stand easy

iTrader: (2)

Hi all, although I'm a fan of the cars I'm not an owner, hope that doesnt go against me.

My brother has a 54 plate WRX with 42k on the clock. He had the 40k service done at the local Scooby dealership, this is really an independant garage that are approved Scooby repaires.

The 40 k service consists of, new oil and filter, new brake fluid and an inspection of most other stuff. He picked it up last tuesday, having been told the car is running great and there are no issues to be concerned about, basically the car was given a clean bill of health. On saturday it started making a tinny tappy noise, he drove a further 2-3 miles when the noise became a loud clunky knocking Parked it up and phoned me.

We arranged with the servicing dealership to tow it to them, fortunately it was only a mile or so away. Been back to them this morning and their initiall thought, after a quick listen is the big ends have gone Even though my mechanical know how is quite limited I'd guessed this on saturday myself. They have noticed the oil level is high on the stick I was asked "was the oil topped up after collecting it on Tuesday?" you can probably guess my reaction to this.

They need permission off my bro to take the engine out, fair enough, they have strongly suggested that they will not be paying the bill and there's no chance they can start the job till next week. What should my bro do?

Does he give permission and wait till next week for a reply, knowing their initiall "it's not going to be our fault" attitude. Also would you trust that having serviced the car only 4 days and 60 miles earlier they're going to be honest about the cause.

Need you advice and suggestions guys.

TIA

Dan

petedotuk

Ask them if they disconnected the crank sensor and turned the engine over after the oil change. Numerous occasions of big ends going after an oil change where this has not been done.

hodgy0_2

there is quite a lot of anecdotal stories/evidence regarding big end failure shortly after oil changes

a lot of people ascribe this to not following a set procedure (not Subaru recommended btw) when changing the oil

this is to disconnect the crank sensor after the engine has been filled with new oil – the hope is to build up sufficient oil pressure before the engine is started (once the oil pressure light goes out – reconnect the sensor and fire up the engine)

apparently this method is needed due to the boxer engine configuration.

I don’t really believe this and did quite a few oil/filter changes without disconnecting the crank sensor without issue

Search the forums and you will find many threads regarding this issue

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

which scooby specialist is it im having mine done tomoz

stand easy

iTrader: (2)

I'd rather not bad mouth them just yet but they are in Audenshaw Manchester

MIAMI

iTrader: (1)

Hello mate, like the previous replys there have been alot of people who have had there bottom ends go when they have replaced the oil. I do the crank senor removal proc when i change the oil just for peace of mind and only take 5 mins.

It seems that you will need to either replace the engine or go for a rebuild. The rattling seems to be the big ends and if they have diagnosed it why do they need to strip the engine even if they have adv they wont be paying for it seems to me they are trying to get every penny off you.

Splitpin

Hmmmm. Stand Easy, as has been said, you are far from the first person on here to report an apparent bearing failure shortly after a service, and far from the first with a car of that sort of age and mileage.

There are, as above, a couple of reasonably informed theories on possible causal factors, and some processes that will mitigate the worst effects, the most significant of which involved unplugging the crank position sensor (or ECU fuse) and turning the engine over on the starter to establish oil circulation and pressure prior to firing up.

The big problem your brother will face here as far as "fault" goes is that the garage will no doubt claim that they were operating a normal service procedure, and obviously there is no way for any of us, at this point, to know whether the engine was already carrying some low grade damage that just happened to reach critical mass shortly after the service (whether as a result of the service, or not).

I certainly would ask the garage whether they pre-fill their oil filters or crank the engine over to establish oil pressure prior to firing, but the result is likely to be academic either way. If they look blank and ask you wtf you're talking about, then as above, they can still claim to be following service procedure.

If I were in your (or your brother's) shoes, I would give David O'Brien at API Engines a ring and talk over the options prior to giving permission for this lot to strip the engine.

stand easy

iTrader: (2)

cheers everyone so far. i will try ringing API before anything is done other than that..havent got a clue where to start!! gutted!!

BlackV3STI

Alright mate

i live in denton manchester, i know which specialist your on about , does it begin with an L and the second begins with a G , if it is then i can honestly, they are f-o-kin ******* mate , did a service on my impreza last year and on the way back home i could smell something , so i pulled over an looked under the car and it was pissing out oil from the new filter they supposedly put on.

take it to prosport stockport , services are miles better

stand easy

iTrader: (2)

Called into the garage this morning, their attitude has softened a little. They are happy to do some investigating work, foc, i.e remove the sump and see what they find. They started this whilst I was there.

The garage are not aware of the crank sensor removal procedure and as such have never done it on the numerous oil changes they have carried out. A colleague has spoken to a friend who services the scoobys for the police up here in Mcr, they don't know about this procedure either and have had no problems following oil changes.

We need to let the investigation carry on and see what they come back with, then if it's a case of "not our fault" we will get in touch with Subaru customer services and see where we stand.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

This is why I only use Prosport (0161 432 9999)

Tony

bigsinky

are you on commission?

stand easy

iTrader: (2)

Spoke to the garage briefly today, they've suggested a meeting after closing time tomorrow to discuss whats gone on. They are backtracking on a few points, the issue of the dipstick showing too much oil, they now say it was merely a 16th too much on the stick. Why would they ask me and my bro if the oil had been topped up AFTER the service based on a mere 16th too much on the dipstick, it's making me think that oil has been adde after we've towed it in, maybe to cover up the issue of not enough oil?

They also said that both parties will probably need to seek advice, clearly they will not be admitting to much, if anything.

Can someone advise me as to what the oil grade should be and the capacity they should have put in.

Watch this space.

Black Widow

iTrader: (2)

will be watching with interest

Splitpin

I would be a little cautious about allowing the individuals who may have caused a problem to "investigate" their own work, free of charge or not, although to be honest I think your bro is going to have to suck this one up, unless there's some sort of warranty on the car.

That bit I've emboldened is a bit of a red herring, as nobody has actually suggested (or implied) that the oil change was done "wrong" in any way. The point about the crank sensor procedure is that it removes a source of potentially significant engine bearing wear/damage to occur. Just because the plod and your local lot don't do it, doesn't mean it ain't a thoroughly good idea. The logic behind it is very simple.

While it's impossible to comment with certainty having not seen the car, it would be reasonable to surmise that the engine was carrying some degree of bearing damage before it went for service, and that the stress caused by running it effectively "dry" and unlubricated for a few seconds after the oil change worsened that damage significantly enough for the bearing to become for it to be pushed beyond a sustainable level, becoming audible a short distance later.

It may well be that a contributor to existing damage may have been prior oil changes performed in the manner this recent was, but that's academic now.

Hmmmm, there's an element of 2+2 = 12436 there. You said in your first post that the oil level was high, so doesn't that rule out any being added after the fact?

Also, if the oil was significantly underfilled to the point where oil pickup was being compromised, your brother would likely have seen the oil pressure light coming on as the car was being driven, prior to the failure becoming apparent. Was that the case?

If the oil level was a bit high, how high was it, in relation to the upper hole (not notch) on the stick?

The isn't one specific grade of oil that is considered correct. Any good quality oil from 5w/40 to around 15w/50 should work fine. As to capacity, the correct amount to put in is the amount needed to raise the level to the top hole of the stick when the engine is hot. That is likely to be just under 4.5 litres on a car with the single scroll sump, or just under 4 litres on a car with the newer twinscroll sump. The exact quantity necessary depends on a couple of issues - firstly whether or not the filter is pre-filled, and also how much oil remains in the engine when the sump plug is put back in.

One question to ask the garage would be whether they filled the sump with a specific quantity of oil or whether they filled it manually to the stick. This is likely to be academic though as it is difficult to envisage a scenario where an overfill or a small underfill would cause a bearing failure in short order.

stand easy

iTrader: (2)

The reason I mention the oil level issue is that if too much or too little was put in then it raises enough doubt as to their competence and expertease. If we can raise doubt that correct procedures were not followed then we will have some strenght to our argument that they were negligent.
The oil level was showing high, according to them, between us taking the car back on the saturday and visiting the garage on the monday. More than enough time for the "technician" to realise his mistake, if there was one, and try to rectify it.

I've spoken to a mechanical engineer this morning and he said it was CRUCIAL that the oil filter be primed as part of the procedure, if we find out it wasn't then we have an advantage.

stand easy

iTrader: (2)

Had the meeting with the garage tonight. The car was up on the ramp, before any staff turned up we had a look underneath. Baically the sump is off, exposing the fuel pump and the crank.

The big end nearst the cabin, number 4 I think, has "thrown a shell" I believe the term is. Consequently the big end is rattling against the crankshaft. The shell has then broken up into tiny fragments and travelled around the lubrication system in the oil. The sump has a coating of filings in it and the oil pump has fragments in it.

There were 3 garage staff and 3 of us, this is a family run firm, established in the 30's. The MD is the father of the garage manager, they come across as people of integrity. I mention these points because we're not dealing with tattoed, shaven headed spanner monkeys, by looks anyway.

Today I spoke to Subaru UK technical servicing to establish what their recommended procedure is for an oil change on this model. They faxed me a copy of there manual on this section, nowhere does it mention prefilling the oil filter prior to fitting, or disconnecting the crank sensor. It basically says"replace sump lug, renew filter, fill engine with oil, run for a short while, top up if required". If the garage state their procedure is the same, then they are simply following the manufacturers guidance.

Earlier this week the garage stated that their practice didn't include pre filling the filter prior to fitting, they weren't aware of this procedure and as such have never done it and have never had any issues by not doing so. Tonight, when I asked "what is your procedure for an oil change, tell me from start to finish" They said that they DID prefill the filter prior to fitting. I reminded them what I had been told earlier in the week. They then produce a document, which I now have, stating their actions from the point the car was brought in for service. It states that the oil filter was pre filled prior to fitting and in bold letters THIS IS FACTORY PROCEDURE FOR THIS OPERATION. Not according to the fax I received today from Subaru Technical Servicing!!!???

I strongly suspect that they realise this is what is best practice to do and as such they are now saying they ALWAYS do it. Contradicting what they said earlier in the week. They admitted that the technician who worked on the car is NOT Subaru trained!!!???
The conclusion to the meeting was that we agreed to them paying for an independant, motor engineer to come and inspect the car, he will then go away whilst the engine is removed and stripped to a degree. Then he will return to see what he finds and make a report.

They've suggested a rebuild wouldn't be an idea due to the damage caused by the metal fragments travelling around the engine. At this stage they think a new engine is the only reliable solution, at a cost of £3k to them and the same to us. They muted that the labour would be vastly discounted. This is not an option as my bro doesn't have £3k, all we can do is wait for the report from the engineer.

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

Im afraid i have to be honest and say that you havent got a leg to stand on mate as the fax from subaru says,they do not recommend pre filling the filter so regardless wether the garage concerned did or not it doesnt matter,and coming from experience[run a garage myself] i have never suffered any problems with the method of not pre filling and pre filling so as already been stated the engine must have had wear with in the big end bearings before service and the new/thinner oil just brought this wear to its conclusion failure.
Your brother will just have to bite the bullet and get a new motor or secondhand unit as trying to fight it wiil get no where,i might be being alittle bit harsh but i wouldnt want you to waste time and money fighting a loosing battle mate and sorry for the situation it cant be nice for all concerned,good luck with it though

stand easy

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for your comments, the garage are not of the attitude that we don't have a leg to stand on, they wouldnt offer to pay for an independant engineers report if they were. They said if they are shown to be at fault then they will put things right.

The fax from Subaru simply doesn't mention the pre filling of the filter, my argument at the moment is that they are contradicting themselves which shows inconsistences and/or incompetence. If we can prove incompetence we may have some leverage to raise doubt as to the quality of the work they did. I dont expect this to turn out in our favour but as we have yet not incurred any charges, we have lost nothing so far, when the point comes that we need to pay then we may have to re think.

With a quote of £3k for a new engine we are happy to pursue this as far as we can.

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

appreciate that mate as its alot to swallow,id hate to be in your shoe's right nowas i said i hope it works out alright for you and your brother

nick172sport

iTrader: (6)

pm sent well i had my oil change done on tuesday the correct method so we will see

Splitpin

Eh? Slight clarification here: The fuel pump is at the back of the car, in the fuel tank, while the oil pump (which I presume you're referring to) is bolted to the front of the block and not exposed via the removal of the sump. What exactly were you able to see?

Ummm, I'm not sure whether you've got the wrong end of the stick somewhere but at no point has anyone here claimed that the removal of the crank position sensor is part of an approved (i.e. written) Subaru service procedure. It isn't, and never has been. I mentioned in #7 that the garage will no doubt be able to claim that they would have been following a normal service procedure and thus you will have minimal grounds to claim negligence against them, and so your enquiry has proved.

I also mentioned in #15 that while common or garden service centres may not do it, it doesn't mean it isn't a thoroughly good idea - which is why the extra steps tend to be carried out at many Subaru specialists.

Incidentally, you will also note that the fax you have received from International Motors makes no mention of priming (i.e. pre-filling) the oil filter, despite your engineer previously remarking that this was "crucial".

Part of the problem you are facing here is that Subaru/IM Group are stuck between a rock and a hard place in that while the logic of pre-filling the filter and cranking the engine prior to start is pretty much unarguable, if they were to acknowledge the point and change their formal servicing procedures, they would potentially be opening themselves to claims from individuals like your brother who could claim (justifiably or otherwise) that engine damage was caused by an incorrect or incomplete oil change. As such from their point of view, adopting the Gordon Brown approach and denying that the budget defect is a problem is pretty much the only one they can adopt, no matter what the reality.

Interesting. So where did this "document" spring from? Do they have any way of demonstrating that it was in existence before the car was serviced, or is your belief that it was cobbled up after the fact in response to you relaying the engineer's comments?

Quite. It would be interesting to hear exactly what you can say about the veracity of this document. Given that, as you said in your earlier posts, the idea of pre-filling the filter and cranking the engine was totally alien to them when you first discussed it, it seems more than a little contradictory to now see them claim that one of these two extra procedures was performed.

That seems a reasonable suspicion in the circumstances. However if their earlier confirmation that the filter was not filled was merely verbal, I'm not sure where it gets you.

Without seeing the extent of the damage it is impossible to comment with authority but in general terms that sounds like b*ll*cks. If all it's done is rattle a bearing, there's no reason to believe a thorough cleaning (and replacement of necessary parts) won't result in a perfectly reliable engine.

A full (and reliable, warranted) rebuild with uprated components in certain areas could be performed for considerably less than £2000 all-in so on this basis alone the £6k estimate is ridiculous.

Their proposal suggests either that they are unaware how to properly strip, clean and rebuild an engine, or that they would rather just offer the option that, as far as they are concerned, gives them the least possible opportunity to f*** up. I would also be interested to hear whether this supposed £6000 cost represents an entire, brand new, crated, complete WRX engine from IM, a new short/long engine or whatever. Even for a full new unit it sounds like a high number, suggesting that it isn't really a 50/50 deal.

However, in some ways, their offer to stand part of the rebuild cost is more than you could reasonably expect. Given what you've described so far the garage would be on pretty safe ground telling you to get thoroughly stuffed. The fact that they haven't would appear to be to their credit - albeit that the seeming shift in their position re. the oil filter sounds a little odd. Although of course we only have your description of events to go on (which isn't a criticism or insinuation, merely a statement of fact).

The bottom line is that there are any number of reasons why your brother's engine has failed. The crank sensor disconnect thing is a very effective way to reduce if not eliminate a possible wear vector). However, that still leaves all sorts of factors on the table, including poor/infrequent intermediate maintenance, poor quality oil in the past(and/or inappropriate change intervals), extreme levels of hard driving, a failing engine sensor causing detonation (and hammering the bearing til it fails), etc. etc. The service may have been completely irrelevant, while it may also be that the temporary oil starvation encountered on first start after the oil change was the straw sufficient to break an already limping camel's back.

Indeed if the oil change was a contributor to the engine damage, chances are that every such change the engine had received prior to this point incremented the problem a little bit, until it reached the point where the bearing was unviable under normal operating load.

There are a number of good threads on here on both oil changes (and considerations arising therefrom), and indeed engine failures shortly after them. A click of the Search button would probably help you. You could do worse than start with this one, and Hopper's follow-up here, as the circumstances are near identical.

Splitpin

BTW, if you haven't phoned API yet, do so tomorrow.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

I've lost track of how many times we've been here before with poor folk who've had less than good service at a garage - be it a dealer or an independent.

Clearly the garage in question have no idea about Subaru, as taking the sump off is a fruitless exercise with not much to see. [ try doing the same on an RX7 rotary, there's even less to see !! ]

There are many instances of bearing failure after a service and it is a well known phenomenon. It even happened to us once, where a perfectly well run in car had just completed a running at 1000 miles on a new APi engine, running perfectly. We did an oil change and 20 minutes later it is a steaming wreck again beside the M40.

No idea why, We fixed it FOC of course and did our best to patch up relations and l am glad to say the customer continued with us after that, until he ended up with a different make car.

I wouldn't let the garage attempt a repair - they are clearly unfamiliar with Subarus and it will turn into a saga. I doubt they'll fudge any findings BUT it will be totally inconclusive about why it has happened and they will offer to rebuild it at a cost to you that may reflect some goodwill.

The question is; do you want someone who doesn't know Subaru repairing the most expensive piece of the car ??

NO? - Thought not.

David APi

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

?????

sc_sjo

iTrader: (7)

Out of interest David@API, how much do you charge for a standard rebuild of a MY99 engine? I couldn't find prices on your website.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

We don't do menu pricing as every situation is different and some people want just a safe cheap repair and others want a full up upgrade for mega power.

There are options for 2.0, 2.1 which seems to have created a market all of its own, 2.33, and 2.5. So the variables of engine and year model of car are too many for a menu.

l'll pm some options for you from a simple repair to a back to day one standard rebuild.

UNLESS you want more power from a stronger motor??

David APi

sc_sjo

iTrader: (7)

Thanks. In this instance I was referring to an OEM blueprint rebuild.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Subaru dont do blueprinted engines F1 cars do but that may be a little out of your budget

Tony

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

OK that's easy enough An APi standard ' blueprint ' rebuild is £1800.00 + VAT on that engine.

That brings everything back to new original spec except for oversize pistons and bores. NEW crank, ACL race bearings, weight matched and balanced rods, APi upgraded oil pump, valve seats recut, valves lapped, shims reset, heads chemically cleaned, Cam lobes checked for lift and duration. Valve spring heights set STi gaskets. New cam belt, oil filter fitted, ready to drop in.

Various other small things we do that set our engines aside from others.

Good luck call if I can help more.

David