tony de wonderful

...and you have what evidence?

Iranian state TV?

AsifScoob

No I am not, but Tony doesn't know that. I have stated on here more than once exactly what I am, which is a lapsed Muslim. You know what though? I haven't been stoned to death for that crime!!

AsifScoob

Sorry Tony, but the ENTIRE responsibility lies with the forced creation of the State of Israel - and NOTHING else. The evidence being that Islamist extremism, or whatever you wish to call it, simply didn't exist before then.

As for your volume being the only evidence, I have asked you already to explain yourself. Why don't you? Then I will reassess my opinion of you. If you care? If you don't care then I will stick to the evidence available to me.

And why don't you actually try to answer some points instead of simply changing the subject, as you do with all your other posts? Something to hide I reckon.

AsifScoob

Do you really think a respected journalist would make a one hour Despatches documentary to say that there are lobbyists in Westminster?

For the last time, look it up and see for yourself. All the evidence for what I say is there for you to see, but I think you are in denial, so you don't want to go and shatter the 'truth' that you hold in your mind.

Remember, all your SN friends can see you refusing to acknowledge that the truth might be different to what you hold dear and you don't seem able to deal with it.

AsifScoob

As I have already said, it was from the former British Ambassador to Tehran. If you can provide some proof as to why his word is untrustworthy I will listen, otherwise, in my humble opinion, I say he knows more about the situation than you do. And he says it was Mossad. End of.

RA Dunk

Jeez, You two at it again? you love one another really...........not!

tony de wonderful

It didn't exist before rock music, did rock music cause Islamism?

Anyway modern Islamism goes back before WW2 with the founding of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1920's. You have all sort of things going on which is effecting the Muslim world in the 20th century, you have movements in India etc eventually leading to the birth of Pakistan...the fall of the last Caliphate; the Ottoman Empire...you have the decline of western Imperialism, the birth of the Arab states, economic stagnation, then rapid population growth, oil wealth, societies being massively changed by that very rapidly, globalisation etc, Capitalism...all this a huge dymanic force in the Muslim (or at least Arab) world effecting politics, economics etc. Massively bottom heavy populations with old elites inhibiting political and economic plurality.

Blaming everything on Israel is not only fallacious but stupid, too easy to blame the muslim world problems on nefarious outside interests or Israel...one demon of another....it paralyses the Islamic world thoughts and inhibits real solutions.

It's like blame the Devil....

AsifScoob

Sorry! Going to bed now. Am WFH tomorrow so might be at it all day! I only do this once a year or so, then disappear off again!

Goodnight! (And to you Tony!)

RA Dunk

Don't apologize and don't go to bed, I like to see Tony being kept on his toes.

tony de wonderful

Like I said, he says it, so it must be true right?

AsifScoob

Tony,

That is genuinely really interesting, but doesn't change anything today. Palestinians in their prisons, err I mean refugee camps, don't give a stuff, IMO, for the Muslim Brotherhood of the 1920's.

Islam is given, like other similar organisations, to create associations, for whatever reasons.

I however, am slightly closer to this than you, I think. I can tell you, as far as every Muslim is concerned, the injustice meted out to the Palestinians, by Israel, is the single biggest problem in the World today.

As far as I am concerned, all of our current issues stem from this. And that's it.

Whether they are right or not may be a matter of opinion, but that is what they think and it is not going to change. I for one am firmly of this opinion. However, I also think it provides the biggest single opportunity for peace in the World, which is what we all want, isn't it?

That is, except those people on certain threads, who say "kill them all" and other witty gems. You wouldn't say anything like that would you Tony?

AsifScoob

I never said it must be true, but please tell me why what you say is more true? I will believe you if you say you are the current UK Ambassador to Tehran, fair enough? Otherwise the senior diplomat who has spent years in the country knows more than you.

It seems when you are wrong all you can respond with is petulance.

tony de wonderful

You realise you're whole argument is an appeal to authority fallacy?

AsifScoob

LOL! No, have to go now, still got to be up early! Got to help with the child and have an early morning conf call with Hong Kong! Damn! They will be in the office already!!

AsifScoob

Sorry Tony, could you do that one in English please? Better still, why not simply answer the point without changing the subject. Goodnight.

tony de wonderful

I don't know? Perhaps we should have some Palestinians here instead of those who pretend to speak for them?

Why are many of these Palestinians still in Camps anyway? The British set up a Partition originally, they never planned to put Palestinians into Camps.

The fact is many Arab states CHOOSE to keep them locked up instead of resettling them.

Yes I agree, but it does not make those associations based on anything more than ideology or more specifically political convenience. You need to look at the truth beneath the words. Ideology is not truth. If you listen to Communists then the working class have a solidarity. ***** say Aryans do. But in Russia a ruling elite lorded over their fellow proletariat and ruled them. The ***** used fellow Aryans as cannon fodder; kids on bikes against tanks.

If Islamic solidarity is 'truth' then why are these same Muslims not outraged and taking action against muslims killing muslims in Iraq? Why has there been sectarian and civil wars within Islam?

If you are Palestinian then yes, otherwise no.

Please get some perspective, the world is full of injustice. Most you don't hear about because its cause is unfashionable.

tony de wonderful

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

I'm pointing out a fault in your logic.

tony de wonderful

I'm not sure what 'truth' you think I hold dear? I achknowledge there is an Israeli lobby, but there is also a Palestinian lobby, a vegetarian lobby, and a lobby for x,y and z.

Yes the Israeli lobby have some influence but this idea that they somehow manipulate British and American foreign policy like some illuminate is rubbish, it's more paranoia from the Arab world, more scapegoating, more hand wringing....as if the way Israel defeated the Arab states' armies was somehow unfair and only because of their omnipotent foreign support.

Like I said it paralyses the thought-process and is stopping solutions being found and peace. The Arab world needs to move fwd. For you peace will be found when Israel is destroyed....maybe so, but at the cost of many dead and ruined lives. Who's the ruthless one?

Jamie

AsifScoob

But that is exactly what the documentary proved, so what you are saying is PROVEN to be rubbish. You have not bothered to look it up and choose to remain in ignorance, because you are an ignoramus.

Look it up and watch it first before making any more comment about it. I have told you where to obtain some objective facts and you choose not to avail yourself.

I will make no more comment on this until you can demonstrate that you have seen what I am talking about before making any more comment on it. How you can make comments on things you know nothing about belies an unbelieveable arrogance and yet even more stupidity.

AsifScoob

'twas a light hearted comment James. I know I am not an apostate, but I do have my doubts.

AsifScoob

Please double check all of yours. I reckon will take you quite a long time. Your arguements are all over the place. You have not answered any points as far as I can see, but simply go off at random, picking out one line here and there, out of context, and make some irrelevant comment, or excessively argumentative point about some other nonsensical issue.

And you call this debate? I call it a mindless arguement.

I have made my points, well and clear, you have failed to answer any of them as far as I am concerned.

I am not going to argue forever, but you no doubt will continue to post up idiotic, inflammatory, threads which contribute nothing to SN whatsoever.

Good luck mate.

tony de wonderful

Proven what?

Don't type that I need to watch the video; do some work yourself.

Stop appealing to authority.

I watched a video on the internet once which said we were run by lizard people; must be true then?

What key foreign policy decisions have been manipulated by this Cabal then? Don't other lobby groups have influence? What is it about Jews which makes then so well able to manipulate western government?

tony de wonderful

Basically you don't have a leg to stand on claiming that mossad was behind it, save some fallacious argument that just because an ex-ambassador says so it must be true.

If that is not a mindless argument then I don't know what is?

You WANT mossad to be behind it.

AsifScoob

This is another stupid comment Tony, so I cannot comment on a subject unless I am one of the people I am talking about? When was I pretending anyway? This therefore makes you one of those **** Zionists then? As you can do nothing else but justify their murder, oppression, and the fact they they are the single biggest threat to the World today?

Listen to yourself, the British put people in camps? So this statement makes it all ok doesn't it? Typical ****, Zionist comment, blame others.

This is actually an interesting point, but for another thread.


So again I have to be Palestinian?? You are so stupid. I have asked you to reveal your 'identity', what your allegiances are and so on, but you won't will you?


I can forgive you this, as I don't expect you to understand. Central to Islam is the principle of justice and it is very strong. Injustice needs to be challenged and corrected, this will not change.

AsifScoob

So how do you KNOW that they aren't?

AsifScoob

LOL Tony! Please switch away from your **** Zionist websites and check something else out. I don't need to go and find it, I have already seen it. It wasn't some Youtube homemade affair, it was a Channel 4 Despatches program, made by Peter Oborne, a respected Daily Telegraph Journalist. I have said this many times now. Not again.

Remain in ignorance Tony!

JTaylor

Maybe, but it was delivered in a way that would cast doubt over the apostasy 'laws'.

The other point that's baffled me is that you were suprised that Tony hadn't considered that you may be Jewish. You've stated that you are a born Muslim, why would he think you were Jewish? Nuturei Karta would have been far fetched.

Apart from that, good exchange and it's good to see a tussle between two armed men. Let's hope that the morons can stay off the thread and that if they do appear, our capable mods moderate them and don't simply close the whole thread only for it to resurface again.

tony de wonderful

I'm just saying it would be nice to hear from some Palestinians instead of those who claim to speak for them.

Your last statement is crazy BTW. Judaism does not recruit, does not expand, how can it 'threaten' world peace?

Sure you blame Israel, but who attacked the nascent Jewish state and displaced the refugees?

Sure because it is 100% irrelevant to my arguments, you otoh sought to establish credibility by saying you were 'close' which is looking like 100% nonsense.

Sure I said it was ideological, but also that ideology is not truth. Who is challenging the sectarian killers in Iraq for example? Why is it YOUR job to challenge 'injustice' and please give an honest answer not appealing to some abstract ideology.

You're manifesto for 'justice' sounds like a tyranny, think what power must be required to correct world 'injustice' and it is probably more terrifying than the injustice itself.

Like I said there is lots of injustice in the world, so why this mono-mania with the Palestinians? What about the genocide in Sudan, the execution of gays in Iran and Afghanistan, the people of Nepal, the people of Tibet, how about North Koreans, the plight of native Americans, persecution of Kurds in Turkey, armenians, the plight of starving Africans, civil wars in Africa, rape of women and children etc, exploitation of child labour in asian sweatshops?

tony de wonderful

Stop appealing to authority.

.