EcuTek mapping Vs Open mapping ?
30 December 2009, 12:58 PM
#151
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Any idea when racerom will finally become available ? I have recently had my engine fully rebuilt and desperately need to remap soon. My car had maf scaling issues and I really want to run mafless but dont want to spend 2k on a Solaris at the moment. I believe OS already have a mafless option but thanks to Ecutek kindly locking my ECU that is not an option I can currently use......
30 December 2009, 01:36 PM
#152
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When it has been fully tested in house. Ecutek dealers also currently have copies for evaluation but they prefer not to use unsuspecting customers for beta testing !!!
Is your car running big power that you think it needs to run mafless ? Up to 500bhp should not be a problem regards maf scaling.
Andy
Is your car running big power that you think it needs to run mafless ? Up to 500bhp should not be a problem regards maf scaling.
Andy
30 December 2009, 02:06 PM
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The car had a power run on Delta Dash when it was mapped for the previous owner and pulled 489 bhp and 509 lb/ft , I feel these figures were a little optimistic as the car runs an md321t on V-Power.
I understand what you are saying about it being possible to properly scale the maf Andy, but it wasn't done properly last time and as I dont have the equipment or more importantly the knowledge to datalog the car myself I would always worry that it still wasn't right. At the moment I am in a real Dilema, I have run the car in pretty gently but am now worried that if I continue to drive too gently I will risk getting glazed bores or if I start to push it a little harder the poor maf scaling will cause detonation. I would really kick myself if I remap now and racerom gets released a week or two later.
I understand what you are saying about it being possible to properly scale the maf Andy, but it wasn't done properly last time and as I dont have the equipment or more importantly the knowledge to datalog the car myself I would always worry that it still wasn't right. At the moment I am in a real Dilema, I have run the car in pretty gently but am now worried that if I continue to drive too gently I will risk getting glazed bores or if I start to push it a little harder the poor maf scaling will cause detonation. I would really kick myself if I remap now and racerom gets released a week or two later.
30 December 2009, 03:29 PM
#154
30 December 2009, 04:44 PM
#155
Just to add my 2p.
Wasn't ecuTek originally in the public domain until the developers realised how much potential money could be made from it as a commercial product?
From my understanding epifan was involved early on in the development of the OS software (many years ago), but was effectively ostracised from the community when he decided to use that information to create a comercial product (ecuEdit) for his own profit. I haven't seen him post of the OS forums for years.
The current OS developers have very high moral standards (people try post an ecutek rom on the RomRaider forums occasionally and it will be removed by the moderators very quickly). In fact if you read the forum rules, posting any rom which is not 100% your own work is prohibited unless you have the permission of the tuner involved.
RomRaider is a good product with some excellent functionality built in, but I have always found the interface slow and not particularly user friendly, which is why I use both RR and ecuEdit. Ignoring the alleged functionality mentioned previously which does pose some intelectual property issues, ecuEdit is actually a superb product with a huge amount of funtionality which is constantly being developed and improved and I will continue to use it on that basis.
Simon, didn't you used to use OS software before being accepted as an ecuTek dealer?
Andy F you should know better than most that stealing someone's Rom is no shortcut to becoming a mapper. If you have no understanding of what changes have been made and why it is of little or no use and anyone attempting to flash said map onto a different vehicle is simply asking for trouble (the expensive kind).
I have invested a huge amount of time and money teaching myself how to map and seeing how changes to various maps impact performance on my own car and then making sure I understand why. I have done this because I find it enjoyable and an intellectual challenge. As has been said, the tools do not make the mapper.
Any mapper with a good reputation should not fear, as you will always have work ... you may just need to change your choice of tools to remain competative ... but then that is business.
Wasn't ecuTek originally in the public domain until the developers realised how much potential money could be made from it as a commercial product?
From my understanding epifan was involved early on in the development of the OS software (many years ago), but was effectively ostracised from the community when he decided to use that information to create a comercial product (ecuEdit) for his own profit. I haven't seen him post of the OS forums for years.
The current OS developers have very high moral standards (people try post an ecutek rom on the RomRaider forums occasionally and it will be removed by the moderators very quickly). In fact if you read the forum rules, posting any rom which is not 100% your own work is prohibited unless you have the permission of the tuner involved.
RomRaider is a good product with some excellent functionality built in, but I have always found the interface slow and not particularly user friendly, which is why I use both RR and ecuEdit. Ignoring the alleged functionality mentioned previously which does pose some intelectual property issues, ecuEdit is actually a superb product with a huge amount of funtionality which is constantly being developed and improved and I will continue to use it on that basis.
Simon, didn't you used to use OS software before being accepted as an ecuTek dealer?
Andy F you should know better than most that stealing someone's Rom is no shortcut to becoming a mapper. If you have no understanding of what changes have been made and why it is of little or no use and anyone attempting to flash said map onto a different vehicle is simply asking for trouble (the expensive kind).
I have invested a huge amount of time and money teaching myself how to map and seeing how changes to various maps impact performance on my own car and then making sure I understand why. I have done this because I find it enjoyable and an intellectual challenge. As has been said, the tools do not make the mapper.
Any mapper with a good reputation should not fear, as you will always have work ... you may just need to change your choice of tools to remain competative ... but then that is business.
Last edited by STiFreak; 30 December 2009 at 04:49 PM. Reason: Spelling
30 December 2009, 04:48 PM
#156
I agree with Simon. Having logged that car when the other dan owned it I think 489 is very generous. Should be no need to go mafless on your 06 as the maf will scale much more than the 350 grams that bob had it to max at. It can be overwritten by a non ecutek dealer.
30 December 2009, 07:53 PM
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As a someone who has had two remaps carried out by Bob Rawle - one on my previous car which was a UK Hawkeye WRX and my current car a JDM S202.
I feel that I paid for the mappers expertise and time regardless of the tools used in order to achieve the results gained, both maps were Ecutek as this provides me with the level of sophistication I required. If Bob was using an OS or any other mapping system then I would be equally happy if it gained the same results.
I feel that as the end user of the Ecutek product that the ECU should not be locked against further remapping by whatever means (but certainly lock the map data against theft) and was this implemented by Ecutek in order that any futher maps were locked into their product?
As for the intellectual property rights I agree that the original mappers work should not be pilfered by all and sundry, but I also believe that some of the IP rights also belong to me as I paid for the mapping to be carried out. So that if I wanted to extract the information at some point in the future then I should be able to do so, not to pass onto anyone else or another mapper but for my own information or use.
Having spoken to Bob after the mapping session I enquired about Deltadash and he has since e-mailed me but has also informed me about EasyECU which Ecutek also provide. If I am correct this will allow me to request 'tweaked' maps from Bob which he can then tailor to take into account further modifications to my car which I can then upload into the ECU myself and then choose which one suits the car/me best.
This means then that I do not have to take the car to Bob but an interesting couple of thoughts on my part are - surely it is better to have live mapping sessions with Bob and are Ecutek trying to give their dealers a new(?) tool in order to compete with the growing OS market?
Just in closing my main thoughts are that regardless of the tools or systems used it is in the skill of the mapper to get the best results out of the car in front of them, and as the OS scene gains ground on Ecutek then surely there should be some form of control on the OS mappers (I would imagine the Ecutek franchise operators are licensed and have to prove their competence).
As you or I do not want just somebody with a laptop turning up, flashing the ECU and then vanishing if there is a problem as this would do real harm to the OS community after all the hard work being carried out by the programmers/mappers driving it forward.
I feel that I paid for the mappers expertise and time regardless of the tools used in order to achieve the results gained, both maps were Ecutek as this provides me with the level of sophistication I required. If Bob was using an OS or any other mapping system then I would be equally happy if it gained the same results.
I feel that as the end user of the Ecutek product that the ECU should not be locked against further remapping by whatever means (but certainly lock the map data against theft) and was this implemented by Ecutek in order that any futher maps were locked into their product?
As for the intellectual property rights I agree that the original mappers work should not be pilfered by all and sundry, but I also believe that some of the IP rights also belong to me as I paid for the mapping to be carried out. So that if I wanted to extract the information at some point in the future then I should be able to do so, not to pass onto anyone else or another mapper but for my own information or use.
Having spoken to Bob after the mapping session I enquired about Deltadash and he has since e-mailed me but has also informed me about EasyECU which Ecutek also provide. If I am correct this will allow me to request 'tweaked' maps from Bob which he can then tailor to take into account further modifications to my car which I can then upload into the ECU myself and then choose which one suits the car/me best.
This means then that I do not have to take the car to Bob but an interesting couple of thoughts on my part are - surely it is better to have live mapping sessions with Bob and are Ecutek trying to give their dealers a new(?) tool in order to compete with the growing OS market?
Just in closing my main thoughts are that regardless of the tools or systems used it is in the skill of the mapper to get the best results out of the car in front of them, and as the OS scene gains ground on Ecutek then surely there should be some form of control on the OS mappers (I would imagine the Ecutek franchise operators are licensed and have to prove their competence).
As you or I do not want just somebody with a laptop turning up, flashing the ECU and then vanishing if there is a problem as this would do real harm to the OS community after all the hard work being carried out by the programmers/mappers driving it forward.
Last edited by Cannon Fodder; 30 December 2009 at 07:54 PM.
30 December 2009, 11:31 PM
#159
I think my only problem with ECUTEK Vs OS from a mapping perspective is the ECUTEK lock.
As mentioned before it is a tool..although OS obviously it can be abused.
Why does the lock have to prevent flash aswell as read ???
I understand that they may not want anyone to read out the map, but why prevent a reflash ??
But then again it would be useful to read the map, in one instance a car mapped with ECUTEK was not achieving target boost on the rollers. I offered to check the map, as happened to be at the rollers with my laptop.
My thoughts were that the WGDC was hitting it's Max WGDC limits on the rollers attempting to achieve target, whereas on the road the upper limits were sufficient.
I could not read out the post 2006 ECUTEK map, so could not advise the owner, for sure why target, on rollers, was 1.1bar, whereas on road was 1.3bar.
The owner then went away v.dissapointed with his RR result.
A subtle increase in WGDC on the day may of fixed this for him, but alas was not possible due to ECUTEK lock.
With regard to viewing other peoples maps, some, but not all have very little changed.
This would not be considered good value for money if you could see it.
I fell victim to this many years ago, and it is what prompted me to start doing it myself after paying a certain high profile RR, with close links to ECUTEK for a remap, I was astonished at how little they had changed when I managed to upload the ROM (Pre TEK Lock).
As mentioned before it is a tool..although OS obviously it can be abused.
Why does the lock have to prevent flash aswell as read ???
I understand that they may not want anyone to read out the map, but why prevent a reflash ??
But then again it would be useful to read the map, in one instance a car mapped with ECUTEK was not achieving target boost on the rollers. I offered to check the map, as happened to be at the rollers with my laptop.
My thoughts were that the WGDC was hitting it's Max WGDC limits on the rollers attempting to achieve target, whereas on the road the upper limits were sufficient.
I could not read out the post 2006 ECUTEK map, so could not advise the owner, for sure why target, on rollers, was 1.1bar, whereas on road was 1.3bar.
The owner then went away v.dissapointed with his RR result.
A subtle increase in WGDC on the day may of fixed this for him, but alas was not possible due to ECUTEK lock.
With regard to viewing other peoples maps, some, but not all have very little changed.
This would not be considered good value for money if you could see it.
I fell victim to this many years ago, and it is what prompted me to start doing it myself after paying a certain high profile RR, with close links to ECUTEK for a remap, I was astonished at how little they had changed when I managed to upload the ROM (Pre TEK Lock).
31 December 2009, 09:26 AM
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I think my only problem with ECUTEK Vs OS from a mapping perspective is the ECUTEK lock.
As mentioned before it is a tool..although OS obviously it can be abused.
Why does the lock have to prevent flash aswell as read ???
I understand that they may not want anyone to read out the map, but why prevent a reflash ??
But then again it would be useful to read the map, in one instance a car mapped with ECUTEK was not achieving target boost on the rollers. I offered to check the map, as happened to be at the rollers with my laptop.
My thoughts were that the WGDC was hitting it's Max WGDC limits on the rollers attempting to achieve target, whereas on the road the upper limits were sufficient.
I could not read out the post 2006 ECUTEK map, so could not advise the owner, for sure why target, on rollers, was 1.1bar, whereas on road was 1.3bar.
The owner then went away v.dissapointed with his RR result.
A subtle increase in WGDC on the day may of fixed this for him, but alas was not possible due to ECUTEK lock.
With regard to viewing other peoples maps, some, but not all have very little changed.
This would not be considered good value for money if you could see it.
I fell victim to this many years ago, and it is what prompted me to start doing it myself after paying a certain high profile RR, with close links to ECUTEK for a remap, I was astonished at how little they had changed when I managed to upload the ROM (Pre TEK Lock).
As mentioned before it is a tool..although OS obviously it can be abused.
Why does the lock have to prevent flash aswell as read ???
I understand that they may not want anyone to read out the map, but why prevent a reflash ??
But then again it would be useful to read the map, in one instance a car mapped with ECUTEK was not achieving target boost on the rollers. I offered to check the map, as happened to be at the rollers with my laptop.
My thoughts were that the WGDC was hitting it's Max WGDC limits on the rollers attempting to achieve target, whereas on the road the upper limits were sufficient.
I could not read out the post 2006 ECUTEK map, so could not advise the owner, for sure why target, on rollers, was 1.1bar, whereas on road was 1.3bar.
The owner then went away v.dissapointed with his RR result.
A subtle increase in WGDC on the day may of fixed this for him, but alas was not possible due to ECUTEK lock.
With regard to viewing other peoples maps, some, but not all have very little changed.
This would not be considered good value for money if you could see it.
I fell victim to this many years ago, and it is what prompted me to start doing it myself after paying a certain high profile RR, with close links to ECUTEK for a remap, I was astonished at how little they had changed when I managed to upload the ROM (Pre TEK Lock).
31 December 2009, 09:40 AM
#161
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I think my only problem with ECUTEK Vs OS from a mapping perspective is the ECUTEK lock.
As mentioned before it is a tool..although OS obviously it can be abused.
Why does the lock have to prevent flash aswell as read ???
I understand that they may not want anyone to read out the map, but why prevent a reflash ??
But then again it would be useful to read the map, in one instance a car mapped with ECUTEK was not achieving target boost on the rollers. I offered to check the map, as happened to be at the rollers with my laptop.
My thoughts were that the WGDC was hitting it's Max WGDC limits on the rollers attempting to achieve target, whereas on the road the upper limits were sufficient.
I could not read out the post 2006 ECUTEK map, so could not advise the owner, for sure why target, on rollers, was 1.1bar, whereas on road was 1.3bar.
The owner then went away v.dissapointed with his RR result.
A subtle increase in WGDC on the day may of fixed this for him, but alas was not possible due to ECUTEK lock.
With regard to viewing other peoples maps, some, but not all have very little changed.
This would not be considered good value for money if you could see it.
I fell victim to this many years ago, and it is what prompted me to start doing it myself after paying a certain high profile RR, with close links to ECUTEK for a remap, I was astonished at how little they had changed when I managed to upload the ROM (Pre TEK Lock).
As mentioned before it is a tool..although OS obviously it can be abused.
Why does the lock have to prevent flash aswell as read ???
I understand that they may not want anyone to read out the map, but why prevent a reflash ??
But then again it would be useful to read the map, in one instance a car mapped with ECUTEK was not achieving target boost on the rollers. I offered to check the map, as happened to be at the rollers with my laptop.
My thoughts were that the WGDC was hitting it's Max WGDC limits on the rollers attempting to achieve target, whereas on the road the upper limits were sufficient.
I could not read out the post 2006 ECUTEK map, so could not advise the owner, for sure why target, on rollers, was 1.1bar, whereas on road was 1.3bar.
The owner then went away v.dissapointed with his RR result.
A subtle increase in WGDC on the day may of fixed this for him, but alas was not possible due to ECUTEK lock.
With regard to viewing other peoples maps, some, but not all have very little changed.
This would not be considered good value for money if you could see it.
I fell victim to this many years ago, and it is what prompted me to start doing it myself after paying a certain high profile RR, with close links to ECUTEK for a remap, I was astonished at how little they had changed when I managed to upload the ROM (Pre TEK Lock).
31 December 2009, 09:58 AM
#162
I don't think i have come across a single already remapped ECU that didn't need further small tweakes across the board including Timing, AFR's, WGDC, Tip in enrichment, Boost thresholds, Turbo Dynamics, AVCS etc etc...
Maybe i'm just a stickler for doing a thorough job and perhaps why it can take me half a day and then some to remap (including fault fiding and fixing) but just making a couple of alterations isn't going to make a good tune and smacks of laziness!! As soon as you change one condition it affects others and so there's no substitute for doing a thorough job until a good balanced is achieved.
You cannot reproduce the same airflow/engine load characteristics on a Dyno that you get on the road so that may have had some baring on why you were only hitting 1.1 bar indoors instead of 1.3 outdoors. Hence the benefits of road tuning every time.
Maybe i'm just a stickler for doing a thorough job and perhaps why it can take me half a day and then some to remap (including fault fiding and fixing) but just making a couple of alterations isn't going to make a good tune and smacks of laziness!! As soon as you change one condition it affects others and so there's no substitute for doing a thorough job until a good balanced is achieved.
You cannot reproduce the same airflow/engine load characteristics on a Dyno that you get on the road so that may have had some baring on why you were only hitting 1.1 bar indoors instead of 1.3 outdoors. Hence the benefits of road tuning every time.
31 December 2009, 10:32 AM
#163
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EG specific injector duty for a given load site?
31 December 2009, 10:48 AM
#165
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31 December 2009, 11:06 AM
#166
I'm not getting into this one either and I didn't make the comment to start another war but merely a potential reason as to why the poster wasn't making boost target on the rollers although it could well have been simply down to a mechanical issue.
The discussion here is EcuTek V OS, if you want want to get into the Dyno v Road Tune BS argument start another thread or reopen the original thread although it's been done to death already!!
The discussion here is EcuTek V OS, if you want want to get into the Dyno v Road Tune BS argument start another thread or reopen the original thread although it's been done to death already!!
31 December 2009, 11:18 AM
#167
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I don't think i have come across a single already remapped ECU that didn't need further small tweakes across the board including Timing, AFR's, WGDC, Tip in enrichment, Boost thresholds, Turbo Dynamics, AVCS etc etc...
Maybe i'm just a stickler for doing a thorough job and perhaps why it can take me half a day and then some to remap (including fault fiding and fixing) but just making a couple of alterations isn't going to make a good tune and smacks of laziness!! As soon as you change one condition it affects others and so there's no substitute for doing a thorough job until a good balanced is achieved.
You cannot reproduce the same airflow/engine load characteristics on a Dyno that you get on the road so that may have had some baring on why you were only hitting 1.1 bar indoors instead of 1.3 outdoors. Hence the benefits of road tuning every time.
Maybe i'm just a stickler for doing a thorough job and perhaps why it can take me half a day and then some to remap (including fault fiding and fixing) but just making a couple of alterations isn't going to make a good tune and smacks of laziness!! As soon as you change one condition it affects others and so there's no substitute for doing a thorough job until a good balanced is achieved.
You cannot reproduce the same airflow/engine load characteristics on a Dyno that you get on the road so that may have had some baring on why you were only hitting 1.1 bar indoors instead of 1.3 outdoors. Hence the benefits of road tuning every time.
The point was that was scotts opinion.
Youd be happy with anyone with a laptop and lead altering your map?
Oh and does every post have to try and promote yourself rather than discuss the subject at hand?
31 December 2009, 11:18 AM
#168
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31 December 2009, 11:25 AM
#169
31 December 2009, 11:43 AM
#171
I love the way you pickout bits of a post that suit your argument and ignore the rest.
The point was that was scotts opinion.
Youd be happy with anyone with a laptop and lead altering your map?
Oh and does every post have to try and promote yourself rather than discuss the subject at hand?
The point was that was scotts opinion.
Youd be happy with anyone with a laptop and lead altering your map?
Oh and does every post have to try and promote yourself rather than discuss the subject at hand?
As for promoting...You are an authorised trader and that's what you're trying to do on scoobynet. I made a post the other day extolling the virtues of ESL hopefully benefitting all authorised traders by my comments...
my exact comments were....
'With an ESL daughterboard and remap fit the 440's and your P&J will come alive. It costs from £550+vat'.
you replied....
'Looks like I am cheap for esl live if normally 550+vat'
I replied....
Yep... That's what everyone else charges. So you are loads cheaper Simon....by £25!!
If i want to promote myself on Scoobynet i'll go through the proper channels. There are other mappers on here, ordinary members of scoobynet that use OS tools and like myself try to help others out where possible. I've lost count at the amount of times i've offered to help reset people ECU's when they're having probs. I never asked for anything in return and it gives me great pleasure to help out. Is there something wrong witih that??
31 December 2009, 11:45 AM
#172
31 December 2009, 11:55 AM
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31 December 2009, 11:56 AM
#174
If you think i'm promoting myself or advertising pleeeeeese go and report me to SN and have my posts removed.
You see this is the prob with some EcuTek dealers now....They're so fecking desperate to hold on to their little empires and not lose out to OS in any way shape or form that you'll do anything to **** on OS tuners whether amateur or Pro.
Stop being such a girl and get on with what you do best....Making people smile with your tuning magic.
You see this is the prob with some EcuTek dealers now....They're so fecking desperate to hold on to their little empires and not lose out to OS in any way shape or form that you'll do anything to **** on OS tuners whether amateur or Pro.
Stop being such a girl and get on with what you do best....Making people smile with your tuning magic.
31 December 2009, 11:58 AM
#175
It had no other issues and RR was only 3 days on from a TEK map (not one of yours, I would like to add). The owner accepted that the RR figure was low due to the poor boost achieved and it continues to boost fine on the road.
As others have mentioned above, don't want to turn this into a road vs dyno thread. Just adding my observations where the Tek map and locking has caused issues.
I don't really want to get drawn into this anymore, but it has been a good read.
IMHO TEK and OS applications are just tools and tools regardless of who uses them can be used to great effect or abused.
Last edited by Scott.T; 31 December 2009 at 11:59 AM.
31 December 2009, 12:03 PM
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31 December 2009, 12:05 PM
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31 December 2009, 01:38 PM
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31 December 2009, 01:42 PM
#180
If you think i'm promoting myself or advertising pleeeeeese go and report me to SN and have my posts removed.
You see this is the prob with some EcuTek dealers now....They're so fecking desperate to hold on to their little empires and not lose out to OS in any way shape or form that you'll do anything to **** on OS tuners whether amateur or Pro.
Stop being such a girl and get on with what you do best....Making people smile with your tuning magic.
You see this is the prob with some EcuTek dealers now....They're so fecking desperate to hold on to their little empires and not lose out to OS in any way shape or form that you'll do anything to **** on OS tuners whether amateur or Pro.
Stop being such a girl and get on with what you do best....Making people smile with your tuning magic.
The mappers make their money from... their mapping services
Right? So therefore if they so required, I'm pretty damn sure they could turn to OS mapping as well, and most likely be very good at it. So I don't think anyone is desperate to hold on to any empires here, after all, they don't just map ECUtek style, but they do Simtek, Solaris, Motec etc etc - I think they'll be just fine, don't you 