scoobyclinics turbo's just got billet I mean better!
05 November 2010, 03:48 PM
#1231
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How is having access to a Group N ecu and pulling the Rom 'stealing'? Or should I say, how is it any different to pulling a Rom from a non group n ecu?
Last edited by bluenose172; 05 November 2010 at 04:05 PM.
05 November 2010, 03:56 PM
#1232
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becasue the map is not your interlectual (sp) property, aka your stealing someone elses work.
although the argument of who owns the map, mapper or cars owner, is still ongoing lol
or have i missed the point of your question?
05 November 2010, 04:06 PM
#1234
There are other speed density options for the OE ecu than the group N rom.
Interesting sideshoot on this thread though. Fudging/Adapting figures to get around the 300g/sec limit is interesting and certainly does test the mental logic sometimes but when done there is no reason why you cant see the full benefit of using the OE maf based system at that power level.
As also said by Pat the 'artifacts' of driving at the top end of sensors is a little interesting too and moving to a SD ecu is the way forward but that is difficult to explain to someone unless they experience these artifacts themselves to see whether they can live with them. I moved from the OE ecu to Syvecs at around 540bhp and it is refreshing to work with an ecu that works with you rather than fights you at that level.
Gaffer/Kev - interesting although very sad for that customer with the SC40 billet
I pipework issues were ruled out before reaching that conclusion ?
Interesting sideshoot on this thread though. Fudging/Adapting figures to get around the 300g/sec limit is interesting and certainly does test the mental logic sometimes but when done there is no reason why you cant see the full benefit of using the OE maf based system at that power level.
As also said by Pat the 'artifacts' of driving at the top end of sensors is a little interesting too and moving to a SD ecu is the way forward but that is difficult to explain to someone unless they experience these artifacts themselves to see whether they can live with them. I moved from the OE ecu to Syvecs at around 540bhp and it is refreshing to work with an ecu that works with you rather than fights you at that level.
Gaffer/Kev - interesting although very sad for that customer with the SC40 billet
I pipework issues were ruled out before reaching that conclusion ?
05 November 2010, 04:15 PM
#1235
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I hope you can understand my position, I have the best tuner for the EJ207 in the US saying one thing, and one of the best in the UK saying another thing.
A tuner being a vendor for his services in no way discredits there tuning ability.
Deadpool,
The problem with forums is that it's difficult to tell who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't....
Martyn,
The sensors on that year seem a little sporadic. I have seen some stop reading at 1.52 bar... yet others seem to read a bit higher. Replacing the sensor can be easy or downright awkward; if the ECU allows you to adjust the linearisation to suit then it's a no brainer, if it won't then you're back into pseudo-numbers and headaches.... As for why someone might do it, I don't think it's for me to speculate what the rationale was.
Cheers,
Pat.
The problem with forums is that it's difficult to tell who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't....
Martyn,
The sensors on that year seem a little sporadic. I have seen some stop reading at 1.52 bar... yet others seem to read a bit higher. Replacing the sensor can be easy or downright awkward; if the ECU allows you to adjust the linearisation to suit then it's a no brainer, if it won't then you're back into pseudo-numbers and headaches.... As for why someone might do it, I don't think it's for me to speculate what the rationale was.
Cheers,
Pat.
Just wanted to clarify a bit also. With the different ECU, is that mainly/primarily if you plan to run SD? If one were to stay on the MAF would that be a different scenario? I hope you realize I'm asking questions to learn, not stir up ****. Do you do email tunes at all based on road logs? Would be a pita for me to ship a car to the UK haha.
Last edited by Deadpool; 05 November 2010 at 04:23 PM.
05 November 2010, 04:39 PM
#1236
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And likewise do you know who Clark Turner is? He is one of the most respected EJ207 tuners here in the US. I'm not trying to do anything other than learn more, frankly I don't care who is right provided we get to the bottom of it.
I hope you can understand my position, I have the best tuner for the EJ207 in the US saying one thing, and one of the best in the UK saying another thing.
Well that was rather hypocritical of you....... you do realize that Pat himself is a vendor selling ECU's....... guess you shouldn't go anywhere near him either
A tuner being a vendor for his services in no way discredits there tuning ability.
I completely agree, BUT when someone has built up there reputation..... much like yourself..... that's a different story. The following you have here, is the same Clark has over in the US. So you can see my predicament..... and on the flip side.... I don't know as much about you "The problem with forums is that it's difficult to tell who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't....". It goes both ways here.
Just wanted to clarify a bit also. With the different ECU, is that mainly/primarily if you plan to run SD? If one were to stay on the MAF would that be a different scenario? I hope you realize I'm asking questions to learn, not stir up ****. Do you do email tunes at all based on road logs? Would be a pita for me to ship a car to the UK haha.
I hope you can understand my position, I have the best tuner for the EJ207 in the US saying one thing, and one of the best in the UK saying another thing.
Well that was rather hypocritical of you....... you do realize that Pat himself is a vendor selling ECU's....... guess you shouldn't go anywhere near him either
A tuner being a vendor for his services in no way discredits there tuning ability.
I completely agree, BUT when someone has built up there reputation..... much like yourself..... that's a different story. The following you have here, is the same Clark has over in the US. So you can see my predicament..... and on the flip side.... I don't know as much about you "The problem with forums is that it's difficult to tell who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't....". It goes both ways here.
Just wanted to clarify a bit also. With the different ECU, is that mainly/primarily if you plan to run SD? If one were to stay on the MAF would that be a different scenario? I hope you realize I'm asking questions to learn, not stir up ****. Do you do email tunes at all based on road logs? Would be a pita for me to ship a car to the UK haha.
perhaps i was being a bit flippant in how i put it, ok alot lol (seem to be having a day of that on here today lol)
but, thing you've now seen about what pat puts is he justifys what he says techincly rather than just saying 'thats wrong'. I know pat personaly and half the time i talk to him i have to get him to explain whats hes saying cos it shoots way over my meeger knowledge lol
but, reason i wouldn't go near the guy in america is somewhere i saw mentioned he does internet maps, aka generic maps. i think its pretty common knowledge that subaru's arn't realy cars you want to throw a generic map at. there was a company local to me doing it, 7 dead engines later they have gone out of business. that said they were using maps from the US so makes you wonder what they were mapped for (could be wrong fuel etc). If i've got that side of it wrong i appologise, but your request for a email map kinda hints thats the way it is.
however it doesn't detract from the pros and cons of it or facts about what components can and can't do, im not sure how you can argue that point, unless he's under the impression the components in question are more capable than said here.
i have replied on there asking why what pats said is 'a confused person' to try to find out why they have said that
although simon has come on and comment since, with a less subtle answer lol
Last edited by Tidgy; 05 November 2010 at 04:40 PM.
05 November 2010, 04:43 PM
#1237
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An internet tune isn't necessarily a generic map. It involves the end user logging(with a wideband), sending the logs to the tuner then the tuner sending a map to upload, rinse repeat until finished.
05 November 2010, 04:46 PM
#1239
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i supose you could, but how many times would you do that to make it right? custom maps take dozens and dozens of power runs, not only to get best results but to make sure it safe.
if a map is applied with just logging, the run could do the damage where as in person the mapper can tell the driver to back off.
while possible i can't see it being viable
05 November 2010, 04:47 PM
#1240
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05 November 2010, 04:48 PM
#1241
Clarke is very knowledgeable and is one of the guys as part of the open source community that has dissassembled the OE code including many areas not known by ecutek aswell as helping develop an OS speed density rom for most model years iirc. He knows what he is talking about but so does Pat.
There are ways around most things, and I believe that is what Pat was saying, but it gets to a point where it isnt worth fighting the ecu and getting to run way beyond the OE design - at that point it is right to move to a proper ecu designed to do the job in hand and one that will help make the car run better.
btw some limits imposed in one piece of software are purely that - within that software and not ecu limits themselves. It would be interesting to know what ecutek dealers believe the maf g/sec limit to be in an 06/07 32bit ecu?
There are ways around most things, and I believe that is what Pat was saying, but it gets to a point where it isnt worth fighting the ecu and getting to run way beyond the OE design - at that point it is right to move to a proper ecu designed to do the job in hand and one that will help make the car run better.
btw some limits imposed in one piece of software are purely that - within that software and not ecu limits themselves. It would be interesting to know what ecutek dealers believe the maf g/sec limit to be in an 06/07 32bit ecu?
05 November 2010, 04:51 PM
#1242
i supose you could, but how many times would you do that to make it right? custom maps take dozens and dozens of power runs, not only to get best results but to make sure it safe.
if a map is applied with just logging, the run could do the damage where as in person the mapper can tell the driver to back off.
while possible i can't see it being viable
if a map is applied with just logging, the run could do the damage where as in person the mapper can tell the driver to back off.
while possible i can't see it being viable
Would you travel 1000+ miles to do that - it is a common way of doing it there where huge milages are concerned and involves the end user in the overall process and helps them learn what is going on too rather than just leaving it to the magic fingers of the tuner.
Personally I think it is a great service they offer considering they dont sit in the car at all themselves and not disimilar to how a lot of tuners here work when working on Syvecs ecu's (after the initial mapping). Customer's having downloaded datalogs from the ecu then sending them to the mapper for opinions, revised cals etc. Maybe even makes you better at interpretting data perhaps ?
05 November 2010, 05:07 PM
#1243
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perhaps i was being a bit flippant in how i put it, ok alot lol (seem to be having a day of that on here today lol)
but, thing you've now seen about what pat puts is he justifys what he says techincly rather than just saying 'thats wrong'. I know pat personaly and half the time i talk to him i have to get him to explain whats hes saying cos it shoots way over my meeger knowledge lol
but, reason i wouldn't go near the guy in america is somewhere i saw mentioned he does internet maps, aka generic maps. i think its pretty common knowledge that subaru's arn't realy cars you want to throw a generic map at. there was a company local to me doing it, 7 dead engines later they have gone out of business. that said they were using maps from the US so makes you wonder what they were mapped for (could be wrong fuel etc). If i've got that side of it wrong i appologise, but your request for a email map kinda hints thats the way it is.
however it doesn't detract from the pros and cons of it or facts about what components can and can't do, im not sure how you can argue that point, unless he's under the impression the components in question are more capable than said here.
i have replied on there asking why what pats said is 'a confused person' to try to find out why they have said that although simon has come on and comment since, with a less subtle answer lol
but, thing you've now seen about what pat puts is he justifys what he says techincly rather than just saying 'thats wrong'. I know pat personaly and half the time i talk to him i have to get him to explain whats hes saying cos it shoots way over my meeger knowledge lol
but, reason i wouldn't go near the guy in america is somewhere i saw mentioned he does internet maps, aka generic maps. i think its pretty common knowledge that subaru's arn't realy cars you want to throw a generic map at. there was a company local to me doing it, 7 dead engines later they have gone out of business. that said they were using maps from the US so makes you wonder what they were mapped for (could be wrong fuel etc). If i've got that side of it wrong i appologise, but your request for a email map kinda hints thats the way it is.
however it doesn't detract from the pros and cons of it or facts about what components can and can't do, im not sure how you can argue that point, unless he's under the impression the components in question are more capable than said here.
i have replied on there asking why what pats said is 'a confused person' to try to find out why they have said that
although simon has come on and comment since, with a less subtle answer lol
. And I def liked how pat responded with a lot more information, hopefully clark will do the same. That's why I shared the link, and posted Pat's full post, I want information. Like bluenose said, with Clark and a few other tuners, you have to run logs and send them to him to adjust. Sure it's not as good as having the tuner in there with you, but with such a long distance between us..... it's the only option, and it's pretty solid actually. He has you progress slowly rather than jump right into WOT logs.
05 November 2010, 05:10 PM
#1244
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Clarke is very knowledgeable and is one of the guys as part of the open source community that has dissassembled the OE code including many areas not known by ecutek aswell as helping develop an OS speed density rom for most model years iirc. He knows what he is talking about but so does Pat.
There are ways around most things, and I believe that is what Pat was saying, but it gets to a point where it isnt worth fighting the ecu and getting to run way beyond the OE design - at that point it is right to move to a proper ecu designed to do the job in hand and one that will help make the car run better.
btw some limits imposed in one piece of software are purely that - within that software and not ecu limits themselves. It would be interesting to know what ecutek dealers believe the maf g/sec limit to be in an 06/07 32bit ecu?
There are ways around most things, and I believe that is what Pat was saying, but it gets to a point where it isnt worth fighting the ecu and getting to run way beyond the OE design - at that point it is right to move to a proper ecu designed to do the job in hand and one that will help make the car run better.
btw some limits imposed in one piece of software are purely that - within that software and not ecu limits themselves. It would be interesting to know what ecutek dealers believe the maf g/sec limit to be in an 06/07 32bit ecu?
05 November 2010, 05:35 PM
#1245
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No worries eh, I have those days myself now and then. And I def liked how pat responded with a lot more information, hopefully clark will do the same. That's why I shared the link, and posted Pat's full post, I want information.
Like bluenose said, with Clark and a few other tuners, you have to run logs and send them to him to adjust. Sure it's not as good as having the tuner in there with you, but with such a long distance between us..... it's the only option, and it's pretty solid actually. He has you progress slowly rather than jump right into WOT logs.
. And I def liked how pat responded with a lot more information, hopefully clark will do the same. That's why I shared the link, and posted Pat's full post, I want information. Like bluenose said, with Clark and a few other tuners, you have to run logs and send them to him to adjust. Sure it's not as good as having the tuner in there with you, but with such a long distance between us..... it's the only option, and it's pretty solid actually. He has you progress slowly rather than jump right into WOT logs.
yeah distance is an ****, 3 hours in tha car and you can get to 300 mappers in the uk, not all good though lol
do any of the mappers travel?
05 November 2010, 06:19 PM
#1246
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. Clark is on the west coast......which is a 30hr drive.... not happening haha. I have considered sending my car out to him but that would cost me $1500+ in shipping charges alone. There are some good tuners in Georgia though, which is maybe a 10-12hr drive. I went to a tuner in south fl that a friend recommended, has made some pretty impressive numbers with GTR's etc....... but I get there for an opensource tune and he doesn't know that you can tune the AVCS as well.... just gave me a blank stare when I asked. He said SD is a pain because you have to retune for the weather constantly..... bunch of these things made me question him.
The really good tuners travel, but usually only when they have a group buy/tune setup to make it worth the trip.
05 November 2010, 07:54 PM
#1248
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05 November 2010, 08:08 PM
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06 November 2010, 03:50 AM
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So as not to further pollute the thread, I have replied on NASIOC. In quick answer to Deadpool's question regarding the switch to SD when swapping ECUs, no there's a whole lot more going on than just SD
Cheers,
Pat.
Cheers,
Pat.
06 November 2010, 11:40 AM
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Hi,
although you have all moved on.
...............
I would like to answer Duncans question, post # 1234, pipe work on the blown engine is fine, and thats the whole point I was attempting to make, the previous mapper has turned off the safety cuts so split pipes or not the car would make as much boost as it likes with nothing to protect it, end result, melted piston.
back on topic.
cheers
Kev
although you have all moved on.
...............I would like to answer Duncans question, post # 1234, pipe work on the blown engine is fine, and thats the whole point I was attempting to make, the previous mapper has turned off the safety cuts so split pipes or not the car would make as much boost as it likes with nothing to protect it, end result, melted piston.
back on topic.
cheers
Kev
07 November 2010, 06:50 AM
#1253
Hi,
although you have all moved on................
I would like to answer Duncans question, post # 1234, pipe work on the blown engine is fine, and thats the whole point I was attempting to make, the previous mapper has turned off the safety cuts so split pipes or not the car would make as much boost as it likes with nothing to protect it, end result, melted piston.
back on topic.
cheers
Kev
although you have all moved on.
...............I would like to answer Duncans question, post # 1234, pipe work on the blown engine is fine, and thats the whole point I was attempting to make, the previous mapper has turned off the safety cuts so split pipes or not the car would make as much boost as it likes with nothing to protect it, end result, melted piston.
back on topic.
cheers
Kev
08 November 2010, 03:28 PM
#1254
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Hi as promised before me thread got nicked, Andy Mackena's wet lap at the Birkett endurance race.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-JLZxFL864
You can tell the tyres went off as his driving style changes half way through.
cheers
Kev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-JLZxFL864
You can tell the tyres went off as his driving style changes half way through.
cheers
Kev
08 November 2010, 06:58 PM
#1255
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Both videos to date are compulsive viewing!
I lost count of the number of cars overtaken.
Reminiscent of those car race/chase films when all the others go out of their way to make the "star" look good.
Great Stuff Indeed.
I lost count of the number of cars overtaken.
Reminiscent of those car race/chase films when all the others go out of their way to make the "star" look good.
Great Stuff Indeed.
09 November 2010, 10:34 AM
#1256
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thanks for that.
A great result for cars, drivers and of course the Bilett turbo's now tested for endurance.
cheers
Kev
12 November 2010, 07:45 AM
#1258
I was going to possibly go for the MD series turbo once again but these seem to have rattled my cage abit. Which turbo would be best suited for 440-480 on a 2.0l with AVCS heads & Vpower only? Car will be used as a daily driver so would like the lowest spooling one.
Last edited by KAS35RSTI; 12 November 2010 at 07:46 AM.
12 November 2010, 10:25 AM
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Hi,
if you set your power sights a little lower the SC36 Billet would be a stunning spooler for fast road use, our Nippon challenge winner runs one of those.
However if its over 400 BHP required then its the SC46 Billet, have you got all the supporting mods to go with it though.
Let me know and we can advise, preferably down E mail at info@scoobyclinic.com
Cheers
Kev
12 November 2010, 05:28 PM
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Hi,
below is a graph of an SC46 Billet on a forged 2.5 running just 1.4 bar of boost, built and mapped by engine tuner its a stunning result considering the low boost. red trace before and blue trace after.
Well done Martyn.
Cheers
Kev
below is a graph of an SC46 Billet on a forged 2.5 running just 1.4 bar of boost, built and mapped by engine tuner its a stunning result considering the low boost. red trace before and blue trace after.
Well done Martyn.
Cheers
Kev