Newbie with a problem, advice needed please.
31 July 2010, 10:04 PM
#32
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A quick update, the original engineer who the garage wanted to visit is no longer in business. I was referred by Paddy on here, (cheers paddy) to a company in Merseyside, by the name of Hoopers. They come very highly recommended for this kind of issue. They're going monday to look at the vehicle in its current state, the engine is then going to be removed and stripped, to a degree, then Hoopers are going back to have a proper look and see what, if anything, they can conclude.
Spoke to Subaru UK again yesterday and they said that they demand that a subaru approved garage have at least 2 subaru trained mechanics, but, this is the bizarre bit, they don't have to be the ones who are working on your Subaru???? WHAT??? Why would anyone take their pride n joy to an approved garage if they new there was a likelyhood that the technician working on their car wasn't trained to the manufacturers standard. That's what you pay for surely
I'm going into the garage on Monday to insist that the person who strips the engine down is subaru trained.
Made a call to API and spoke to David, he gave me some good advice and was very helpful. I genuinely don't expect that we will benefit much from this saga but I will get some satisfaction out of the fact that the garage have footed the bill for work upto the point we move on.
I'll let you know how it goes when we have any news.
Dan
Spoke to Subaru UK again yesterday and they said that they demand that a subaru approved garage have at least 2 subaru trained mechanics, but, this is the bizarre bit, they don't have to be the ones who are working on your Subaru???? WHAT??? Why would anyone take their pride n joy to an approved garage if they new there was a likelyhood that the technician working on their car wasn't trained to the manufacturers standard. That's what you pay for surely
I'm going into the garage on Monday to insist that the person who strips the engine down is subaru trained.
Made a call to API and spoke to David, he gave me some good advice and was very helpful. I genuinely don't expect that we will benefit much from this saga but I will get some satisfaction out of the fact that the garage have footed the bill for work upto the point we move on.
I'll let you know how it goes when we have any news.
Dan
31 July 2010, 10:12 PM
#33
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A quick update, the original engineer who the garage wanted to visit is no longer in business. I was referred by Paddy on here, (cheers paddy) to a company in Merseyside, by the name of Hoopers. They come very highly recommended for this kind of issue. They're going monday to look at the vehicle in its current state, the engine is then going to be removed and stripped, to a degree, then Hoopers are going back to have a proper look and see what, if anything, they can conclude.
Spoke to Subaru UK again yesterday and they said that they demand that a subaru approved garage have at least 2 subaru trained mechanics, but, this is the bizarre bit, they don't have to be the ones who are working on your Subaru???? WHAT??? Why would anyone take their pride n joy to an approved garage if they new there was a likelyhood that the technician working on their car wasn't trained to the manufacturers standard. That's what you pay for surely
I'm going into the garage on Monday to insist that the person who strips the engine down is subaru trained.
Made a call to API and spoke to David, he gave me some good advice and was very helpful. I genuinely don't expect that we will benefit much from this saga but I will get some satisfaction out of the fact that the garage have footed the bill for work upto the point we move on.
I'll let you know how it goes when we have any news.
Dan
Spoke to Subaru UK again yesterday and they said that they demand that a subaru approved garage have at least 2 subaru trained mechanics, but, this is the bizarre bit, they don't have to be the ones who are working on your Subaru???? WHAT??? Why would anyone take their pride n joy to an approved garage if they new there was a likelyhood that the technician working on their car wasn't trained to the manufacturers standard. That's what you pay for surely
I'm going into the garage on Monday to insist that the person who strips the engine down is subaru trained.
Made a call to API and spoke to David, he gave me some good advice and was very helpful. I genuinely don't expect that we will benefit much from this saga but I will get some satisfaction out of the fact that the garage have footed the bill for work upto the point we move on.
I'll let you know how it goes when we have any news.
Dan
02 August 2010, 07:24 PM
#34
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The engineer visited the garage today, took some pic's and said he'd return when it's stripped. I have been reassured that the removal and stripping down will be done by the Subaru trained technicians they have at the garage. I also emailed the Engineer company to let them know the discrepencies and apparent signs of incompetence that we have become a victim of. I have put a copy of it below.
With reference to the above garage, you are due to visit the garage on Monday 2/8/10 to inspect my brothers’ Subaru Imprezza , reg XXXX XXX. He has asked that I bring some points to your attention that we feel are important.
The car was given an oil service by xxxxxxxxxx on Monday19/7/10, it developed an engine fault on Saturday 24/7/10, we towed the car to xxxxxxxxxx and as it was close to close of business for the day the car was put in their service bay until Monday 26/7/10.
On Monday 26/7/10 xxxxxxxxxx said they suspected the car had suffered from major engine failure, i.e big end bearing damage. They asked both myself and my brother, on 2 separate occasions, “has the engine oil been topped up since it had its oil service? Due to the oil level showing excessively high on the dipstick” We confirmed that the oil had not been topped up by us since they had done the oil service.
This comment made to 2 people on 2 separate occasions, causes us to believe that during the oil service, too much oil was put into the engine. Having consulted Subaru specialists, this would result in the crank being somewhat immersed in the oil rather than sitting above it. The spinning of the crank would then create an oily froth or aerated oil, thus allowing insufficient oil to be pumped up into the engine and causing the engine components to come into contact with insufficient lubrication.
Having done some research on servicing this make and model, we discovered that during the oil service the new oil filter should be pre-filled with oil prior to fitting and that it’s best practice to disconnect the crank sensor following the service prior to starting the engine. This allows the engine to turn over without firing, thus the oil is distributed around the engine, the sensor is then reconnected and the engine fired up. There are numerous cases of this practice not being done during an oil service and subsequently the big end bearings suffering damage.
We asked xxxxxxxxxx if this was their practice during an oil service. They replied, “we’ve never heard of that and we don’t adopt that as part of our procedures.”. 2 days later, during a face to face discussion with xxxxxxxxxx, I asked for them to detail their actions during an oil service. As part of the explanation they, said they DID pre-fill the oil filter, contradicting what they had said previously, they weren’t aware of this procedure and they don’t do it. xxxxxxxxxx confirmed that despite having Subaru trained technicians on site, the person who carried out the oil service was NOT Subaru trained.
I have enquired with Subaru UK as to the procedure to be followed for this vehicle during an oil service. They verbally confirmed that they don’t recommend the pre-filling of the oil filter and they sent me a document detailing what the procedure is. Nowhere does this document mention pre-filling the filter, confirming the conversation.
I have a document from xxxxxxxxxx stating that they did pre-fill the new oil filter and it says THIS IS THE FACTORY PROCEDURE FOR THIS OPERATION. This is contradictory to the document from Subaru UK and to what I have been told on 2 occasions by Subaru UK and what xxxxxxxxxx had previously told us.
I have detailed the above to highlight the inconsistencies and apparent incompetence within xxxxxxxxxx and their account of what they did, we feel that the excess oil put in to the engine has had a major part to play in the resulting damage and that xxxxxxxxxx are changing their account of things to cover up a mistake on their part.
With reference to the above garage, you are due to visit the garage on Monday 2/8/10 to inspect my brothers’ Subaru Imprezza , reg XXXX XXX. He has asked that I bring some points to your attention that we feel are important.
The car was given an oil service by xxxxxxxxxx on Monday19/7/10, it developed an engine fault on Saturday 24/7/10, we towed the car to xxxxxxxxxx and as it was close to close of business for the day the car was put in their service bay until Monday 26/7/10.
On Monday 26/7/10 xxxxxxxxxx said they suspected the car had suffered from major engine failure, i.e big end bearing damage. They asked both myself and my brother, on 2 separate occasions, “has the engine oil been topped up since it had its oil service? Due to the oil level showing excessively high on the dipstick” We confirmed that the oil had not been topped up by us since they had done the oil service.
This comment made to 2 people on 2 separate occasions, causes us to believe that during the oil service, too much oil was put into the engine. Having consulted Subaru specialists, this would result in the crank being somewhat immersed in the oil rather than sitting above it. The spinning of the crank would then create an oily froth or aerated oil, thus allowing insufficient oil to be pumped up into the engine and causing the engine components to come into contact with insufficient lubrication.
Having done some research on servicing this make and model, we discovered that during the oil service the new oil filter should be pre-filled with oil prior to fitting and that it’s best practice to disconnect the crank sensor following the service prior to starting the engine. This allows the engine to turn over without firing, thus the oil is distributed around the engine, the sensor is then reconnected and the engine fired up. There are numerous cases of this practice not being done during an oil service and subsequently the big end bearings suffering damage.
We asked xxxxxxxxxx if this was their practice during an oil service. They replied, “we’ve never heard of that and we don’t adopt that as part of our procedures.”. 2 days later, during a face to face discussion with xxxxxxxxxx, I asked for them to detail their actions during an oil service. As part of the explanation they, said they DID pre-fill the oil filter, contradicting what they had said previously, they weren’t aware of this procedure and they don’t do it. xxxxxxxxxx confirmed that despite having Subaru trained technicians on site, the person who carried out the oil service was NOT Subaru trained.
I have enquired with Subaru UK as to the procedure to be followed for this vehicle during an oil service. They verbally confirmed that they don’t recommend the pre-filling of the oil filter and they sent me a document detailing what the procedure is. Nowhere does this document mention pre-filling the filter, confirming the conversation.
I have a document from xxxxxxxxxx stating that they did pre-fill the new oil filter and it says THIS IS THE FACTORY PROCEDURE FOR THIS OPERATION. This is contradictory to the document from Subaru UK and to what I have been told on 2 occasions by Subaru UK and what xxxxxxxxxx had previously told us.
I have detailed the above to highlight the inconsistencies and apparent incompetence within xxxxxxxxxx and their account of what they did, we feel that the excess oil put in to the engine has had a major part to play in the resulting damage and that xxxxxxxxxx are changing their account of things to cover up a mistake on their part.
02 August 2010, 10:37 PM
#36
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Stand Easy, just to clarify: When you say the oil level on the dipstick was "high" after the service, exactly where was it, relative to the upper "H" hole, and the notch in the side of the dipstick? Was it between the top hole and the notch? Above the notch? If above the notch, how far above it?
02 August 2010, 11:05 PM
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Stand Easy, just to clarify: When you say the oil level on the dipstick was "high" after the service, exactly where was it, relative to the upper "H" hole, and the notch in the side of the dipstick? Was it between the top hole and the notch? Above the notch? If above the notch, how far above it?
It was the garage staff who said it was high, then denied saying it
Last edited by stand easy; 02 August 2010 at 11:06 PM.
03 August 2010, 12:40 AM
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sounds like your at the mercy of this report really,either in favour of said garrage or your brother.hope you get what your after mate and turns out well for you.im a bit worried now as am doing oil change at the weekend,i will remove fuse and fill filter and let it settle then fill again,at least i will have done all thats possible.i changed oil before and filled filter but NEVER DISCONECTED FUSE OR CAM SENSOR so may have got lucky-who knows.mines an 02 sti newage so dont know if thats stronger or if that matters at all.
good luck anyhows mate -this is great thread as many can learn from your brothers situation.
good luck anyhows mate -this is great thread as many can learn from your brothers situation.
03 August 2010, 09:23 AM
#39
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Subaru cranks don't, can't, dip in the oil It is way above even the highest overfill level. So you need to lose that part of the information as it makes it look un-professional and worded without actual knowledge of the subject.
Good Luck David APi
Good Luck David APi
03 August 2010, 10:37 AM
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have you asked what oil they used to service your car, and what spec as most garages oil cheap 210L drums try and get the spec of the oil and see if it meets suabru requirements.
adam
adam
03 August 2010, 05:58 PM
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). He's spot-on Stand Easy, that explanation is not going to get you very far. Even if this was an absolutely grrrrrrooooosssss overfill, you'd need to chuck in probably twice as much oil as necessary to get the rotating/reciprocating parts wet (I tested a sump this afternoon to see how far from the brim the "full" level is). The other problem with your letter is that if (and it's a very big if) we were to assume that there was enough of an overfill to wet the crank and pistons, this would cause a significant degree of cavitation (i.e. bubbles). Thing is, these bubbles would be produced at block height, above the windage tray. Given that air bubbles naturally rise, and given that the tray is there precisely to prevent/reduce aeration, it is far from certain, under these circumstances, that cavitation caused by crank wetting, even if it were happening, would actually result in significantly aerated oil finding its way to the bottom of the sump where it can be drawn through the pickup. The logic of your argument falls down pretty big there.
The other point at which your logic falls over is that if it was overfilled to the extent you suggest, the amount of oil vapour being extracted through the vent system would have made it smoke like a chimney from the moment the car was collected after the service. It would also have sounded and run awful. Was there any evidence of any of the above?
03 August 2010, 08:00 PM
#42
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The info about the crank being immersed in the oil is what a subaru specialist told me. 
I can accept it is incorrect but i was simply relying on what I had been told, I'll have to see what impact, if any this has on our complaint.
I can accept it is incorrect but i was simply relying on what I had been told, I'll have to see what impact, if any this has on our complaint.
04 August 2010, 11:36 AM
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Grrr, for once David has beaten me to it (). He's spot-on Stand Easy, that explanation is not going to get you very far. Even if this was an absolutely grrrrrrooooosssss overfill, you'd need to chuck in probably twice as much oil as necessary to get the rotating/reciprocating parts wet (I tested a sump this afternoon to see how far from the brim the "full" level is).
The other problem with your letter is that if (and it's a very big if) we were to assume that there was enough of an overfill to wet the crank and pistons, this would cause a significant degree of cavitation (i.e. bubbles). Thing is, these bubbles would be produced at block height, above the windage tray. Given that air bubbles naturally rise, and given that the tray is there precisely to prevent/reduce aeration, it is far from certain, under these circumstances, that cavitation caused by crank wetting, even if it were happening, would actually result in significantly aerated oil finding its way to the bottom of the sump where it can be drawn through the pickup. The logic of your argument falls down pretty big there.
The other point at which your logic falls over is that if it was overfilled to the extent you suggest, the amount of oil vapour being extracted through the vent system would have made it smoke like a chimney from the moment the car was collected after the service. It would also have sounded and run awful. Was there any evidence of any of the above?
). He's spot-on Stand Easy, that explanation is not going to get you very far. Even if this was an absolutely grrrrrrooooosssss overfill, you'd need to chuck in probably twice as much oil as necessary to get the rotating/reciprocating parts wet (I tested a sump this afternoon to see how far from the brim the "full" level is). The other problem with your letter is that if (and it's a very big if) we were to assume that there was enough of an overfill to wet the crank and pistons, this would cause a significant degree of cavitation (i.e. bubbles). Thing is, these bubbles would be produced at block height, above the windage tray. Given that air bubbles naturally rise, and given that the tray is there precisely to prevent/reduce aeration, it is far from certain, under these circumstances, that cavitation caused by crank wetting, even if it were happening, would actually result in significantly aerated oil finding its way to the bottom of the sump where it can be drawn through the pickup. The logic of your argument falls down pretty big there.
The other point at which your logic falls over is that if it was overfilled to the extent you suggest, the amount of oil vapour being extracted through the vent system would have made it smoke like a chimney from the moment the car was collected after the service. It would also have sounded and run awful. Was there any evidence of any of the above?
Yeah, what he said
12 August 2010, 02:20 PM
#46
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The engine is out and stripped, it's all layed out on a bench and labelled up
The inspecting engineer has been twice and is about to write up his report. He hasn't given any clues as to his conclusion but we have to plan for the worse.
Assuming that the garage are not held responsible and taking into account the difficulty in transporting numerous engine parts, we are going to find it difficult to trust the garage with the task of rebuilding the engine. From what the garage have said it appears that the crank is the only part that requires renewing/regrinding, give or take a few small bits.
If we choose to get it done elsewhere how do we practically get the parts transferred.
The inspecting engineer has been twice and is about to write up his report. He hasn't given any clues as to his conclusion but we have to plan for the worse.Assuming that the garage are not held responsible and taking into account the difficulty in transporting numerous engine parts, we are going to find it difficult to trust the garage with the task of rebuilding the engine. From what the garage have said it appears that the crank is the only part that requires renewing/regrinding, give or take a few small bits.
If we choose to get it done elsewhere how do we practically get the parts transferred.
12 August 2010, 03:49 PM
#47
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The engine is out and stripped, it's all layed out on a bench and labelled up The inspecting engineer has been twice and is about to write up his report. He hasn't given any clues as to his conclusion but we have to plan for the worse.
Assuming that the garage are not held responsible and taking into account the difficulty in transporting numerous engine parts, we are going to find it difficult to trust the garage with the task of rebuilding the engine. From what the garage have said it appears that the crank is the only part that requires renewing/regrinding, give or take a few small bits.
If we choose to get it done elsewhere how do we practically get the parts transferred.
The inspecting engineer has been twice and is about to write up his report. He hasn't given any clues as to his conclusion but we have to plan for the worse.Assuming that the garage are not held responsible and taking into account the difficulty in transporting numerous engine parts, we are going to find it difficult to trust the garage with the task of rebuilding the engine. From what the garage have said it appears that the crank is the only part that requires renewing/regrinding, give or take a few small bits.
If we choose to get it done elsewhere how do we practically get the parts transferred.
No charge for us sending them up.
It is the sort of thing we do regularly and so far - no hassle.
David APi
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12 August 2010, 03:59 PM
#48
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Well, If you are thinking of us, I can send you up 2 secure plastic bins with self seal lids that you can put the parts in and we can then get them collected to arrive here safely. Cost to return ship the full ones about £20.00 + VAT each. Manchester area if I recall ??
No charge for us sending them up.
It is the sort of thing we do regularly and so far - no hassle.
David APi
Our new rolling road is ready to roll.
Agents for:
Simtek, the most exciting new Ecu for years
Buddy Club exhausts
Hayward & Scott exhausts
Carbonetics clutches
BC suspension
Samco hose kits
Hybrid front mount intercooler kits
AP Racing brakes and clutches
Performance friction products
And of course; the well known APi Performance Exedy organic clutch
www.apiengines.com
www.apiimpreza.com
01926 614333
No charge for us sending them up.
It is the sort of thing we do regularly and so far - no hassle.
David APi
Our new rolling road is ready to roll.
Agents for:
Simtek, the most exciting new Ecu for years
Buddy Club exhausts
Hayward & Scott exhausts
Carbonetics clutches
BC suspension
Samco hose kits
Hybrid front mount intercooler kits
AP Racing brakes and clutches
Performance friction products
And of course; the well known APi Performance Exedy organic clutch
www.apiengines.com
www.apiimpreza.com
01926 614333
12 August 2010, 04:11 PM
#49
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Yes, if you can deliver once you have some tubs, the job is sorted and we can then run through it whilst you're here and let you know what is what costwise.
David
12 August 2010, 08:46 PM
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Stand Easy,
Just out of interest . How old is your brother? What is his driving like?
How long has he had the car for and has he owned a turbo car before? Does he let it warm up or cool down etc?
Not negative just curious thats all.
Steve
Just out of interest . How old is your brother? What is his driving like?
How long has he had the car for and has he owned a turbo car before? Does he let it warm up or cool down etc?
Not negative just curious thats all.
Steve
07 September 2010, 08:46 PM
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We've had the report back, eventually. I've copied a few pages below to let yuo know what the outcome was. You'll see it's somewhat inconclusive, neither does it blame anyone nor does it clear anyone of any wrongdoing. We have a meeting at the garage tonight to see what their standpoint is and what if anything the y are willing to contribute to the repair costs.
Just got back from the garage
They have basically offered the labour FOC. They are not keen on an engine rebuild with new crank and various other parts as they feel 1.The cause of the failure may still be present after the rebuild. 2. The cost of the labour side of a rebuild is more than they feel obliged to contribute.
They are willing to fit a new short motor and transplant the parts required from the existing engine, this would require a head gasket set, new oil pump etc etc. cost to us £2500 +vat.
The other option is a new unit altogether, this would require less labour time = less £ from them, cost to us £3300+vat. We reasoned that as a new unit takes less time to fit than the short motor option, assuming the short motor is 2 days work, i.e 16 hrs labour @ £50 an hour thats £800. If the new unit is 1 days work thats £400, we asked can the £3300 +vat become £2900 +vat
So far they have spent 2 days, (£800) removing and stripping the engine, ready for inspection and they have paid for the inspection at £300, total £1100. They are now offering 1-2 days labour £4-800 to finish the job. All in they are footing a bill of approx £2k.
None of this makes the £3300+vat more affordable but it tells you how much we are NOT paying.
Reactions please
Just got back from the garage
They have basically offered the labour FOC. They are not keen on an engine rebuild with new crank and various other parts as they feel 1.The cause of the failure may still be present after the rebuild. 2. The cost of the labour side of a rebuild is more than they feel obliged to contribute.
They are willing to fit a new short motor and transplant the parts required from the existing engine, this would require a head gasket set, new oil pump etc etc. cost to us £2500 +vat.
The other option is a new unit altogether, this would require less labour time = less £ from them, cost to us £3300+vat. We reasoned that as a new unit takes less time to fit than the short motor option, assuming the short motor is 2 days work, i.e 16 hrs labour @ £50 an hour thats £800. If the new unit is 1 days work thats £400, we asked can the £3300 +vat become £2900 +vat
So far they have spent 2 days, (£800) removing and stripping the engine, ready for inspection and they have paid for the inspection at £300, total £1100. They are now offering 1-2 days labour £4-800 to finish the job. All in they are footing a bill of approx £2k.
None of this makes the £3300+vat more affordable but it tells you how much we are NOT paying.
Reactions please
07 September 2010, 11:02 PM
#55
considering the out come of the report mate id say that there being very good to you and obviously feel bad and don't won't you to have any more than you have to pay and like you and your custom so id just go with getting a new motor and be done with it,and be very grateful that your dealing with a garage such as this mate cause from the figures you just quoted it could be alot worse.
08 September 2010, 09:36 AM
#56
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Give me a call, I am sure we can save you a whole pile of money and do a rebuild with a worthwhile guarantee.
David APi
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David APi
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12 September 2010, 04:18 PM
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My bro has got set his mind on a full new unit, what are the options for him regarding his existing engine? There are obviously parts on it that are worth something, i.e cylinder head and so on, he needs some advice as to who may buy these serviceable items. BTW the garage are giving him a good discount on the price quoted above.
13 September 2010, 10:16 AM
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I don't think that Subaru UK sell a whole new engine as such. I believe that they supply short motors and heads as parts to be assembled.
But l may well be off the pace there.
David APi
But l may well be off the pace there.
David APi
13 September 2010, 07:43 PM
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Should he go down this route David, can you advise as to the best options for his original engine / parts?
Thanks