bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

I'm more than comfortable with allowing the owner of the ECU full control over his property yes. I don't think it morally correct to steal and redistribute another persons map, absolutely not.

Some of the recent developments in the EVO and Subaru OS ROM's have surpassed what ECUTek have to offer, who's driving development now? Whats stopping ECUTek applying the Tephra/John Banks hacks to their ROM's for future use, and is this new 'RaceROM' that ECUTek have coming out a development/copy of the GroupN ROM JSarv and co have been developing for the last 3/4 months?

Interesting times ahead......

Andy.F

Paul

I have had the Subaru group N SD ROM for 2-3 years now. Racerom is a different project.

The only Ecutek mapped ECU that I have had a customer ask for OS access to was your own spec C, that was after I had mapped it a few times for you for different specs, to your satisfaction on each occasion I believe.
Once you started experimenting with OS then it was understandable that you would like to tweek your own map but unfortunately as we found out, that was not possible at that time. As you know, that was news to me as well !! I don't make the Ecutek policys although I did complain to them regards this issue !

cheers

Andy

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Yes I said that and for a reason, there are no "real" controls on the developement of OS software, its add a bit here then someone adds a bit there, unless you can keep 100% tabs on it you may encounter "issues".

Something that is "controlled" is a more viable application as its checked before release, OS... well its just released by the looks and then you fix what you find is wrong with it...

Linux was similar, but it had some good people working on it, still its not as popular as microsoft, though that doesnt mean microsoft is better

Tony

just123

iTrader: (1)

Does anybody know if an MY99 can be remapped via this open source stuff some people say you can others say it only can only be done via ecutek flash99

Splitpin

I recall you received some comprehensive answers the last time you asked this question. Nothing has changed in the meantime. Short answer is no - if you want a proper job done, find your nearest good TeK mapper.

just123

iTrader: (1)

I have been trying to contact my ecutek local mapper with no reply, i dont think he actually exists or maybe he has too much money he does'nt give a toss

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Or maybe it is Christmas and he isn't as sad as the rest of us

Ecutek for the 99/00 is the only way.

just123

iTrader: (1)

Been trying for weeks to contact him, also he is just as sad as the rest of us cos he's posted today a few times, maybe not quite as sad as you though and ur sad car

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

eggy790

iTrader: (20)

why the dig at dynamix? take the banter with a pinch of salt dnt let it get to you

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Which ecutek mapper ?

Andy.F

Oh, I think it maybe could be me ??
The thing is, I come on here for a bit banter, usually during hols, evenings, lunch breaks etc.
My business emails I try to action during more normal working hours.
It can be tricky finding the balance when your hobby is also your occupation !

cheers

Andy

Splitpin

Put the handbag down, raise your hands above your head and step backward slowly.

Just - You've demonstrated a habit on here of repeatedly asking either the same, or very narrow variations of the same question, to the point where it's tempting to, rather than give you a straight answer, just post a link to a search string that will miraculously lead you back to one of your own threads.

You've turned changing your turbo - a fundamentally simple task - into a right old saga. I literally shuddered when I saw you starting yet another thread asking whether a VF35 would be better than a VF29 the other day. Bearing in mind you've already asked all this stuff August-September time, had that escapade with the broken VF28, and have bought something else, surely you should just settle where you are and go forward from there? I've seen single celled animals that are more decisive!

If I happened to be the mapper you were talking about, and you adopted the same outlook, after a while I'd be tempted to do something else too, as you give the impression that all you want to do is ask questions without actually doing anything that might justify my time.

All intended as constructive criticism - hope it's received in the same light.

RA Dunk

PMSL!!

mickywrx

iTrader: (29)

Indeed. Repetive asking of the same question, becomes annoying and tends to be ignored.

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

Yeah I think between me an my bro we've spet a good couple of grand with you, no issues there! I would have thought my brothers car would have been a good candidate for the SD ROM. I still can't log that car, Romraider, ECUEdit and ECUTek Deltadash just bork out about 4K, then reconnects about 5.5k.

Andy.F

The group N, S-D rom has its uses but it wouldn't be my first choice for a road car, I have ran with it on my own Spec C but prefer the full twin map 'megarom' as we used on your own Spec C and your brothers Spec C and then latterly his JDM Sti on the big turbo.

You have PM re the logging

ahar

iTrader: (3)

I'm sure a debate on a car forum about open source will quickly get boring for the others but the is no reason why an OS project would be any less controlled than commercial development. The Linux kernal is a good example of a tightly controlled project - done better than some of the commercial software projects I've seen cetainly!

There are plenty of commercial software projects that chuck out a half tested app as they need to meet marketing / revenue deadlines - the difference is that with os you can see the bug list andchoose whether it is stable enough, whereas it's use and hope with commercial software!

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Andy: You should be able to protect your work under current copyright legislation easily and take action against anyone copying your maps.

Imitation is the biggest form of flattery

Splitpin

That's generally true, but sweeping generalisations don't always apply. This is a highly specific scenario where one company has had the market to itself for a number of years - and thus the normal commercial pressures that would apply to software development haven't applied in the usual ways. You could suggest (rightly or wrongly) that this might have created a situation where EcuTeK could have sat back and, quite literally, watch the money rolling in, without being under any specific pressure to improve their product.

Then, of course, a competitor pops up in the form of the various alternative projects, and one could see EcuTeK responding to that in a number of different ways - from denial that it will amount to anything, from a desire to try and shut down the competition, to a realisation that there is a need to offer better value for money, and at least match the refinements the alternatives offer.

However, on the flipside, while there no doubt are a large number of people involved with the alternative projects for only the best of intentions, there also seems to be an increasing number of people who are used to downloading mp3's for nothing, and believe they're entitled to do the same with ECU firmware and map data and will do whatever they feel is necessary to get it. You've only got to look at the prat posting further up this thread for an example.

One of the unpalatable truths about the "open source" ECU projects is that some of the information being discussed on the forums concerned appears to have been extracted from purloined copies of EcuTeK software, rather than direct reverse engineering of the control units themselves.

While I'm sure that represents a minority of the "community", and that information gained in that manner represents a minority of the information pool with which they're working, it's cheating. Clearly highly unethical (at very least), and also presents the direct risk that any bugs or errata present in the software being copied are passed into the open knowledgebase without checking or correction.

As I said some time ago, the whole thing is now a very murky area, with the good intentions of some being spoiled by the actions of a few.

Splitpin

Pull the other one Bob, it's got jingle bells on it. If you know anything about the real world application of copyright legislation, you'll know that from both a time and economics point of view, it's almost impossible for a small business or single person to recover damages resulting from this sort of theft in a practical and cost-effective manner.

This is why the record and film industries have taken to tactics which are themselves barely legal in order to "convince" distributors of downloaded material to cease their activity out of court.

Plus, as I mentioned earlier, the whole concept of copyright and IP on ECU firmware is a minefield anyway.

And one of the most popular forms of theft.

Alan Jeffery

Sorry Andy, I didn't know you did Time Attack?

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Busman's holiday, eh?

Andy.F

I must get down to your dyno again sometime now that it can improve handling

Alan Jeffery

Well, when you came down last time, you did ask what you had to do to own your own dyno, on the basis that it was clearly possible to find power in a way you couldn't if you didn't have one! Our recall is practically word perfect on that one, but you did have a long drive back home to forget yours

I'd say being quick in Time Attack certainly requires grace as well as pace, if you get my meaning.

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

"One of the unpalatable truths about the "open source" ECU projects is that some of the information being discussed on the forums concerned appears to have been extracted from purloined copies of EcuTeK software, rather than direct reverse engineering of the control units themselves."

Examples?

scoobiewrx555

I can't speak for ECUedit as you pay for that and it isn't OS software, but Romraider and ECUflash are both here as a result of extensive reverse engineering of Newage Denso ECU's and bugger all to do with hacking EcuTek software.

In fact one of Enginuity/RomRaider founders has just been poached by COBB to go and work as a development engineer for them. That clearly says that a mainstream remap software/hardware company see OS as genuine competition and have not only jumped at the chance but see great value in hiring a highly talanted individual that worked for the opposition. COBB might think they have one up on RomRaider/ECUflash but that's not the case as others have picked up the mantle and are already running with it so OS will live on!!

If you go right the way through the RomRaider and NASIOC forums you'll see just how much in-depth reverse engieering has been done and a lot of it is documented. These chaps genuinely know their stuff.

OS is nothing to do with EcuTek hacking so it's about time EcuTek mappers stopped listening to and repeating the bull**** proganda EcuTek HQ keep putting out about OS. If ECUedit is their gripe then fine, i don't use it anyway, but FFS stop whinging about OS and just make EcuTek bigger and better.

Also as no EcuTek mappers have answered my question about ECU locking and not disclosing this to customers i can only take it that you are too embarrased to say no you don't tell or disclose this to customers in any way as you know full well it's very likely to put some people off from having their ECU's EcuTek'd regardless of how reputable a mapper you are. It's just a shame that customers only find out when it's too late.

At least OS tunes are there for everybody to see and scrutinise with nothing to hide and nothing locked. I prefer to think that if someone copies my maps it just means they haven't got a clue how to tune and won't be mapping for long as a result!! Baring in mind no two cars are ever mapped the same what's good one one car may well be the kiss of death to another!! They'll soon be found out and it serves them right!!

So much for reputations and honesty eh!! Nice one!!

Splitpin

Scoobiewrx: I am not an EcuTeK agent or employee, and if you scroll up and read my earlier posts you'll see I am in no way a particular ally of theirs.

In addition, those on here who know me will I'm sure vouch for the fact that I don't put fingers to keyboard without knowing exactly what I'm talking about, on this subject more than most, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was repeating "propaganda".

I also didn't say that all or even a majority of the open source info comes from questionable sources. Indeed I specifically said that this was a minority, so I'm not quite sure why you got on your high horse to that extent.

As far as examples go, I'm a very infrequent visitor to the OS forums, but I have in the last few months seen a post on one of them in which someone specifically mentions technical details of the way Tek's software puts the 99-00 ECUs into flash mode, with the intent that this information be used to help "the project" (and with responses thanking him for the info).

So, exceptional it no doubt is. However, it most definitely does happen.

scoobiewrx555

Splitpin my post wasn't directed at you or about anything you posted. It's too late in the evening again and i haven't had enough alcohol

I saw that a while back too. I don't condone EcuTek hacking in any way shape or form either and i have no doubt as soon as someone starts posting very specific details they would i hope be removed asap.

The action of a very small number of individuals not officially associated with either RomRadier or ECUflash does not represent OS ethics in any way but as you say it does happen....thankfully it's a rare thing!!

The only reason 99/00 ECU's haven't been reverse engineered by OS yet is because in the USA there isn't the call for it. RomRaider rarely get asked for Classic ROM definitions so they just don't bother. Newage onwards is what they are all about and more power to their elbows for doing so!!

As far as i'm concerned EcuTek are welcome to 99/00 cars. My interests are Classic V1 and V2, Newage and Next Gen hatch. ESL are already on the case with V3-V4 ECU's so i'm a happy bunny

BTW...I haven't got a high horse...in fact i hate the things and can't ride either so i wouldn't be on one!!

Andy.F

Paul, I am an engine tuner, not a software security hacking expert, the software I use is merely a tool for me.
I'm not in a position to explain the detail of how Dynamix can now access Ecutek licenced ECU's, copy the maps to his laptop and then rewrite the same or edited maps back to any ECU.......without..... someone having hacked Ecuteks security systems ?
Security systems which were originally put in place jointly to protect their investment as a professional tuning company and also to protect their tuners work from copying.

I'm sure its all totally ethical, perhaps Duncan can enlighten us how that came about without specifically targeting Ecuteks work ?

Andy.