Stephen Hawking
06 September 2010, 08:36 AM
#271
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Oh come on, you surely are just trolling now! Christianity is riddled with introlerance. Religious intolerance, sexual intolerance, suppression of women.....
Feel free to quote one thing I have said that is intolerant? I am not actually intolerant of religion per se, but I do get frustrated at the illogical and refusal to answer pointed questions, except with a rather glib statement about faith.
Feel free to quote one thing I have said that is intolerant? I am not actually intolerant of religion per se, but I do get frustrated at the illogical and refusal to answer pointed questions, except with a rather glib statement about faith.
06 September 2010, 08:40 AM
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And so we reach the inevitable point. You have ceased to answer questions to which you know are indefensible, and have reduced yourself to trying to make out that I am prejudiced 
Any meaningful debate has ceased.
Thankyou for illustrating my point so well
Geezer
Any meaningful debate has ceased.Thankyou for illustrating my point so well
Geezer
06 September 2010, 08:40 AM
#273
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So it's science vs god then..... an interesting paradox would be a "Christian scientist" - effectively in a job that may just ruin his faith...
06 September 2010, 08:56 AM
#274
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Seeing as everyone else is still going for it ...
OK, I'll start off by pointing out two very important things that I think Christianity did for the advancement of science and modernity. First, it provided continued centuries of relative political stability and order in the parts of the world where it became established, which in many ways are prerequisites for abstract study of any kind, as without them it's almost impossible for a society to divert significant enough resources away from satisfying the basic needs of feeding itself, providing shelter etc. Second, by the spread of its teachings in printed form it promoted literacy as a basic skill among ever-widening sections of the populations of Europe, which again is a vital stepping-stone to scientific study and free inquiry.
Now I've got that over with, I'll still have to point out that your comments are a bit of a hotch-potch of basic historical error, misassociation and misattribution. For starters, compassion as a theme in philosophy was well-known in various parts of the world centuries before the beginnings of Christianity, but in any case it had little or nothing to do with the renewed interest in Antiquity that came with the Renaissance. Similarly, those scholars of Antiquity who were rediscovered in the Renaissance had no problem at all practising the study of science as a theoretical, abstract pursuit, despite personally believing in a multitude of gods. And so far as the New Testament was concerned, you're forgetting that at the time the events it purports to describe actually occurred, its chief protagonist didn't have the slightest pretention that his teachings would or should be adopted by anyone outside of his own people - in other words, Jesus was a Jew, and only ever claimed to be speaking to or for the Jews. It's only years after his death that people such as Paul thought to take it upon themselves to spread his philosophy outside of that clan to the wider world.
So where do I think that leaves the final score, for Christinanity as a promoter of the positive things we enjoy in the world today? It's a bit of a mixed bag really, but on balance I think you have to conclude that's it's as much by happy accident as by any specific trait of thought belonging to Christianity that the western world as we know it developed on the foundations of or within the geographic boundaries of an originally Christian society. You might just as easily say for example, that the Black Death is what triggered the Renaissance and eventually the development of modern science, because of the massive shift in power that it brought about away from the central authority of the Papacy and toward the independent city states of Italy. Or, you could argue that it was the rise of the bourgeoisie, and the entrepreneurial spirit that came with it, that led directly to the culture of the amateur scientist and experimentation for its own sake. Or if you really want to play devil's advocate, there's an absolutely massive case to be made that warfare has been the primary driver of scientific innovation throughout vast swathes of our history, recent and otherwise.
Is that enough of a reason to say that Christianity should now be systematically rooted out from present-day society, and forever be condemned as a force that was historically only ever negative and evil? Most certainly not. But by the same token, it's still a massive leap to over-state the positive role it has left to play in the world today, or how much we owe it for the contribution it's played in the past to our relatively comfortable lives now. The problem for the Church then, as others have pointed out, is definitely that for it not to stand out as being increasingly anachronistic and meaningless, it's forced to concede ever more ground on the symbolism/allegory front, but the further it goes down that road the closer it gets to talking itself out of existence. It's firmly stuck between a rock and a hard place, in other words. And so far as the 'anti-Church' posters here are concerned, my bet is that they don't want anything more from the 'pro-Church' posters than an honest admission of the fact.
OK, I'll start off by pointing out two very important things that I think Christianity did for the advancement of science and modernity. First, it provided continued centuries of relative political stability and order in the parts of the world where it became established, which in many ways are prerequisites for abstract study of any kind, as without them it's almost impossible for a society to divert significant enough resources away from satisfying the basic needs of feeding itself, providing shelter etc. Second, by the spread of its teachings in printed form it promoted literacy as a basic skill among ever-widening sections of the populations of Europe, which again is a vital stepping-stone to scientific study and free inquiry.
Now I've got that over with, I'll still have to point out that your comments are a bit of a hotch-potch of basic historical error, misassociation and misattribution. For starters, compassion as a theme in philosophy was well-known in various parts of the world centuries before the beginnings of Christianity, but in any case it had little or nothing to do with the renewed interest in Antiquity that came with the Renaissance. Similarly, those scholars of Antiquity who were rediscovered in the Renaissance had no problem at all practising the study of science as a theoretical, abstract pursuit, despite personally believing in a multitude of gods. And so far as the New Testament was concerned, you're forgetting that at the time the events it purports to describe actually occurred, its chief protagonist didn't have the slightest pretention that his teachings would or should be adopted by anyone outside of his own people - in other words, Jesus was a Jew, and only ever claimed to be speaking to or for the Jews. It's only years after his death that people such as Paul thought to take it upon themselves to spread his philosophy outside of that clan to the wider world.
So where do I think that leaves the final score, for Christinanity as a promoter of the positive things we enjoy in the world today? It's a bit of a mixed bag really, but on balance I think you have to conclude that's it's as much by happy accident as by any specific trait of thought belonging to Christianity that the western world as we know it developed on the foundations of or within the geographic boundaries of an originally Christian society. You might just as easily say for example, that the Black Death is what triggered the Renaissance and eventually the development of modern science, because of the massive shift in power that it brought about away from the central authority of the Papacy and toward the independent city states of Italy. Or, you could argue that it was the rise of the bourgeoisie, and the entrepreneurial spirit that came with it, that led directly to the culture of the amateur scientist and experimentation for its own sake. Or if you really want to play devil's advocate, there's an absolutely massive case to be made that warfare has been the primary driver of scientific innovation throughout vast swathes of our history, recent and otherwise.
Is that enough of a reason to say that Christianity should now be systematically rooted out from present-day society, and forever be condemned as a force that was historically only ever negative and evil? Most certainly not. But by the same token, it's still a massive leap to over-state the positive role it has left to play in the world today, or how much we owe it for the contribution it's played in the past to our relatively comfortable lives now. The problem for the Church then, as others have pointed out, is definitely that for it not to stand out as being increasingly anachronistic and meaningless, it's forced to concede ever more ground on the symbolism/allegory front, but the further it goes down that road the closer it gets to talking itself out of existence. It's firmly stuck between a rock and a hard place, in other words. And so far as the 'anti-Church' posters here are concerned, my bet is that they don't want anything more from the 'pro-Church' posters than an honest admission of the fact.
It's a change in human consciousness from say primitive animism then latter the Patheonism of antiquity. There is no universal truth with Panteonism and the world is governed by capricious Gods. It makes man more conscious if you like, less primitive and animal, enables abstract study and thought later science. There is not point in developing science if you believe the universe is disordered and unpredictable.
The Greeks had a society that produced high art, but the never developed the scientific method as we understand it today. Plato came close to a kind of monotheism, which is why Neitzche called Christianity 'Plato for the masses'. If nothing else it's the way Christianity was successful in carrying this 'truth' to people and into history. Plato was left forgotten and gathering dust or accessible to scholars (an elite) only. I guess this is thanks to Paul ultimately.
No I really don't think the modern morality of compassion in the West comes from anywhere else but Christianity. The Romans had a morality of strength and the indigenous pagan religions were similar. Christ carries a message of being compassionate and this was built on by modern humanists.
06 September 2010, 08:58 AM
#275
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But your principle attack on Christianity is that it is prejudiced and intolerant. I'm just showing the irony of your position.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 06 September 2010 at 09:04 AM.
06 September 2010, 09:10 AM
#276
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I am certainly not prejudiced. Prejudice is having a judgement against something without any prior knowledge of, from an uninformed position, if you like.
It's quite clear that I have a greater knowlegde of religion than some on here, I was not born an atheist, I was taught that God made the Earth like most people of my generation, but after actually looking at it, have comne to the conclusion that it simply isn't so. Which part of that is prejudiced?
Geezer
06 September 2010, 09:21 AM
#277
On the contrary, I'd say they developed some of the founding principles of mathematics and science that we know today. Granted it wasn't highly developed like we'd know today, but their work was firmly grounded in sound principles.
06 September 2010, 09:22 AM
#278
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No you're not, you're trying to demonstrate that I am intolerant and prejudiced, when nothing I have said shows this at all. I have quoted innaccuracies, anomalies, contradictions in religious belief. I have also pointed out that religions in general are intolerant. I challenge you to refute well documented cases of introlerance within religion that I have raised in this thread.
I am certainly not prejudiced. Prejudice is having a judgement against something without any prior knowledge of, from an uninformed position, if you like.
It's quite clear that I have a greater knowlegde of religion than some on here, I was not born an atheist, I was taught that God made the Earth like most people of my generation, but after actually looking at it, have comne to the conclusion that it simply isn't so. Which part of that is prejudiced?
Geezer
I am certainly not prejudiced. Prejudice is having a judgement against something without any prior knowledge of, from an uninformed position, if you like.
It's quite clear that I have a greater knowlegde of religion than some on here, I was not born an atheist, I was taught that God made the Earth like most people of my generation, but after actually looking at it, have comne to the conclusion that it simply isn't so. Which part of that is prejudiced?
Geezer
Why are you even in dialogue with something you mock out of the other side of your mouth?
06 September 2010, 09:45 AM
#279
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You have alluded to Christianity as 'mental illness', and being unworthy of respect, and as 'preposterous', and on top of that keep plugging this strawman argument of the creation myths as 'having to be taken literally'.
Why are you even in dialogue with something you mock out of the other side of your mouth?
Why are you even in dialogue with something you mock out of the other side of your mouth?
First off, I did not allude Christianity as being a mental illness, rather I stated that there is a clear contradiction in the fact that some "visions" are hailed as proof of the existence of God/Jesus/Mary whatever, and some other claims to be guided by God are treated as beng criminally insane, the only difference being one set of actions is seen as good, the other. I even re-read my post in case I had misrepresented that thought, but nope, I hadn't!
IMO, it is unworthy of respect. Anything that preaches that women are second class, that homosexuals are second class, adulterers should be stoned to death, slavey is a good thing, rape and murder are good things, that someone can have an eternity (that's a fookin long time) of punishment and suffering for the most trivial of crimes is not worthy of respect. Again, I say in my opinion. If in your opinion those things are ok (and they are all advocated in the bible), that's up to you.
Preposterous? Well, yes, like Father Christmas, Unicorns, fairies. They are preposterous because there is not one songle piece of evidence to support their existence.
Creation. Well, it's more general than that. You seem to like your strawman statement, yet it's utterly unfounded. The idea of symbolism and allegry would have been totally unfamilar to the 'writers'of the old testament. They simply did not have the knowledge to understand how things come. This goes back to what I said about the first science. It's wholly understandable. They truly believed. The symbolism we now have is simply because the position of literal truth has become untenable. As recently as the 19th century, before the great explosion in knowlegde of how the Earth works and how it was formed, the bible was still literal.
So, do we have to take them literally? Well, I don't personally, but anyone who believes in God (or any other deity/religion) cannot simply dismiss something as symbolic because it has been proven incorrect. The bible does not have a legend stating which bits are to be taken seriously, and which bits are not
.Why am I in a dialogue about this? This is the internet, I can do what I like
Geezer
06 September 2010, 10:08 AM
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Hmmmmmm, VERY Compassionate.
(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a
sword. Their little children will be dashed
to death right before their eyes. Their
homes will be sacked and their wives
raped by the attacking hordes. For I will
stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of
silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will
shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have
no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion
for the children
06 September 2010, 10:16 AM
#281
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The mentally ill bit was my statement. Believing in omnipotent sky fairies is delusional (because it literally is a fairy story). Suffering from delusions is a mental illness. Thats all it boils down to really.
Posters seem to be asking why can't we respect religion? Why would I? Why does it deserve respect? An idea that is false and causes harm, warps the thinking of mankind, causes war and disharmony, treats non believers as lower class human beings, actively encourages dumb adherence to its creed and tells believers to stop thinking under the banner of "faith" - no, its contempt it earns not respect, and no amount of that whole industry of theology (I mean come on! a whole career spent studying a fairy story?!) is going to change those facts. wake up!
Posters seem to be asking why can't we respect religion? Why would I? Why does it deserve respect? An idea that is false and causes harm, warps the thinking of mankind, causes war and disharmony, treats non believers as lower class human beings, actively encourages dumb adherence to its creed and tells believers to stop thinking under the banner of "faith" - no, its contempt it earns not respect, and no amount of that whole industry of theology (I mean come on! a whole career spent studying a fairy story?!) is going to change those facts. wake up!
06 September 2010, 10:31 AM
#282
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My reason is, How on earth can you respect any organisation that has throughout history been so intolerant of anyone/anything that has stood in the way of it's beliefs? Has committed such horrendous crimes against humanity in the form of murder, rape, Abuse of children etc, etc. All of this in the name of "God" Makes me sick to think about it and all it stands for.
I am sure modern Christians will debunk the past crimes and atrocities as being "Not of the modern word" but hey, It is still Christianity all the same and the same oppression and hatred is still carried out under it's name all over the world.
How possibly can you respect an organisation that does and has done all of that?
I am sure modern Christians will debunk the past crimes and atrocities as being "Not of the modern word" but hey, It is still Christianity all the same and the same oppression and hatred is still carried out under it's name all over the world.
How possibly can you respect an organisation that does and has done all of that?
06 September 2010, 10:41 AM
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My reason is, How on earth can you respect any organisation that has throughout history been so intolerant of anyone/anything that has stood in the way of it's beliefs? Has committed such horrendous crimes against humanity in the form of murder, rape, Abuse of children etc, etc. All of this in the name of "God" Makes me sick to think about it and all it stands for.
I am sure modern Christians will debunk the past crimes and atrocities as being "Not of the modern word" but hey, It is still Christianity all the same and the same oppression and hatred is still carried out under it's name all over the world.
How possibly can you respect an organisation that does and has done all of that?
I am sure modern Christians will debunk the past crimes and atrocities as being "Not of the modern word" but hey, It is still Christianity all the same and the same oppression and hatred is still carried out under it's name all over the world.
How possibly can you respect an organisation that does and has done all of that?
06 September 2010, 10:45 AM
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Creation. Well, it's more general than that. You seem to like your strawman statement, yet it's utterly unfounded. The idea of symbolism and allegry would have been totally unfamilar to the 'writers'of the old testament. They simply did not have the knowledge to understand how things come. This goes back to what I said about the first science. It's wholly understandable. They truly believed. The symbolism we now have is simply because the position of literal truth has become untenable. As recently as the 19th century, before the great explosion in knowlegde of how the Earth works and how it was formed, the bible was still literal.
Creation. Well, it's more general than that. You seem to like your strawman statement, yet it's utterly unfounded. The idea of symbolism and allegry would have been totally unfamilar to the 'writers'of the old testament. They simply did not have the knowledge to understand how things come. This goes back to what I said about the first science. It's wholly understandable. They truly believed. The symbolism we now have is simply because the position of literal truth has become untenable. As recently as the 19th century, before the great explosion in knowlegde of how the Earth works and how it was formed, the bible was still literal.
Is Homer's Iliad and Odyssey nonsense because it is not history as we know it?
06 September 2010, 10:48 AM
#285
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Hitler Was a Christian
The Holocaust was caused by Christian fundamentalism:
History is currently being distorted by the millions of Christians who lie to have us believe that the Holocaust was not a Christian deed. Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on those with out Jesus. However, from the earliest formation of the **** party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.
Considering that Christianity has thus far been incapable of producing an unbiased, educated follower which speaks the truth, (I haven’t encountered any), I have been forced to dispel the myth by writing this essay. It is not until I bring up his speeches, my personal info on the **** regime and their tactics that a Christian will begin to question what their clergy told them. (I am the offspring of a German soldier. My Opa served under Hitler in WW2 and my father was raised during the time of the **** regime. This is important information to take into consideration for I am privy to some info that most Americans do not know. It is common for American media and education institutions to lie to their citizens concerning **** Germany.) So, in presenting this information I must break it into four parts: 1) Facts about Hitler and his involvement with the Church. 2) How the Church was the catalyst for anti- Semitism. 3) Facts concerning how the **** regime drilled these beliefs into Germanic society. 4) Quotes Hitler made which prove he had a disdain for atheism/occultism, upheld his Christian faith, and hated Jews due to his Christianity.
Hitler’s involvement with the Church:
a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.
b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)
c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.
d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.
f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the **** Party
g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed **** ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.
Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)
h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism
How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:
Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.
Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles treaty. The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world recognized power. Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933. This placed him in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations, mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in a national Christianity.
How the **** Regime converted the people:
a) In the 1920s, Hitler’s German Workers’ Party (pre **** term) adopted a “Programme” with twenty-five points (the **** version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a “positive” Christianity: “We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession...”
b) The **** regime started a youth movement which preached its agenda to impressionable children. Hitler backed up the notion that all people need faith and religious education: “By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence.” – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
c) The **** regime began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught.
d) The **** regime included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and they were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961.
e) The **** regime having full blown power over the people began to forcibly convert all its military.
f) The **** regime forced the German soldiers to wear religious symbols such as the swastika and they placed religious sayings on military gear. An example here is this German army belt buckle (I believe my Opa had one) which reads “Gott Mit Uns”. For those of you who do not speak German it is translated as “God With Us”.
g) The German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on a maneuver.
h) The ***** created a secret service called the “SS Reich” that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens. If anyone was suspected of heresy (Going not only against the Socialist party but CHURCH DOCTRINE) they would be prosecuted.
Quotes from Hitler:
Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:
“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand against cults.]
“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]
Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)
"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)
"With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)
“The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.”–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
“The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.)
“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)
Quotes from Other ***** about Hitler and Religion:
"Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide." (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)
06 September 2010, 11:27 AM
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Les
06 September 2010, 11:59 AM
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Interesting to see that all the posts from one side or the other have not solved anything just as was forecast earlier in this thread.
Discussion about whether religion is right or wrong will always deteriorate into useless argument, often unpleasant, and no satisfactory conclusion to go with it.
The important lesson I think is that it is better to respect the fact that we are all entitled to our own opinions and there is no law to say what that has to be thank goodness.
That does not mean of course that it is necessary to respect what the other bloke believes, merely his right to believe it. I have already seen that misunderstanding in a post above.
It is utterly childish to accuse a man of being mentally deficient for saying that he believes the opposite to one's own ideas. It only serves to show the lack of a decent argument anyway.
There is no reason why a religiously minded person can't also accept the scientists' work to a degree accepting that what has been said so far about the start of it all is the subject of theoretical study to go with all the mathematics. We shall have to see if they find Mr Higg's Boson and whether that would be a significant part of the argument won't we!
No one can deny the evolution of species through all those years. It is not a proof against the possibility of a being who was able to set it all off though.
Troubles associated with religion are set off by people for their own selfish purposes, the various religions do not advocate such behaviour. Blame the self professed zealots, not the religion.
I personally cannot say which approach in the correct one, or whether the real answer is a combination of both. Maybe we shall never know, while we are alive anyway.
I have never stated my personal beliefs, and neither do I intend to. Assumption is a dangerous path though! I do however prefer to see fair play and dislike seeing people being slammed unfairly for what they believe in.
Les
Discussion about whether religion is right or wrong will always deteriorate into useless argument, often unpleasant, and no satisfactory conclusion to go with it.
The important lesson I think is that it is better to respect the fact that we are all entitled to our own opinions and there is no law to say what that has to be thank goodness.
That does not mean of course that it is necessary to respect what the other bloke believes, merely his right to believe it. I have already seen that misunderstanding in a post above.
It is utterly childish to accuse a man of being mentally deficient for saying that he believes the opposite to one's own ideas. It only serves to show the lack of a decent argument anyway.
There is no reason why a religiously minded person can't also accept the scientists' work to a degree accepting that what has been said so far about the start of it all is the subject of theoretical study to go with all the mathematics. We shall have to see if they find Mr Higg's Boson and whether that would be a significant part of the argument won't we!
No one can deny the evolution of species through all those years. It is not a proof against the possibility of a being who was able to set it all off though.
Troubles associated with religion are set off by people for their own selfish purposes, the various religions do not advocate such behaviour. Blame the self professed zealots, not the religion.
I personally cannot say which approach in the correct one, or whether the real answer is a combination of both. Maybe we shall never know, while we are alive anyway.
I have never stated my personal beliefs, and neither do I intend to. Assumption is a dangerous path though! I do however prefer to see fair play and dislike seeing people being slammed unfairly for what they believe in.
Les
06 September 2010, 12:08 PM
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Give me a break, the ***** were incidental Christians, they were interested principally in **** ideals; strong state, state harnessed with private industry (corporatism), german racial supremacy/purity etc. Religion was not really on the map so long as it played subservient to the Party.
Himmler even started planning a new state religion based on Norse/Germanic pagan mythology.
Hitler like any politicians said a lot of thing to a lot of people in his rise to power especially. Lip service to the Church being one of them.
Himmler even started planning a new state religion based on Norse/Germanic pagan mythology.
Hitler like any politicians said a lot of thing to a lot of people in his rise to power especially. Lip service to the Church being one of them.
06 September 2010, 12:10 PM
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Can you honestly say that if you met someone who was convinced the Universe was created by Mickey Mouse (with some assistance from the Non Dead Elvis) that you would say "Well I don't agree with that - but you are entitled to that opinion" ?
06 September 2010, 12:27 PM
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Give me a break, the ***** were incidental Christians, they were interested principally in **** ideals; strong state, state harnessed with private industry (corporatism), german racial supremacy/purity etc. Religion was not really on the map so long as it played subservient to the Party.
Himmler even started planning a new state religion based on Norse/Germanic pagan mythology.
Hitler like any politicians said a lot of thing to a lot of people in his rise to power especially. Lip service to the Church being one of them.
Himmler even started planning a new state religion based on Norse/Germanic pagan mythology.
Hitler like any politicians said a lot of thing to a lot of people in his rise to power especially. Lip service to the Church being one of them.
Hitler and the ***** were still bed fellows with Christianity though.
06 September 2010, 01:16 PM
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06 September 2010, 01:59 PM
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the purpose of the thread is not to solve the debate, but to build the momentum of the way of correct thinking, a sort of asimov foundation if you like...
it might take another 1000 years, but humans will develop until we have no organised religion I believe. (i hope)
it might take another 1000 years, but humans will develop until we have no organised religion I believe. (i hope)
. Unless, we bomb ourselves back to the stone age somewhere in between.
06 September 2010, 03:27 PM
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- "I am going to shoot you, but first I will theorise about the bullets trajactory and likely impact speed and energy, whilst wearing a white lab coat". It's just a method. Gassing someone is gassing someone, it's just a way of despatching them.Let me ask you why you think the Iliad and Odyssey are fiction, yet the Bible is truth? Both have smatterings of history in them, but are largely untrue. What makes the Bible so special?
Geezer
06 September 2010, 04:12 PM
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Seems the argument has gone backwards-3 pages ago I was discussing the existance of a higher being and it's having created us and everything we see.
Now it seems we have taken a step backwards and started arguing over a book written a lifetime after some event which happened to some random who claimed to be the direct son of such a creator with multiple authors and edits over hundreds of years.
As an atheist i still accept the chance that a higher power may have created us or the universe at least but I will never accept the christain or any other religions version of God.
A rumour going round the ten seats at work can't even be accurately recounted let alone stories to fill a book the size of the bible covering thousands of years of history (Ok so 6000)!
It's an easy game to play-we all know chinese whispers.
Still reading lots of 'because I believe' kind of answers too. Will check back in a few days to see if things have moved on.
Now it seems we have taken a step backwards and started arguing over a book written a lifetime after some event which happened to some random who claimed to be the direct son of such a creator with multiple authors and edits over hundreds of years.
As an atheist i still accept the chance that a higher power may have created us or the universe at least but I will never accept the christain or any other religions version of God.
A rumour going round the ten seats at work can't even be accurately recounted let alone stories to fill a book the size of the bible covering thousands of years of history (Ok so 6000)!
It's an easy game to play-we all know chinese whispers.
Still reading lots of 'because I believe' kind of answers too. Will check back in a few days to see if things have moved on.
Last edited by Korrosiv; 06 September 2010 at 04:14 PM.
06 September 2010, 08:01 PM
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06 September 2010, 08:04 PM
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