382.8bhp from a VF35 :)
12 October 2010, 09:02 PM
#302
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You lot make me laugh, my odds are on somewhere between 370 and 380, I say this because if the power @ 1.4 Bar was 380 with an incorrect IT of 40+ deg, (corrected say roughly 360bhp) I still had roughly 0.1bar left in the tank and a mere 4% boost duty change made 10+bhp on the last run, a 370+ bhp run seems in the bag to be honest. I will not keep you waiting the run is booked for 4pm tomorrow the figures will be posted live from the rollers 
All winnings to your favourite local charity please
Cheers Iain
All winnings to your favourite local charity please
Cheers Iain
so thats my £50 down the drain. Putting my money to Help for heroes if thats the case
12 October 2010, 09:04 PM
#303
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12 October 2010, 09:18 PM
#304
12 October 2010, 09:22 PM
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RPM vs Boost pressure will be different between cars due to different setups etc (eg Choice of boost control, Pre and Post turbo exhaust choice, turbo intake pipe diameter and overall charge system volume inc intercooler + pipework and intake manifold.)
Cheers Iain
12 October 2010, 10:21 PM
#306
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mods: 2.0 bug sti 102k miles, vf48, 650cc injectors, front mount, 3" turbo back exhaust, walbro fuel pump.
below on straight v power
and a play with some methanol.. bugeye heads dont seem to respond aswell
torque is up though
Last edited by eggy790; 12 October 2010 at 10:33 PM.
12 October 2010, 10:50 PM
#307
You lot make me laugh, my odds are on somewhere between 370 and 380, I say this because if the power @ 1.4 Bar was 380 with an incorrect IT of 40+ deg, (corrected say roughly 360bhp) I still had roughly 0.1bar left in the tank and a mere 4% boost duty change made 10+bhp on the last run, a 370+ bhp run seems in the bag to be honest. I will not keep you waiting the run is booked for 4pm tomorrow the figures will be posted live from the rollers
All winnings to your favourite local charity please
Cheers Iain
All winnings to your favourite local charity please
Cheers Iain
Surely if you want to contribute to Subaru tuning you have a responsibility to ensure the results you publish are accurate and if you don't know enough to do that surely it would be sensible to ask questions and increase your knowledge so that you understand the concerns expressed by a number of knowledgeable people on this thread.
Somewhere earlier you came out with a statement to the effect that the rolling road could not be inaccurate by 30 bhp or some similar figure. Sorry but that is very possible when the data used to calculate your result is very inaccurate as the information you have published clearly is and instead of defending yourself and destroying your credibility it would have been sensible to make enquiries, broaden your knowledge and learn from the experience.
Just as an aside I have a particular car that did 421 or 420 bhp at TEG Sport on Dyno Dynamics and subsequently the same car did 422 bhp on Dyno Dynamics on a particular Thursday. By the sheer misfortune of Karl Benny spectacularly blowing his cylinder head gasket the following Sunday, I was asked to go to the Motoscope rolling road day to arrange recovery of his car. My vehicle was put on the rollers at the end of the rolling road day, Dastek, and produced 448 bhp. Now I can also tell you on these same rollers you get a different result in 3rd gear than you get in 4th gear and I do not use these rollers because to do the kind of work you are alleging to do you need accurate and repeatable information on which to base your conclusions.
It is a great pity you did not use this opportunity to gain knowledge instead of crowing about 382 bhp and ignoring the blatant flaws in your rolling road run.
No doubt if you run at Subaru4U tomorrow they will give you the run for free to make up for the erroneous data on which your 382 bhp figure is based.
12 October 2010, 11:01 PM
#309
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You continue to beat the drum about 382 bhp at 1.4 bar on road fuel with your engine spec and VF35 with a ported wastegate (which is no big deal)and an uprated actuator. As long ago as last Friday or Saturday and several times since then various people including Martin Jeffrey, a Dyno Dynamics Rolling Road operator, Paul Blamire, a Dastek Rolling Road owner, Shaun, Butty, and others have alerted you to this folly. Obviously you do not know how the rolling road operates and despite several suggestions from me that you ask Len at Subaru4U to give you the offset figure, you don't appear to have done that or understood the implications. It must be concerning for Subaru4U to have given you a 382 bhp figure based on AT 14 and IT 42 that has received such prominance.
Surely if you want to contribute to Subaru tuning you have a responsibility to ensure the results you publish are accurate and if you don't know enough to do that surely it would be sensible to ask questions and increase your knowledge so that you understand the concerns expressed by a number of knowledgeable people on this thread.
Somewhere earlier you came out with a statement to the effect that the rolling road could not be inaccurate by 30 bhp or some similar figure. Sorry but that is very possible when the data used to calculate your result is very inaccurate as the information you have published clearly is and instead of defending yourself and destroying your credibility it would have been sensible to make enquiries, broaden your knowledge and learn from the experience.
Just as an aside I have a particular car that did 421 or 420 bhp at TEG Sport on Dyno Dynamics and subsequently the same car did 422 bhp on Dyno Dynamics on a particular Thursday. By the sheer misfortune of Karl Benny spectacularly blowing his cylinder head gasket the following Sunday, I was asked to go to the Motoscope rolling road day to arrange recovery of his car. My vehicle was put on the rollers at the end of the rolling road day, Dastek, and produced 448 bhp. Now I can also tell you on these same rollers you get a different result in 3rd gear than you get in 4th gear and I do not use these rollers because to do the kind of work you are alleging to do you need accurate and repeatable information on which to base your conclusions.
It is a great pity you did not use this opportunity to gain knowledge instead of crowing about 382 bhp and ignoring the blatant flaws in your rolling road run.
No doubt if you run at Subaru4U tomorrow they will give you the run for free to make up for the erroneous data on which your 382 bhp figure is based.
Surely if you want to contribute to Subaru tuning you have a responsibility to ensure the results you publish are accurate and if you don't know enough to do that surely it would be sensible to ask questions and increase your knowledge so that you understand the concerns expressed by a number of knowledgeable people on this thread.
Somewhere earlier you came out with a statement to the effect that the rolling road could not be inaccurate by 30 bhp or some similar figure. Sorry but that is very possible when the data used to calculate your result is very inaccurate as the information you have published clearly is and instead of defending yourself and destroying your credibility it would have been sensible to make enquiries, broaden your knowledge and learn from the experience.
Just as an aside I have a particular car that did 421 or 420 bhp at TEG Sport on Dyno Dynamics and subsequently the same car did 422 bhp on Dyno Dynamics on a particular Thursday. By the sheer misfortune of Karl Benny spectacularly blowing his cylinder head gasket the following Sunday, I was asked to go to the Motoscope rolling road day to arrange recovery of his car. My vehicle was put on the rollers at the end of the rolling road day, Dastek, and produced 448 bhp. Now I can also tell you on these same rollers you get a different result in 3rd gear than you get in 4th gear and I do not use these rollers because to do the kind of work you are alleging to do you need accurate and repeatable information on which to base your conclusions.
It is a great pity you did not use this opportunity to gain knowledge instead of crowing about 382 bhp and ignoring the blatant flaws in your rolling road run.
No doubt if you run at Subaru4U tomorrow they will give you the run for free to make up for the erroneous data on which your 382 bhp figure is based.
So if the RR that has been book for tomorrow produces the same power figure yet all Paramaters are correct you will still insist that 382.8bhp isn't possible from Iains car? Even if it was to produce between 378 and 384bhp for example? wether is be the same place or different
I wonder what response u would give if he made 400bhp on this next run!!!!
Last edited by Lewak; 12 October 2010 at 11:02 PM.
12 October 2010, 11:21 PM
#310
3 years ago my local Japanese car club held a RR day at Triton Motorsort (DD rollers)down here in Dorset. On the day cars made stupidly over inflated results including my totally stock UK Bugeye, which made 234bhp!
Other cars included, a single turbo legacy with a TD04 made 303bhp@1bar, 1993 WRX with stock 380cc injectors, FMIC and a chipped ECU made 346bhp...A friends UK classic which on 2 other occassions made a proven 278bhp made 305bhp.
Also in the mix were a few Nissan 200sx's running differnet stages of tune that were also well over what their spec should of allowed....The debate about the day went on for many weeks with some people thinking because it was there in black and white it was correct.
Here is a plot from my run, you can clearly see the difference between AT and IT.
Other cars included, a single turbo legacy with a TD04 made 303bhp@1bar, 1993 WRX with stock 380cc injectors, FMIC and a chipped ECU made 346bhp...A friends UK classic which on 2 other occassions made a proven 278bhp made 305bhp.
Also in the mix were a few Nissan 200sx's running differnet stages of tune that were also well over what their spec should of allowed....The debate about the day went on for many weeks with some people thinking because it was there in black and white it was correct.
Here is a plot from my run, you can clearly see the difference between AT and IT.
12 October 2010, 11:31 PM
#311
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Triton didnt have a clue how to use their rollers when i had my modded Type R it made (according to the rollers) 323 bhp running a 20G at 1.7 bar,fmic,550cc injectors,gruppe s v2 manifold,3" turbo back exhaust,uprated actuator etc etc yadda yadda basically about as much as you could add to standard internals.Bottom line is no RR is accurate it just gives you a ball park figure but this figure does depend on whether the rollers have been set up correctly in the first place.
On a different tangent,what i have noticed on here is that if you get a higher figure than someone else with similar mods your figures will always be thrown into doubt.I think they call it politics of envy
good luck with your re run
On a different tangent,what i have noticed on here is that if you get a higher figure than someone else with similar mods your figures will always be thrown into doubt.I think they call it politics of envy
good luck with your re run
12 October 2010, 11:34 PM
#312
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You continue to beat the drum about 382 bhp at 1.4 bar on road fuel with your engine spec and VF35 with a ported wastegate (which is no big deal)and an uprated actuator. As long ago as last Friday or Saturday and several times since then various people including Martin Jeffrey, a Dyno Dynamics Rolling Road operator, Paul Blamire, a Dastek Rolling Road owner, Shaun, Butty, and others have alerted you to this folly. Obviously you do not know how the rolling road operates and despite several suggestions from me that you ask Len at Subaru4U to give you the offset figure, you don't appear to have done that or understood the implications. It must be concerning for Subaru4U to have given you a 382 bhp figure based on AT 14 and IT 42 that has received such prominance.
Surely if you want to contribute to Subaru tuning you have a responsibility to ensure the results you publish are accurate and if you don't know enough to do that surely it would be sensible to ask questions and increase your knowledge so that you understand the concerns expressed by a number of knowledgeable people on this thread.
Somewhere earlier you came out with a statement to the effect that the rolling road could not be inaccurate by 30 bhp or some similar figure. Sorry but that is very possible when the data used to calculate your result is very inaccurate as the information you have published clearly is and instead of defending yourself and destroying your credibility it would have been sensible to make enquiries, broaden your knowledge and learn from the experience.
Just as an aside I have a particular car that did 421 or 420 bhp at TEG Sport on Dyno Dynamics and subsequently the same car did 422 bhp on Dyno Dynamics on a particular Thursday. By the sheer misfortune of Karl Benny spectacularly blowing his cylinder head gasket the following Sunday, I was asked to go to the Motoscope rolling road day to arrange recovery of his car. My vehicle was put on the rollers at the end of the rolling road day, Dastek, and produced 448 bhp. Now I can also tell you on these same rollers you get a different result in 3rd gear than you get in 4th gear and I do not use these rollers because to do the kind of work you are alleging to do you need accurate and repeatable information on which to base your conclusions.
It is a great pity you did not use this opportunity to gain knowledge instead of crowing about 382 bhp and ignoring the blatant flaws in your rolling road run.
No doubt if you run at Subaru4U tomorrow they will give you the run for free to make up for the erroneous data on which your 382 bhp figure is based.
Surely if you want to contribute to Subaru tuning you have a responsibility to ensure the results you publish are accurate and if you don't know enough to do that surely it would be sensible to ask questions and increase your knowledge so that you understand the concerns expressed by a number of knowledgeable people on this thread.
Somewhere earlier you came out with a statement to the effect that the rolling road could not be inaccurate by 30 bhp or some similar figure. Sorry but that is very possible when the data used to calculate your result is very inaccurate as the information you have published clearly is and instead of defending yourself and destroying your credibility it would have been sensible to make enquiries, broaden your knowledge and learn from the experience.
Just as an aside I have a particular car that did 421 or 420 bhp at TEG Sport on Dyno Dynamics and subsequently the same car did 422 bhp on Dyno Dynamics on a particular Thursday. By the sheer misfortune of Karl Benny spectacularly blowing his cylinder head gasket the following Sunday, I was asked to go to the Motoscope rolling road day to arrange recovery of his car. My vehicle was put on the rollers at the end of the rolling road day, Dastek, and produced 448 bhp. Now I can also tell you on these same rollers you get a different result in 3rd gear than you get in 4th gear and I do not use these rollers because to do the kind of work you are alleging to do you need accurate and repeatable information on which to base your conclusions.
It is a great pity you did not use this opportunity to gain knowledge instead of crowing about 382 bhp and ignoring the blatant flaws in your rolling road run.
No doubt if you run at Subaru4U tomorrow they will give you the run for free to make up for the erroneous data on which your 382 bhp figure is based.
No hard feelings but I am not conforming to your way of thinking (although I may read the books), what I have been doing does work and it works very well, if you dont like it then tough, the figures tomorrow should speak volumes. What did you expect me to do Harvey tuck my tail and run away?
Cheers Iain
12 October 2010, 11:43 PM
#314
Because the environmental conditions affect the power output of any engine, as I have explained previously, most rolling road manufacturers attempt to produce power figures in accordance with set standard conditions. This means that power figures are comparable regardless of the climatic conditions or altitude from which they are derived.
The objective is to produce results which can be compared from one dynomometer to another.
If you look at the bottom of the rolling road graph on here you will see the following:
BP 101.4. Standard pressure setting is 1013.2 MB. A pressure setting below 1013.2 will add power by way of a multiplier and a figure above will slightly reduce power.
RH This is relative humidity and I believe the standard is 60%. Above 60% and the power multiplier will increase the result and below 60% the power figure will be less.
AT This is the ambient temperature. The ambient temperature is the surrounding temperature and in this case the temperature within the dyno cell. The best the induction temeprature is ever likely to be is equal to ambient temperature. The standard temperature setting is 20 deg.C. Below 20 deg.C. power is reduced by the multiplier, above 20 deg.C power is added.
IT This is the temperature measured at the air inlet to the engine. In the case of a cone filter it is normal to tape the stainless steel sensor which looks like a long stainless steel rod in to one of the pleats on the filter. The intention is to measure the air temperature flowing in to the engine. It is normal for the IT to be within 1 or 2 degrees of AT and if there is a discrepancy of 5 degrees this is large and requires investigation. The IT temperature is fed back to the rolling road software. If the IT temperature is high relative to AT then the multiplier adds power to give the final figure.
Each Dyno Dynamics rollers is supplied with a weather station. This gives the barometric pressure, relative humidity and ambient temperature in the dyno cell or wherever it is placed.
This is how Dyno Dynamics do it with the intention of arriving at comparable figures.
The actual published figure from Dyno Dynamics available to all Dyno Dynamics rolling road users for compensating for temperature difference is 2.73% per 10 degrees of temperature. This is not my figure, this is Dyno Dynamics figure.
Now those used to using Dyno Dynamics rolling roads will accept that IT is usually 1 or 2 degrees above AT and indeed the graph published earlier on this thread for 669 bhp or some similar figure by JGM on S4U rollers shows a discrepancy of 3 degrees C. Applying that figure to the graph published by Big D we would have AT of 14 and IT of 17 and indeed Big D does confirm in previous posts that this was the type of discrepancy he has had on previous rolling road runs. If the figure is greater than 3 degrees there could be several reasons. An inefficient rolling road fan arrangement, a poor air inlet system or perhaps the probe dislodged during running on the rolling road and picking up engine bay temperature not inlet temperature.
From 17 degrees, (a fair guess at an IT on a day when ambient is 14), to 42 degrees is 25 degrees so from the published Dyno Dynamics information you would expect that 2.5 x 2.73% power has been added. 6.8%. So on that basis the 382.8 bhp figure on the graph in question is under 360 bhp.
Now earlier today a Dyno Dynamics operator who has been following this thread phoned to tell me they were watching with interest but they had conducted an experiment at lunchtime when the temperature reading was 13.2 C. which applied a correction factor of .972 to their equipment. The IT probe was then heated to 42 deg C and the correction factor was 1.043 so you will see in practice, dealing with the RH, BP, AT today and then increasing the probe temperature to 42 degrees we come up with a difference of 7.1%, not far off the theoretical 6.8% for temperature only.
Why the IT was shown at 42 C. on the RR printout in question, I do not know. It can be as simple as the probe detaching from the filter. It is also a way and I am not in any way suggesting it here, for operators to produce exaggerated results but for those of you that can follow the figures and understand the basic operation of a Dyno Dynamics rolling road it will be quite clear that while a 382.8 bhp figure was obtained with a 42 deg C IT, in reality power output was probably less than 360 bhp.
By adjusting the other figures, BP in particular, it is easy for the operator to influence the results one way or another if he so wishes.
Now there has been a lot of loose talk here from people without a sound grounding in what they are talking about. If you want a graph for a TD04 with 400 bhp that can be arranged or how about a TD05 20G at 500 bhp. Not a problem. If you want to deal in facts and genuine rolling road results do yourself a favour, learn how the rolling road works, learn how the figures are computed and then you may be able to contribute sensibly to discussions of this nature. In this way we can all improve, reliably, the cars we drive and our understanding. Nothing wrong with not knowing. Ask just as Tail Slider did. There are plenty people on here who can share all sorts of knowledge but if you want to believe the earth is flat you have nothing to contribute.
Finally, even 350 bhp from a VF35 is a great result so 360 bhp is pretty fantastic and at no time have I tried to belittle Big D's achievement but let us look at it accurately and honestly.
12 October 2010, 11:43 PM
#315
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Triton didnt have a clue how to use their rollers when i had my modded Type R it made (according to the rollers) 323 bhp running a 20G at 1.7 bar,fmic,550cc injectors,gruppe s v2 manifold,3" turbo back exhaust,uprated actuator etc etc yadda yadda basically about as much as you could add to standard internals.Bottom line is no RR is accurate it just gives you a ball park figure but this figure does depend on whether the rollers have been set up correctly in the first place.
On a different tangent,what i have noticed on here is that if you get a higher figure than someone else with similar mods your figures will always be thrown into doubt.I think they call it politics of envy
good luck with your re run
On a different tangent,what i have noticed on here is that if you get a higher figure than someone else with similar mods your figures will always be thrown into doubt.I think they call it politics of envy
good luck with your re run
I have never seen a thread quite like this one ever, roll on tomorrow
Cheers Iain
12 October 2010, 11:55 PM
#316
Big D: My first post on here was #154.
By then you had banged on about 382 bhp on false figures that are clearly way over your head and the reason for my posting was pretty clear.
I seem to recollect you were talking about a 10 sec. quarter and 400 bhp.
For your run to be comparable now you need to run on S4U rollers, 1.4 bar, road fuel but there are some big egos at stake now I see. Unfortunate. Also very unfortunate that you did not take the opportunity to get the correction factor when that was suggested as it would have saved all this crap.
Good Night.
By then you had banged on about 382 bhp on false figures that are clearly way over your head and the reason for my posting was pretty clear.
Porting the WG on a VF35 and fitting an uprated actuator does not turn it into a 380 bhp turbo and there are a lot of potentially very diappointed people out there if they actually believe that.
For your run to be comparable now you need to run on S4U rollers, 1.4 bar, road fuel but there are some big egos at stake now I see. Unfortunate. Also very unfortunate that you did not take the opportunity to get the correction factor when that was suggested as it would have saved all this crap.
Good Night.
Last edited by harvey; 12 October 2010 at 11:57 PM.
13 October 2010, 12:07 AM
#318
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So Harvey your saying based on your Calculations that. Iain is running more like 350 bhp? ? ? Well I must say that's an 11.8 second 1/4 mile car at 350bhp. Well done iain for that.
now I expect havery. Will say that's not possible
now I expect havery. Will say that's not possible
13 October 2010, 12:13 AM
#319
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For your run to be comparable now you need to run on S4U rollers, 1.4 bar, road fuel but there are some big egos at stake now I see. Unfortunate. Also very unfortunate that you did not take the opportunity to get the correction factor when that was suggested as it would have saved all this crap.
Good Night.
Good Night.
Harvey if I get 370bhp @ 1.5 Bar I will be a damn happy man tomorrow but to be honest I hope it runs a 390 (no harm in having dreams
), my ego is not at stake as I feel I have been very open and honest about everything so far, how the hell do you know what I have and have not done up to this point? Even if it fell off the rollers tomorrow I can hold my head high as I have only done what you have asked me to do, just dont burn my car tonight as I am quite looking forward to seeing the results tomorrow.Cheers Iain
13 October 2010, 12:59 AM
#321
Christ we are up to 11 pages now is this ever gonna end
.lol. I dont know s**t about I.T/A.T temps
,but i do know a lad who post on here who has a 576 bhp subaru who 2 weekends ago posted an 11.3 sec 1/4 mile run at stratford, and he was pleased as punch . If Iains car is on a vf35 and he's hitting 11.8 secs 1/4 mile runs then whatever he is doing aint that bad.
Cut the guy some slack will you ,he has taken up his own time and effort to try a few things that most of us if we had the knowledge and confidence to try would be doing it ourselves & they appear to be working. Either way he has a pretty well set up car imho.
.lol. I dont know s**t about I.T/A.T temps ,but i do know a lad who post on here who has a 576 bhp subaru who 2 weekends ago posted an 11.3 sec 1/4 mile run at stratford, and he was pleased as punch . If Iains car is on a vf35 and he's hitting 11.8 secs 1/4 mile runs then whatever he is doing aint that bad. Cut the guy some slack will you ,he has taken up his own time and effort to try a few things that most of us if we had the knowledge and confidence to try would be doing it ourselves & they appear to be working. Either way he has a pretty well set up car imho.
Last edited by midnight; 13 October 2010 at 01:02 AM.
13 October 2010, 04:52 AM
#322
Regarding the 1/4 mike times.. A guy has done those figures on 340bhp and he's posted on this thread so they're not proof of 380bhp!
Best of luck today but can't help thinking you've gone about this wrong. I'd have probably got another RR session somewhere else as back up before being so confident.
Best of luck today but can't help thinking you've gone about this wrong. I'd have probably got another RR session somewhere else as back up before being so confident.
13 October 2010, 07:42 AM
#325
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Still, will be interesting to see the results today, and find out when the RR was last calibrated, the one I use is done every year.
Tony
13 October 2010, 07:44 AM
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Think this puzzled me in post #38, I have always had an understanding that when you run on a RR you run in 1 gear under top, ie 4th with a 5 speed box and 5th with a 6 speed box so that you have consistant results.
Still, will be interesting to see the results today, and find out when the RR was last calibrated, the one I use is done every year.
Tony
Still, will be interesting to see the results today, and find out when the RR was last calibrated, the one I use is done every year.
Tony
13 October 2010, 08:24 AM
#327
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Tony- on dynos your meant to run the car in the gear that is nearest 1.1 ration so the gear ratios dont throw up a inaccurate reading, in general most 5 speed cars that is 4th, in most 6 speed cars it is 5th, obviously this is a general rule. often you may find cars are run in the wrong gear lol
does anyone know if they acount for the fact the gear is never 1.1 ratio? it varies model to model :womder:
does anyone know if they acount for the fact the gear is never 1.1 ratio? it varies model to model :womder:
Last edited by techno_brat; 13 October 2010 at 08:30 AM.
13 October 2010, 08:41 AM
#330
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