhere near as hard had we not have such a huge structural deficit.
And actually lots of people were saying this prior to 2007, you just had to listen to the right people (and I'm not talking about Cable)
So, in my mind, the problems we are facing may well have been triggered by global events but it is Labours fault that we had no defence against them.
Somebody has to sort this mess out and it will be painful for everybody. Higher earners are not spared and the poor have not been hit hardest.
This term of office is a poisoned chalice and actually will probably mean that Cameron and his govt are thrown out in four years time, such will be the pain. So if Cameron and Osborne stick to their guns it will show that they have done whats right for the country long term rather than short term populism.
This, in my mind, will make them leaders to be proud of and true Conservatives.
Unfortunately people on the whole can be quite easily fooled, and Labour will probably convince the masses that all this pain was unnecessary and we could have just carried on as we were.
I am not saying that in a 'weren't Labour great ' sort of a way, but just that despite them we still have a reasonably good standard of living (on average).
I don't think that Labour will get voted in at the next election unless Cameron does something very silly in the next 4 years and to be honest I think the Conservatives (if they stand on their own) will pick up a lot of votes from disaffected Lib Dems and will probably get a majoirty government. The linering memory of Brown's term as PM will haunt the Labour PArty for many years to come and Ed Milliband is not the man to take them forward long term I don't think.
Sadly though I disagree with you on Cameron and Osbourne being true Conservatives. I think those days are gone from all political parties and it is now about doing enough to get themselves elected rather than really having the courage of their convictions. Career politicians first, everything else second
28 April 2011, 01:24 PM
#33
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Well let me ask you a question? Do you think that in 12 months time things will be better or worse?
Thanks to the cuts, the VAT increase, the huge increase in fuel, food etc.the government harping on and on about how the coountry has been wrecked by Labour, the Middle East unrest and our involvement in it and Japan's Tsunami aftermath the public in the UK are basically being worried into not spending at all.
After the January sales consumer spending has been rock bottom, manufacturing is limping along, construction has contracted, the banks still won't lend depsite Cameron repeatedly telling us he is dealing with them (as he did again in PMQ today), the economy hasn't gone anywhere in 6 months and all forecasts are for a bumpy ride. We lag way behind the likes of Germany and then you have to remember the cuts anonunced by the government haven't even started to take hold yet.
They need a slower less aggressive debt reduction strategy to let the economy stabilise and grow slowly but steadily while phasing in the debt reduction measures over a longer period of time.
And if they really want to save some money stop taking the easy road and address the hard issues like the bloated welfare state, illegal immigrants and asylum seekers who cost the country a fortune in so many ways, fighting wars we shouldn't be in, giving foreign aid to, in some cases,countries better off than us etc,
Thanks to the cuts, the VAT increase, the huge increase in fuel, food etc.the government harping on and on about how the coountry has been wrecked by Labour, the Middle East unrest and our involvement in it and Japan's Tsunami aftermath the public in the UK are basically being worried into not spending at all.
After the January sales consumer spending has been rock bottom, manufacturing is limping along, construction has contracted, the banks still won't lend depsite Cameron repeatedly telling us he is dealing with them (as he did again in PMQ today), the economy hasn't gone anywhere in 6 months and all forecasts are for a bumpy ride. We lag way behind the likes of Germany and then you have to remember the cuts anonunced by the government haven't even started to take hold yet.
They need a slower less aggressive debt reduction strategy to let the economy stabilise and grow slowly but steadily while phasing in the debt reduction measures over a longer period of time.
And if they really want to save some money stop taking the easy road and address the hard issues like the bloated welfare state, illegal immigrants and asylum seekers who cost the country a fortune in so many ways, fighting wars we shouldn't be in, giving foreign aid to, in some cases,countries better off than us etc,
I'll answer your question. I think the economy will be slightly better in 12 months' time, but the man in the street will feel slightly worse off as the latter tends to lag (hence people are feeling the pain now from a recession that started Summer 08).
However, the problems about rising commodity prices are only in part the UK government's fault - the bit linked to exchange rates. Why is Sterling not great? Because of the national debt and continuing deficit. Like it or not, and there are no easy answers other than to moan you don't like it, that has to be sorted.
To be clear, there is a difference between deficit reduction and debt reduction (which I'm sure you know, but not all readers on here will). Whilst there continues to be a deficit, the debt will continue to increase. The politicians of all flavours have only argued about a relatively minor change in how quickly they think the deficit should be tackled - that still doesn't even begin to tackle our national debt. It would be easy to assume inflation can help but no sensible economy has ever managed to use inflation as its saviour, and in our case >50% of the national debt is in overseas currencies anyway so it wouldn't work.
I agree with much of what's in your last paragraph - the only thing I'd say is that all of the initiatives (some of which are being explored) take years. As with a large corporate turnaround, which this effectively is, the results come through over time; there are no short term fixes.
Gordo
28 April 2011, 01:40 PM
#35
I love comments like this. No recognition of a global recession and of course you will to be one of those hundreds of thousands of people who claim that they said all along Brown was making a mess of the economy despite the fact that no one seemed to say anything of the sort before 2007 
Horrific 13 years???? LOL! They were in many ways a very poor government (although no worse than the previous one), but I would hardly call their term in office horrific! If a person was wise they could have made secure their future in the 10 years from 1997 - 2007 thanks to the steadily growing and stable economy provided by a Labour government (how that must grate with some people
).
Whether you think it was all built on a house of cards or not (and in my opinion the truth lies somewhere in the middle ground) there was a decade there where it was possoble to have made the rest of your life very comfortable.... the trouble was people thought it would last forever so borrowed and borrowed some more living way beyond their means in many ways .... it all comes crashing down and they take zero responsibility for their own actions. Mind you even that is down to the government's nanny state attitude in some ways.
I think people fiorget what the country was like in the 70s ad 80s .... despite the recent recession etc. we enjoy a much higher standard of living than we did even 20 years ago. Horrific??? I think not!
Horrific 13 years???? LOL! They were in many ways a very poor government (although no worse than the previous one), but I would hardly call their term in office horrific! If a person was wise they could have made secure their future in the 10 years from 1997 - 2007 thanks to the steadily growing and stable economy provided by a Labour government (how that must grate with some people
). Whether you think it was all built on a house of cards or not (and in my opinion the truth lies somewhere in the middle ground) there was a decade there where it was possoble to have made the rest of your life very comfortable.... the trouble was people thought it would last forever so borrowed and borrowed some more living way beyond their means in many ways .... it all comes crashing down and they take zero responsibility for their own actions. Mind you even that is down to the government's nanny state attitude in some ways.
I think people fiorget what the country was like in the 70s ad 80s .... despite the recent recession etc. we enjoy a much higher standard of living than we did even 20 years ago. Horrific??? I think not!
I'm sorry, but whichever way you look at it, either in terms of managing the economy or properly regulating the banking system, Brown and Blair have proven once again that the country is not safe with Labour at the helm.
28 April 2011, 02:22 PM
#36
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Thread Starter
I agree with a lot of what you say there, but I just think that we don't realiase how good we have still got it. As Les has said several times when real austerity hits if it ever does we will get a rather large shock.
I am not saying that in a 'weren't Labour great ' sort of a way, but just that despite them we still have a reasonably good standard of living (on average).
I don't think that Labour will get voted in at the next election unless Cameron does something very silly in the next 4 years and to be honest I think the Conservatives (if they stand on their own) will pick up a lot of votes from disaffected Lib Dems and will probably get a majoirty government. The linering memory of Brown's term as PM will haunt the Labour PArty for many years to come and Ed Milliband is not the man to take them forward long term I don't think.
Sadly though I disagree with you on Cameron and Osbourne being true Conservatives. I think those days are gone from all political parties and it is now about doing enough to get themselves elected rather than really having the courage of their convictions. Career politicians first, everything else second
I am not saying that in a 'weren't Labour great ' sort of a way, but just that despite them we still have a reasonably good standard of living (on average).
I don't think that Labour will get voted in at the next election unless Cameron does something very silly in the next 4 years and to be honest I think the Conservatives (if they stand on their own) will pick up a lot of votes from disaffected Lib Dems and will probably get a majoirty government. The linering memory of Brown's term as PM will haunt the Labour PArty for many years to come and Ed Milliband is not the man to take them forward long term I don't think.
Sadly though I disagree with you on Cameron and Osbourne being true Conservatives. I think those days are gone from all political parties and it is now about doing enough to get themselves elected rather than really having the courage of their convictions. Career politicians first, everything else second
I agree with the bolded statement and that's basically my point. We do have it quite good but we are all going to have to make readjustments. We all need to come to terms with the fact that we aren't going to have it quite so good anymore, still better than 75% (made up number!
) of people living on the planet though.All groups are moaning though that it mustn't be them that has to make the sacrifice ie teachers, students, policemen, doctors, nurses, single parents, working parents, the unemployed, the first time home buyer, the retiree, the disabled, the car owner, the importer, the exporter etc etc
Everybody wants it to be somebody else but not them that makes a readjustment. As a result just about everybody seems to be having a go, and it is under this relentless daily pressure I say that I appreciate the strength of Cameron and Osborne's character if the see this through.
Because imho there is no other way, there is no Plan B. It is also irresponsible of Labour to try and suggest there is a real drastically different way to resolve this.
30 April 2011, 12:33 PM
#37
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You're forgetting one of Gordo's favourite mantras - "No more boom and bust". Why would people bother putting money aside if this was the message from the government. Also, remember Gordo's Golden Rule - a balanced budget over the economic cycle. So how come we were running a deficit of more than 2% of GDP at the peak of the cycle?
I'm sorry, but whichever way you look at it, either in terms of managing the economy or properly regulating the banking system, Brown and Blair have proven once again that the country is not safe with Labour at the helm.
I'm sorry, but whichever way you look at it, either in terms of managing the economy or properly regulating the banking system, Brown and Blair have proven once again that the country is not safe with Labour at the helm.
Les
30 April 2011, 02:18 PM
#38
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I agree with the bolded statement and that's basically my point. We do have it quite good but we are all going to have to make readjustments. We all need to come to terms with the fact that we aren't going to have it quite so good anymore, still better than 75% (made up number!) of people living on the planet though.
All groups are moaning though that it mustn't be them that has to make the sacrifice ie teachers, students, policemen, doctors, nurses, single parents, working parents, the unemployed, the first time home buyer, the retiree, the disabled, the car owner, the importer, the exporter etc etc
Everybody wants it to be somebody else but not them that makes a readjustment. As a result just about everybody seems to be having a go, and it is under this relentless daily pressure I say that I appreciate the strength of Cameron and Osborne's character if the see this through.
Because imho there is no other way, there is no Plan B. It is also irresponsible of Labour to try and suggest there is a real drastically different way to resolve this.
) of people living on the planet though.All groups are moaning though that it mustn't be them that has to make the sacrifice ie teachers, students, policemen, doctors, nurses, single parents, working parents, the unemployed, the first time home buyer, the retiree, the disabled, the car owner, the importer, the exporter etc etc
Everybody wants it to be somebody else but not them that makes a readjustment. As a result just about everybody seems to be having a go, and it is under this relentless daily pressure I say that I appreciate the strength of Cameron and Osborne's character if the see this through.
Because imho there is no other way, there is no Plan B. It is also irresponsible of Labour to try and suggest there is a real drastically different way to resolve this.
Thing is as soon as say I (a Conservative) debate anything with a Labourite, it goes straight back to Thatcher, not the mess we're in now. Why? I'd suggest because deep down they know what has happened with the wasting of monies, this, that and the other BUT won't admit it.
Best thing was, and this really set my mind against Labour and their policies, was when I was threatened recently by a Labour councillor for ripping up a posted Labour leaflet and throwing in the bin
"You wouldn't do that if my big hard boyfriend had posted it"... Er, actually I would because it was a means of silent protest against the shower which is Labour run Scunthorpe 
Sorry, rant over - excellent post as said
30 April 2011, 03:12 PM
#39
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Cut overseas aid to zero for 5 years.
Cut EU budget by 50% for 5 years.
Cut housing benefit to private landlords by 50%.
Maximum of 12 months unemployment benefit.
Compulsory tests for incapcacity benefit.
Cut fuel duty by 50%
Double MP's pay but pay no expenses.
Give go ahead for 3rd runway at Heathrow
and 2nd at Stansted to create '000's of new jobs.
Scrap HST and save £17 billion.
Scrap the 2 carriers and fund the armed forces
properly.
Scrap all tax below 15k, 22% between 15 and 50k. earnings above 50k pay 50%.
Remove the farce that is national insurance.
Scrap the Trident replacement.
Cut EU budget by 50% for 5 years.
Cut housing benefit to private landlords by 50%.
Maximum of 12 months unemployment benefit.
Compulsory tests for incapcacity benefit.
Cut fuel duty by 50%
Double MP's pay but pay no expenses.
Give go ahead for 3rd runway at Heathrow
and 2nd at Stansted to create '000's of new jobs.
Scrap HST and save £17 billion.
Scrap the 2 carriers and fund the armed forces
properly.
Scrap all tax below 15k, 22% between 15 and 50k. earnings above 50k pay 50%.
Remove the farce that is national insurance.
Scrap the Trident replacement.
30 April 2011, 03:33 PM
#40
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...googlenews_wsj
It takes a lot of strength of character to continue with what one knows is
right in the face of continual attack from all sides.
Just about everybody wants to have a dig. Labour use it for cheap political points, when deep down they know they caused most of this.
All vested interest groups complain that their standard of living will be affected. They agree something should be done but just so long as it doesn't affect them.
Well if we don't cut the deficit quickly we could face this sort of danger as well, and then interest rates could rocket.
I'd like to see how all the people out there complaining about pensions, family credit and student fees would cope if their mortgage rate suddenly shot up. A lot of them would be homeless I suspect.
For all their faults and mistakes lets take a few moments to thank our lucky stars that the Conservatives are in charge so that Labour can't bankrupt the country further
It takes a lot of strength of character to continue with what one knows is
right in the face of continual attack from all sides.
Just about everybody wants to have a dig. Labour use it for cheap political points, when deep down they know they caused most of this.
All vested interest groups complain that their standard of living will be affected. They agree something should be done but just so long as it doesn't affect them.
Well if we don't cut the deficit quickly we could face this sort of danger as well, and then interest rates could rocket.
I'd like to see how all the people out there complaining about pensions, family credit and student fees would cope if their mortgage rate suddenly shot up. A lot of them would be homeless I suspect.
For all their faults and mistakes lets take a few moments to thank our lucky stars that the Conservatives are in charge so that Labour can't bankrupt the country further
30 April 2011, 04:48 PM
#41
they could solve a lot of this countries problems in a few moves
1 close our borders now end of (no more oxygen thieves)
2 send home anyone not legally entitled to be here
3 get the *** out of the eu
4 stop sponsoring countries better off than us
5 stop oxygen thieves breeding cash 4 kids (if you cant pay for them dont have them and expect the taxpayer to pay for them for you)
6 cancel allways of tax avoidance (peter green 240million cos wife owns companies and lives in monoco etc)
7 stop companies relying on ctc and make them pay a real wage (i get allmost as much ctc as i do wages ie uk goverment is sponsering brammer to employ me )
radical moves maybe but the time for mamby pambying around is almost at a end at the moment unless you are on silly money it isnt worth working , oxygen thieves with kids are better off than people who are working
a few proven facts
a working couple on 24grand a year with 2kids are only £4 A WEEK BETTER OFF THAN A SINGLE MUM ON THE DOLE
A MARRIED WORKING COUPLE ON 50GRAND A YEAR ARE BETTER OFF SPLITTING UP AND HAVING 1KID EACH the mum leaving and getting a council/housing platform . thats the mess labours anti family policy has left us in
and now cameron and his donkies are trying to make amends everyone is moaning about cuts here cuts there . only problem is the cuts are in spending and not true costs 12345
1 close our borders now end of (no more oxygen thieves)
2 send home anyone not legally entitled to be here
3 get the *** out of the eu
4 stop sponsoring countries better off than us
5 stop oxygen thieves breeding cash 4 kids (if you cant pay for them dont have them and expect the taxpayer to pay for them for you)
6 cancel allways of tax avoidance (peter green 240million cos wife owns companies and lives in monoco etc)
7 stop companies relying on ctc and make them pay a real wage (i get allmost as much ctc as i do wages ie uk goverment is sponsering brammer to employ me )
radical moves maybe but the time for mamby pambying around is almost at a end at the moment unless you are on silly money it isnt worth working , oxygen thieves with kids are better off than people who are working
a few proven facts
a working couple on 24grand a year with 2kids are only £4 A WEEK BETTER OFF THAN A SINGLE MUM ON THE DOLE
A MARRIED WORKING COUPLE ON 50GRAND A YEAR ARE BETTER OFF SPLITTING UP AND HAVING 1KID EACH the mum leaving and getting a council/housing platform . thats the mess labours anti family policy has left us in
and now cameron and his donkies are trying to make amends everyone is moaning about cuts here cuts there . only problem is the cuts are in spending and not true costs 12345
30 April 2011, 05:55 PM
#43
i forgot the space lol and forgot its phillip not peter makes no difference it still isnt right tax avoidance/tax evasion its all they same in my book , the rich are all at it including cameron and all his cronies . the latest one is property bought in a company name then when sold at a profit no capital gains tax is paid
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