Sure and maybe epilepsy allows access to deeper truths just as the artist seeks them out, maybe using drugs (or not).

You could call it the product of an illness or supernatural....whatever, they are just words ultimately.

 

Whenever a Christian says ‘I believe in God through faith’ they do so knowing that those who don’t have faith will mock and ridicule, yet they do it anyway. This ‘faith’ is massively overrated as an argument against God as it is the foundations and the first step to knowing God and knowing he exists but by no means is it the final say in our relationship with him or proving his existence.

Would faith alone be enough to keep Christians from following their human instincts, e.g. not having sex before marriage? Would faith that the Bible is true just because it creates a religion by which we grow up and follow be enough if it was just a storybook? What about giving financially to the church, we are all selfish by nature albeit with varying degrees of compassion. Would we really give money to an organisation that was built on unsustainable faith? Not a chance. So how does this ‘blind faith’ lead people to dedicate their lives, risk mocking and confrontation, even risking their lives in other countries and in the past? It appears to be almost the opposite to many other religions where they must remain loyal to their religion or be kicked out of the family or worse, so how has it lasted all these years on ‘faith’ that the Bible might be true? Simply put it hasn’t.

It is frustrating when people dismiss faith straight away and try to reason, use logic or physics to explain whether God exists or not, it is even more frustrating when people who are Christians do this and end up turning away from their faith. How can we do this to assess who God is, the very God that created these things and is both above and outside of it. Some try to fit him into a logic and reason box, but by doing that we would simply do nothing but limit our understanding of him by our own human limitations, he wouldn’t fit and they’d fail, coming to a quick and inaccurate conclusion.

Faith appears to be the deepest part of our relationship with God that Atheist can relate to and can understand, further explanations from people who know God on a deeper level will leave Atheists scratching their heads and putting it down to mental health issues, I mean what else could they put it down to? They have already made up their minds God doesn’t exist…haven’t they?

There seems to be an incredible amount of people around the world and over the last many thousands of years that claim to have this ‘mental health’ issue not to mention being able to maintain an unworldly lifestyle that goes against our human nature just because they have a ‘hollow’ faith and that’s before we take in to account those that have risked death over the last 2,000 years simply because they believe.

Faith for me was just the beginning. I mentioned about intrinsic proof earlier in this thread. Faith will usually always lead you to God proving to you on a personal level he is real (of course there are rare exceptions often due to reasons already mentioned). God loves it when you have faith in him and it allows him to meet with you on a personal level. It will open up opportunities to see and experience God move in ways that give you your proof. I have had this many times and have tried to share this before with people on here but have learnt that no matter what you say people will find the most irrational, coincidental, fluky reasons to explain it, and that’s for each one. Amazing. For me who has experienced it first hand though I have all the proof I will ever need, my relationship with God has its ups and downs but it is a true relationship where I love him more than anything I can describe, it is the most fantastic feeling so please forgive those who try and share this with you if you don’t believe in God as they are just hoping that you may experience this as well, after all this is your salvation for eternity they are talking about not just to ‘score a goal’ and win, really, they couldn’t care less about that. I know I don’t.

I wasn’t intending to keep posting as the longer threads like this go on for the more people dig their heals in which doesn’t do anyone any good, but with so much ‘all you have is faith’ talk going around I just wanted to view my thoughts on why faith shouldn’t be dismissed so casually.

 

Scientific theories are ordered by which they are observed. Scientific theories are tested through observation. Religion are events and experiences which are interpreted by "imagination" of the humand mind. Religious beliefs are ordered by which they are experienced, hence why there are many, Christianity, Hindu, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintu, Paganism, Jainism, etc. Some worship one god, others worship many and others none at all. So who is right? They can't all be right.

 

Good post; really honest. Apologies for the childish jibes earlier in the thread. @srsport.

 

 

You could call it supernatural if you wished but, you'd be wrong. If one intended to refer to a metephorically supernatural experience one would need to be explicit in making this distinction to avoid confusion amongst the uninitited. Alternatively, the adjective 'numinous' covers all bases for a non-literalist. I'm surprised that someone so keen on sybolism and metaphor would posit a notion that words are "just words"; I would suggest that they're a critical, defining device.

 

Words are just signs ultimately.

 

No, words are a method of communicating ideas.

 

Would you humour me and elucidate a little please, tdw?

 

Language is imperfect it can only point the way to truth.

 

So if I understand correctly, you are saying that religion isnt trying to explain the origin of life and the universe?

And you are saying that anyone who takes your words as literal is a fundmentalist? We should in fact be taking your true meaning as that in the implied things you say or hint at?

What kind of tortuous nonsense is this? Christianity ( this example used because its the religion I am most familiar with) does exactly that (explain origins of the life and universe). If you are referring to moral codes then they are just that, moral codes. Such codes can and do exist independently of religion. Thats not what this discussion is about.

Is your argument so weak that you can't actually explain what you stand for in plain English? I agree religion is a package, ritualistic chanting, moral codes, explaination of the origins of life, but this thread was started with the origins of the universe as its main point. By repeatedly avoiding this element with other fluff and distractions, it makes it look like you have no leg to stand on.

 

For God sake, what the hell are you talking about? What truth? Why can't language articulate it? You keep making these unsupported statements as if they are fact. They are not. It may be that YOU can't articulate the "truth" but dont count me in that group

 

Well, could you use it to point the way to your truth as at this juncture I'm lost?

 

Woah there! So a person has faith there is a God and that is the foundation of knowing he exists. Right. Just like that eh? Believe he exists and he exists. Uh huh...

The evidence is that the answer is YES.

See above

Yes, how distressingly annoying that the idea you are selling is subject to tests such as evidence before people believe what you are saying, why can't they just believe what you tell them blindly for Gods sake!

Yep that loss in revenue is a kicker!

says you..

This is the most breathtakingly disingeneous argument. God is bigger than anything we can possibly comprend therefore my idea is right and your science is wrong. Because you cant detect any single iota of his existance it means your science is faulty and my argument holds true. What total rubbish. If not A then it MUST be B. I can find no evidence of Harry Potter, the tooth fairy, an oribiting teapot or a flying spaghetti monster either so why is God the answer?

In what way is belief in God not delusional?

Yep, and its time to end this tyranny of ignorance

Going to your death for it is a measure of the strength of the belief not its validity.

All I can say is you would be advised to see a doctor

Hey just show me the evidence and I'll be on my knees, cannibalistically eating the flesh of the son of god, vampirically drinking his blood that only moments before was baked wheat extract and fermented grape juice, miraculously transformed by ritualistic chanting and elaborate gestures, as I celebrate living on a 6000 year old Earth, ignoring all evidence of evolution, "knowing" that I believe in an all seeing all knowing omnipotent superbeing that created all life, who then murdered thousands of people who he didnt like, and I cant see, but know in my head is real.

But I won't hold my breath.

 

This is one of the most creepy things I have ever read.

 

What a ******* fruit-loop... this is the reason I detest god bothering folk "just the beginning" you need to have a word with yourself..... you're not that far from believing you're the second coming

 

Amen to that!

 

So...

Did 'God' do it or was spontaneous creation the reason we're all here?

No one's answered yet....


And just to lighten the mood a little.....
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/gimage...wakinglego.jpg

 

It was not a man in a white robe and matching beard....

 

Thanks DCI - I can go to bed now and sleep easy.

 

My post did not compare science to religion. I was looking at science in it's own right, as someone who trained as a scientist.

How is the argument 'fallacious'?

You quote that we learn new things such as quantum mechanics. Prove it? Prove it empiracally?

You can't and you never will be able to. All you can do is build machines and experiments that are consistent with what you will find and lo and behold you will find 'quantum mechanics'!

My point is not that science does not have methodology, but is sure has faith. It has faith that most of what Einstein said was accurate, that current hypothesise are accurate. But they are only as accurate as the current references we have. Saying that we are making progress is as arrogant as Victorian scientists who proclaimed there was nothing else to discover. There universe now looks like one drawn by a blind man locked in a dark toilet.

I would wager than in a 1,000 years time core physical theory will be fundamentally different to what it is now.

So, yes, science is dependent on faith and belief and it is best not to lose sight of that.

I do agree with you that this faith in science is borne of man's need to be inquisitive.

 

Try this:

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

 

What I love about GOD!

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

No wonder his followers are fruitloop - he is greener than the incredible hulk!

 

The fruit-loop's are just protecting their franchise/revenue stream

 

That it may be, but at least it will have become so by virtue of people actually being @rsed to do some real work to figure it out, instead of just closing their eyes and chanting or mumbling to themselves!


If you had an ounce of honesty in you, you'd admit you know perfectly well that's not true. Just goes to show the utterly desperate mental gymnastics people will put themselves through, to maintain their attachment to the warm and cosy blanket of religion.

 

I'd just like to add that if my last post comes across as a little vitriolic, the main reason for it is simply that the whole muddying the waters line of argument which attempts to demonstrate some supposedly seamless drift from 'trust in experimentally proven outcomes' into 'blind faith of the religious kind' is really, really starting to get a bit old. If the people pursuing it honestly aren't aware that's what they're doing, it shouldn't do them any long-term harm to be confronted with the fact. If on the other hand they are aware, then clearly their tactic deserves to be exposed for what it really is.

 

Herein is thou holy hit parade of Today's Top Ten Gods and Goddesses for Wednesday 8 September 2010

1st: FATES (Greek)
2nd: LOKI (Norse)
3rd: ODIN (Norse)
4th: APOTAMKIN (Native American)
5th: ATLAS (Greek)
6th: ZEUS (Greek)
7th: ADONIS (Greek)
8th: CRONUS (Greek)
9th: BALDUR (Norse)
10th: HERACLES (Greek)

Courtesy of www.godchecker.com

 

I hope somebody reads and comments on the link; I've posted it a couple of times before without success yet I remain interested in the musings of NSR's inteligentsia.

 

It deals with meaning principally.

 

Why do you feel you have to be so insulting because he has expressed his honest beliefs?

Is it because you can't prove that his beliefs are wrong and therefore that is the only way you can try to undermine what he has said. It does not prove anything from the point of your ideas either.

if you feel you have to comment why not just say that you don't agree with what he has said. Offensive remarks are nothing to write home about!

Les