dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Andy, why would I want to copy any of your or any other ecutek dealers maps?

Alan Jeffery

Of course some aren't at all bothered about "Ethics"

adehook

lol, so which is better ......

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I agree.

I would always use one of my own maps as a starting point for a mapping session and build from there upwards to the final result. But then I have mapped almost all years and models quite a few times now to great effect. Some that haven't been doing it for as long or lack in fundamental knowledge may be tempted to take a shortcut.

Personally I believe it is dangerous to copy maps on to other vehicles - every car is different and one size does not fit all.

scoobiewrx555

IMHO I think the reality is that EcuTek UK would like to convince everyone of how genuinely concerned they are about their customers and the Subaru tuning scene in general what with OS and ECUedit being a bunch of amateurs and those tuners shouldn't be allowed anywhere near your ECU because they'll do a lousy job or they'll just steal a tuners maps to guarantee a good result. Hillarious!! What a load of old tosh!!

Let's face it the truth is really more about being very concerned about how much danger they are in of losing their all mighty grip and total monopoly on Subaru tuning, and that in turn spells lost revenues for them and their dealers regardless of how solid their dealers reputations are. I think eventually some reputable dealers will be tempted to join the OS revolution and drop EcuTek altogether or run it alongside despite how much EcuTek themselves hate that!!

All i'm getting right now from the EcuTek side of things is a 'holier than thou' attitude and trying to convince everyone of just how bad and unethical OS and ECUedit are. That just smacks of desperation and a genuine concern about their own futures. Regardless of just how much business they enjoy currently without having to advertise that won't always be the case.

Let's face it....Competiton is a bitch and up until now you haven't had any!!

ETA: EcuTek dealers thinking OS/ECUedit isn't ever going to be genuine competiton shows the kind of arrogance that topples dictatorships!!

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Hi Andy, I'll concede ECUEdit(the software that can read ECUTek locked ECU's) has probably come about from some reverse engineering of the ECUTek software, but this has nothing to do with OS. RomRaider and ECUFlash were 100% built from the ground up and have nothing to do with ECUTek hacking.

Splitpin

Andy - I'm not Duncan but as you know I have no vested interests on either side of this discussion, and a considerable technical overview, albeit that my specific understanding of what EcuTeK are doing viz "security" is next to non-existent.

Anyway, to address your question, it certainly is possible that efforts in certain quarters have been (and probably still are) being directed at looking at what EcuTeK do and indeed I'd be amazed if some of the fruits of this activity hadn't found their way into some of the open source projects - even if the ethics of the majority involved are absolutely top class. As has been said, there are others who aren't so honest.

However...

It is also perfectly technically feasible that EcuTeK licenced ECUs can be read and copied (at least in the past) without even seeing TeK's software. The reason is no more sinister than the fact that every Subaru ECU from 99MY onwards, right from the day it leaves the factory, allows the ROM to be read by the same method that allows live diagnostic data, trouble codes and so-forth to be looked at by an external interface.

If you know how you can use the command to read just what you want, or alternatively you can take an image of the entire firmware in a couple of minutes. No deliberate espionage is required, the functionality is right there as standard in the ECU - and, I suspect, without it, S. Done would never have been able to do what he did in the beginning.

Your comment about "EcuTeK's security systems" is a little bit of a red herring. I would very much imagine that for the first few years of its life, TeK probably didn't employ any active security systems, relying on the fact that they were the only game in town and had a tightly locked down software distribution policy. Therefore only their licensed agents had access to their tools, and consequently the ability to read and reprogram, as a result, there was simply no need to do any work on "protection"

I'm reminded of a story in the papers the other week about Taliban forces "hacking" into the video feeds from US unmanned drones over Afghanistan. The Talibs were able to access the video because it wasn't encrypted. The reason it wasn't encrypted was because encryption increases processing bandwidth on the planes, satellites, groundstations and all that, and the US didn't think the Talibs would ever develop the ability to intercept it... Oops.

Now, of course, others have worked out the methodology of reprogramming the processors, and that, all of sudden, removes EcuTeK's control of the market, as well as creating a scenario where there are individuals out there with the ability to flash an ECU, but, possibly, without the knowledge needed to actually map it - which creates the market for firmware images used by established tuners.

The fundamental problem, as I said before, is that these ECUs were never intended to be secure in the manner you're now hoping for - and trying to tack such protection onto them after the fact is frankly pretty futile.

If it wasn't so commercially sensitive I'd be genuinely interested to know what measures TeK have actually taken to protect their tuners, as I can't help but think that the answer would turn out to be "not much".

There isn't very much you can do to prevent the sort of copying you mention, without at least partially breaking compatibility with Subaru's workshop diagnostic tools. Even then, for anyone with the detailed knowledge, there are other ways to do it, and ways to counteract most of the technical countermeasures EcuTeK might implement, given the limitations of the hardware.

These ECUs are not secure computing devices, and they never will be. That is an unfortunate but unavoidable truth - and as I've said before, if they were, EcuTeK would never have come into existence.

Splitpin

You've just answered your own question there, surely? You may know the value of starting from a base map that you know and understand, but there are others around with different views.

I've just tried (and failed) to find the URL, but someone posted a thread a few weeks back asking opinions on some tuning company who was offering to map their car for cheap. The website included an absolutely gargantuan, boring and dreadfully written page of terms and conditions which alongside making clear that the "mapper" was not responsible for anything that might go wrong with the car as a result of using his services.

Part of this stated explanation was that all firmware used was "preset" maps obtained from other sources - and that the "service" provided by the "mapper" was merely providing this firmware and programming it onto the car's ECU.

I'm not sure what's worse, allowing some illiterate dullard to map a car, or allowing the same dullard to flash a map of totally unknown providence, that may or may not suit the car - but may at least have been done by someone who knows the difference between 0xAF and 0xFA (hexadecimal joke for you there).

Perfectly true. Unfortunately doesn't change the fact that the existence of tools downloadable for free on the interwebs creates a culture where anyone with the willingness to do so can set themselves up as "a mapper", no matter what their skillset or intentions.

scoobiewrx555

Any Desno ECU, EcuTek'd or otherwise can be reflashed on the bench via the BDM port that every board has as a matter of course these days so board and software developers can make changes to the firmware as and when they like. Conversely contents of the eeprom can be read and disassembled easily enough so in the beginning this is how it was done by EcuTek and OS, and it's well documented by OS anyway. IdaPro and other dissamblers are openly and easily available as is software to read hex and bin files for MAP identification purposes like WinOls and Damos.

How ECUedit did it i have no idea but perhaps if EcuTek didn't lock out ECU's after 2006 or make it it so bloody hard for OS tuners to just simply overwrite EcuTek without hassle then perhaps EcuTek wouldn't be so much of a 'red rag to a bull' for hackers. The locking of ECU's is just pure and simple greed and nothing to do with security!!

When you tell some people they can't or shouldn't and you give them a good enough reason...they end up doing it anyway and successfully so!!

EcuTek are their own worst enemy, not OS!!

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Is the answer 0x4B?
Scary forum that OS site, those engine builders are going to have a great time in the states

Tony

PS yes I got the joke

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Ah, your general misconception is incorrect, very few people will do it successfully otherwise there would be no need to pay for it, engine building on the other hand will become a past time that most wont be enjoying.....

You have to understand that not everyone is good at everything, you could be a good bus driver, I might make a terrible bus driver but i could fix watches due to a steady hand and delicate touch, you may mash watches up.... see what im saying?

OS will be its own worst enemy due to people not understanding it or vehicle mechanics.

Tony

scoobiewrx555

Those that mess about with black magic and hurt themselves or others will next time be more than happy to leave it to a real wizard to cast a spell that works.

No misconceptions, e.g. look at the chinese. They are not only very good at making copies but often re-engineer to make said copies better anc cheaper. The japs were very good at this back in the 50's...look where they are now

Just because you are the originator of something and initially make some big commercial gains it doesn't mean to say that someone won't come along and make it bigger, better and cheaper. In this case FOC!!

I think they call it competition

Alan Jeffery

Talking of "Ethics" you'll be shocked to hear this one..

One of our customers posted on another Scooby site that he was going to have his car mapped by us using Ecutek software. With that, a "travelling mapper" posted on the thread, in plain view, ie not even a PM, that he could do it "much cheaper". After doing that, he paid us a "friendly" visit, having already spoken to us about doing just that. Despite knowing the above, although he didn't know we knew, we made him welcome, showed him around, gave him a cup of untampered with coffee and didn't tie him up and throw him into the skip, despite severe temptation to the contrary.
We knew he was down our way "mapping" presumably all "on the cheap"
As far as ethics go, we can hold our head up in company, but I don't know about this other character.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

I can name one major company that does this (its also chinese) but thats a different subject (industrial espionage, because thats exactly what it is that this company did and still does). And the better is debatable though the Times I think did a great article on it and about national security, but as I have said, different subject for a different time

Tony

Splitpin

That doesn't automatically apply. I imagine, especially in the current economic circumstances, and with the ever-declining cost of used cars, that there will be no shortage of punters after a cheap remap, and equally that many of them will be superficially pleased with what we would regard as a bodge job, given that their car will feel quicker afterwards.

They'll have no idea whether they could have got an even better job done with someone else, and they'll also most likely have no idea whether their engine is slowly (or quickly) detting itself to oblivion afterwards.

There seems to be plenty of leeway for the lower end of the market to "get by", especially if there is a deliberate intent to leech off the work of the reputable mapping community where possible.

I wish I could find that disclaimer I was referring to earlier, as aside from anything else, the spelling and grammar was so p*ss-poor that anyone availing themselves of that individual's "service" would either clearly not have read the small print, or be as thick as the proverbial two short pieces of wood themselves. Says a lot.

scoobiewrx555

Individuals masquerading as mappers that write dangerous remaps resulting in casualties will soon be found out regardless of what software they use as word does eventually get around not to touch them with anybody's long one!!

It's true to say though......Those that buy Subaru's and mod on the cheap will always get exactly what they paid for. 'Fire and Brimstone' is cheap so if you let any Tom, Dick or Harriet touch your P&J's ECU 'Fire and Brimstone' is exactly what you'll get, and that serves you bloody right!!

Equally i have no doubt these people whatever they paid for a remap will go out and needlessly kill their engine shortly afterwards anyway by virtue of the way they normally drive their car to destruction while exploiting this new found bhp. There's no helping them however you map it!!

£350-400+VAT is a fair price to pay for an OS remap when done by an experienced tuner that's put his/her time and effort into creating a bespoke remap specifically tailored to your car. On the day that's 3-4hrs work + extra time for diagnosing and fixing the usual suspects as almost always has to be done.

A charlatan charging next to bugger all for a remap will no doubt just flash your car and go. What happens thereafter has nothing to do with him any more as he will have washed his hands and disappeared into the night!!

That's the only drawback i see with OS and it's a shame as this will happen over and over again until such time as a select number of OS mappers have as good a reputation as the current select bunch of top EcuTek Mappers to whom people go to instinctively.

I mean that in the most complimentary terms.

Andy.F

No problem Paul, I apologise if I have offended any of the genuine OS and ECUflash/Romraider enthusiasts out there that just go creating their own maps.
So apparently its this EcuEdit software which the one thats hacking into and reverse engineering Ecutek software ? Then they apparently offer to undercut the Ecutek product ? Sounds just a shade unethical to me to say the least. Is EcuEdit a product that they charge for ?
Wonder who is using that approach ?

I like the way Simtek ECU's require dealers need to agree to map information transfer which to my knowledge has always happened without issue between established and respecting tuners, (rolling road banter aside ) it certainly has between Alan/Martin and AFP in the past.
Ecutek may have been better taking this route rather than locking everyone out and creating what could become a 'black market' for stolen maps now !! However, as mentioned by splitpin, this may not even be possible on this type of device ?

Andy

Andy.F

Oh I don't know, perhaps you may just find just something of interest in there ? Particularly on a big bhp build where it can be fraught with peril manipulating and optimising AVCS, wastegate, knock control, timing advance or lean mixtures at say 7500rpm and 2.2 bar of boost ?

Let me ask you this question, when Pat Herborn and Paul Blamire at Zen spent many hours mapping your Time Attack car for you, did you completely wipe it and start again so you could call it your own map


Andy

MartynJ

And long may it continue Andy,

Martyn

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Andy - please stick to facts rather than trying very hard to discredit me. I take it as a compliment that you are going out of your way to try and do this.

Pat has not mapped the Solaris ecu my car.
Paul has not mapped the Solaris ecu in my car. He explored why power was down after the first TA round this year on the dyno when running an experimental turbo. Changed the turbo and power was back on MY map.

Pat and Paul both helped me prior to qualifying at TA Snetterton to work around a failing crank sensor adjusting the voltage range for the crank sensor for it to be able to judge a cycle. Having the designer of the ECU/software there and only one chance to get it right in qualifying to wint the TA title for the year - it made perfect sense to ask the expert on his ecu how he would get around the issue...... In exactly same way you did when trying to solve the flat shifting issue on your car. It would be foolish not to.

Now back to the debate or is it personal attacks now?

Andy.F

My information was from your own posts. Pat installed your ECU up at Scoobyclinic and done the initial map on it to a driveable standard and that latterly Pat and Paul had used their experience to sort out some problems you had with it. Hardly a personal attack !!
Neither Pat nor Paul managed to sort my flat shifting issue but thats doesn't matter here !

Back to the debate, I'm still curious to know if you are using this commercial EcuEdit software to hack into Ecutek maps ?

Andy

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Pat loaded a base map so that we could get it started up there but that is where that ended - the driveability (and beyond was done by me). The point about it being a personal attack is that mapping of the Solaris ecu has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion as you correctly say (after you brought it up in the first place)

Yes. EcuEdit is the only tool available at the moment that can allow writing to a previously mapped ecu that has been done in the past 2 years or so. Aside from this ability, the xml definitions used within that software product are from the open source community and continually evolving discovering new tables, functions and abilities beyond those that exist within ecutek.

It is a question of regaining the ownership of the ecu by the owner of the car and allowing them the choice of who maps it rather than being locked in to using an ecutek dealer.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

I dont think it is a question just directed at yourself duncan, any tom dick or harry shouldnt be able to download a prodrive map or anyone elses map. They make personal gain from looking at it even if they never program a car with it.
Why should a mapper who has spent a long time learning to map, a lot of money in sw etc have their map stolen by someone who just bought a lead and downloaded sw from the net?
Why should ecutek spend thousands on r+d (temp controlled enclosed dyno cell, numerous cars and staff) and develope things like megarom, racerom for its dealers only for os to download and use.
If os was kept separate and there was no ecutek map unlock sw created and it stood on its own feet then there would be no question of its honesty and integretty.
Unfortunatly for os this hasnt and continues not to be the case.
Simon

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

Its easy to see it that way.
However if it was all just about the money ecutek would sell the sw to anyone.
They wont.

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

FFS, OS users CANNOT read/write to ECUTek locked ROMs, please recognise the difference. ECUEdit is not OS and costs about $300 for the full software.

adehook

people moan that remaps are expencive , yet your charged around 500 quid for 2 or 3 hours work, yet the same people who moan will pay 300 for a 5 minute reflash from the autotrader.

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

How do you define it is or isnt os as the os original idea, concept wasnt to be used as a means of making money and it is now used by people to map and charge etc it appears from reading this thread as all against ecutek (cobb getting the odd mention) and the rest os.

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

No comprendo...

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

You said it wasnt os hacking ecutek a minute ago? Now you say it is?

Jolly Green Monster

iTrader: (4)

There seems to be no division between the two.
Even someone defending os cant get it right.
Os mappers mapping for money seem to use ecuedit the op was asking about paying for a remap