GC8

Wink missed.

Tiggs

And those who can do both earn the proper money - i have just got back of an industry do overseas organised by one of the fund management companies we sell stuff for - they sent all the top sellers of their stuff on holiday (of which i was one).....some of the most intelligent people i have ever met, top of the tree in financial knowledge - and all good salesmen as well...hence some of the guys were making £2m a year (that's m for million!)

People in this thread seem to think sales stops at the local car yard!

And the reason the sales guys get the money is because if there were no salesmen there would be NO need for designers and engineers as no one would buy the stuff. In certain markets you could have the best product out there but if its not sold right its going nowhere.

Tiggs

But the other issue with sales is the risk - if an engineer has a bad month or his design needs re-working on he still picks up his salary....many sales guys will earn zero in the same instance.

There are lots of companies out there who offer dual packages to their sales guys - a salary of £30k and a car or a self employed contract with OTE of £100k + (for the SAME job) such is the risk of going without backup in search of higher reward. Good business sense for the company because the guy that brings in £200k for himself will have made as much for them.

No salesman on commission only looses money for his boss - how many engineers would like to work on the basis that if their design doesn't work first time they get no pay!

R 14NS R

i ran pubs and restaurants for 10 years, worked for whitbread, greenking and mitchells and butlers, (the big three in the industry at the time) and moved on when i wantd to and is normally the case the grass wasn t greener, same s**t, different day. gave this up to sell cars, been doing it for nearly 2 years, started with peugeot for 7 months (OTE was 38k and acheivable), then got asked to work for Mercedes and Smart with an OTE of 55k, once again acheivable ( i was not far off in my first full year with the brand).
also get a brand new M-B every 3 months (currently got an 08 plate C280 sport).

i love the job, yes its busy, yes you occasionally work til 7 and start at 8.30 but as with most jobs, the more you put in the more you get back. i work 6 days 1 week, 5 days 2 weeks, and get 1 full weekend off per month and all the usual extras, pension, medical for my family and i can also mess around with days off and start and finish times.

i cannot recommend the job enough for anyone that wantsto try something different and has a real PASSION for cars. the only down side is that i can not warrent having a scoob in the garage and new M-B on the drive.

Ghetto Dude3

yellow pages is on the decline big time IMO

most people nowdays simply google instead

Deep Singh

I know a few bods who sell corporate research, £100k is easy for them, the heads of depts make £250k-£500k.What you have to remember is that for that £100k they bring the company £2-£5million in revenue.

These guys/girls have to know their product inside out, Saying that sometimes they are lucky, the product sells itself and the commission just flows in

escott

iTrader: (1)

Tiggs, you speak a lot of sense. I am in software sales to fund managers and it is a very difficult and time consuming job. I cma eup through the ranks from testing, support, delivery and demonstrations so I have a good perspective on the relevant skills required.

People are right to say that creatives are vital, but sales I find is even more challenging. It may be that people would buy it without sales people, but for how much? Try negotiating terms, costs and legals with a financial services firm and see how you get on. This is the difficult bit, and if you dont keep price up, company loses money and noone gets paid.

So in summary, I agree it's not rocket science, although you have to be on the ball, but it is incredibly stressful and very hard work. Also, a lot of what we do is based on our reputation - The City is a small place, so do you really think a cowboy will last long?

MooseRacer

Our salesmen can earn huge amounts but as Tiggs says like it/them or not it ain't easy trying to get, for example, a retail group to give your company £3million for it's services.

JTaylor

Spot on!

Dr.No

I sell software to large national telcos, like BT. It's very expensive stuff and extremely technical, and sales cycles (from initial discovery to deal close) can be over 2 years. I've just closed a deal, last week, that I started working on in 2006 and it's involved a HELL of a lot of hard work, long hours, countless 12 hour flights, no sleep, etc. etc.

Believe me, the lot of a software 'solutions' sales person is not an easy one. It may well be quite lucrative, with good basics, very nice OTEs and uncapped earning potential - but BOY do you have to work.... normally to SELL it.

The stuff that I sell simply would not and could not "sell itself". The company would have gone bust years ago, or simply wouldn't have existed past the first bit of venture capital and lines of code, without some very good sales people.

I started my life in sales as a "Sales Engineer" - now THAT'S hard work. You need sales skills AND you need engineering/technical skills. Sort of being able to sell, and talk about what products/features/benefits/etc., but also understand everything there is to know about the design and build of it too. It's probably one of the most difficult 'sales' jobs to recruit for, as normally techies can't sell... and sales people often aren't technical.

Anyway... that's my take on it. Having started life as a Programmer, Analyst, IT Manager, etc. and having now been in software solution sales for about 8 years - I know where I'd rather be - but the way I work is very differnt and the unsocial hours that I sometimes work (you think that taking people for dinner is great fun, but try it week in week out!)can be a strain.... Same goes for international travel. I'm going on a short two day business trip next week... and will see an airport, a plane (for 12 hours!) , a hotel a number of offices and restaurants and then back on a plane for another 12 hour flight home. I'll be back in the UK on Weds completely shattered, and certainly not 'glad' that I've been jet-setting half way round the world.

DN

Petem95

Some of our salesman (IT) have made well over 100k commision alone on big deals - not sure what basic they get, but judging by the fact they're all running around in RS6's, Range Rovers etc then probably still a fair bit.

Keep in mind a 'safe' job could be a better bet at the moment. We've just laid off salesman recently due to the significant economic downturn having hit companies in general, so we're getting less new clients onboard, and some existing clients have got into difficulties etc.

If you're newish with a firm you're probably more likely to get the chop if things get tight for the firm.

escott

iTrader: (1)

Some good points above from people who understand sales.

Going back to the original point, it can be lucrative getting into big ticket software sales, although now might not be a great time. It is difficult to get into as you will need far more than 'gift of the gab' as someone stated above - if only it was that easy. If you do not have the experience then you will need to find a way in, if you have good technical or business knowledge then potentially as a sales engineer/pre-sales, which involves demonstrating the product, responding to busines and technical requirements from prospects and supporting the sales staff generally. Another option could be via lead generation/cold calling, there are firms out there which do this as an outsource service for software companies, delivering qualified leads to them. Proving yourself at either of these for a couple of years will help you in your goal.

I'll end with a slight rant - for those who believe that sales is just about smooth talking and lying, that it is an easy job where chancers can exploit naive customers then you are wrong, you are probably the kind of person who believes in a lot of other lazy stereotypes as well - all doctors play golf every day, all immigrants are scroungers, all Subaru drivers are chavs etc.

Rant over

AllanB

Most of the people that work for me earn well over 50K. Basic is not that important a good sale person will be confident in thier abilities to determine customers needs and construct a successful pitch based on demonstrating a celar understanding of the client needs and a demonstrable ability to meet or exceed this



AllanB

jods

Drug Dealer or Prostitute ?






Benefit of being a prostitute is that you can wash your crack and sell it again.

PeteBrant

The flip side of that is that many Engineers will work the hours required to get a design out on time and on spec. In most case this means long hours. Engineers don't get bonuses, or paid over time or any other perk for hitting targets - Just your slightly over rinflation pay rise if your lucky.

The salesman has a incentive for meeting targets, he knows if he sells X amount in a year, then he will have a nice fat bonus or commision at the end of it.

So, to put it back to you, how many salesmen would like to work on the basis that no matter how many they sell, they will get paid the same amount, with no bonus?

Neither works harder than the other, but one sure does get a bigger reward if he does a good job.

lordharding

iTrader: (1)

To me sales is the best job in the world if you like your product and believe in it

I have been in the home furnishing Industry for 25 years and have made a great living although i got a 17year redundancy package after 17 years when i was a sales maager

I work in a furniture shop on poor basic but excellent commission ( one of our sales guys get 60k per annum for selling furniture) A nice easy job with no hassel unlike the poor managers

It will do me untill retire ,Car saleman seeem to have a hard time and the local papers are laways want ing staff prehaps too long hours with only one day off and 830-7pm puts people off

MJW

I work in both engineering and sales. The sales part of the job I could do in my lunch hour, but the engineering takes up the rest of the day.

salsa-king

and lets face it... proper qualifications.

Flatcapdriver

Why shouldn't the sales force take the lion's share of the salaries? Its not simply a matter of being a salesman, having to negotiate deals with customers determined to pay rock bottom prices for Rolls Royce products.

As others have said, there's a hell of a lot of preparatory work that needs to be done prior to any deal being clinched, liasing with with other internal departments (credit control, design, engineering, distribution, purchasing, marketing, technical support) just to structure an offering suitable for the end user.

Then you've got to ensure that right people from your company interface with their counterparts whilst making sure the techies don't blow the deal by saying the wrong thing which in itself is an artform.

Then once the negotiation has been completed, who's the first person your colleagues will turn to when they encounter problems? Yep, the salesman!

This week, my team have had to bail out credit control because they've failed to manage the customer's expectations and their debt ledger is out of control so we've had to sort that out with the customer. Distribution has caused problems because they can't get their head around decent customer service, customer complains and sales has had to sort that situation out.

Next week Marketing need our help to complete some PR with one of our customers for a case study which needs approval from the end user - ooh, let's get sales to sort that sticky situation out.


Then we have to get purchasing and engineering round a table to sort out why they haven't been talking to each other when it comes to buying the right parts with the correct instructions so the customer gets his product.

That's a typical week for a sales force and basically ensures the customer gets the product that he's asked for but it does mean an awful lot of head banging/sweet talking internally to make sure that process flows.

Luan Pra bang

Funny how sales people are allways great at talking up their jobs. Lets be honest for those that have a natural ability to sell its easy and any saleman that cannot hit his targets and still have friday afternoon off on mythical appointments is in the wrong job. The unsocial hours part is a bit of a joke as well. What you sometimes have to take people to dinner oh the hardship how do you cope. If this thread goes on long enough the sales people will be convincing us that they are the solution to all the world problems in a minute.
The hardest job in sales is selling double glazing door to door do that and you can sell anything. They get paid alot becasue they have quantifiable targets to hit and its easy to measure how much they make for the company and it is that simple. As an industry on the whole the hours are easy mostly 9-5 no more than six days a week and the job is not that hard for those with the right personality for it.

PeteBrant

I won't bother to list the trials and tribulations of an Engineer, other than the regular nightmare of having sales people selling things that you haven't designed yet, without asking whether it is feasible.

Nonetheless absolutely nothing you have written justifies to me why salespeople deserve the "lions share" of the salaries.

All I am asking for is parity - not for the Engineers to get a larger amount than sales people - You need to remember, without Engineers - you would be out of a job, and of course, vice versa.

Flatcapdriver

Of course it won't justify the salaries because you've closed your mind and don't want to give credibility to anything that exposes your prejudices. Standard Scoobynet response from yourself I'm afraid but at least I get to enjoy my salary knowing how much it pisses you lot off.

PeteBrant

What prejudices?

Which bit of your response do you think make sales people a special deserving case?

The fact that you have to deal with various problems?
The fact that due to perceived failing of various departments you have added work load?
The fact that you are often the victim of buck passing?

Do you think this is exclusive to the world of sales? I would say that if you ask any department, financial, purchasing, R&D, HR etc they would all have exactly the same complaints as you do.

You seem to think you have the sole preserve of having to deal with ****. Well, guess what, you don't.

It doesn't **** me off in the slightest what you do or don't earn, in as much as I don't lose sleep over it. What you take home every month has no impact on me, or anyone else here.

If I was money motivated I wouldn't be an Engineer. However, for all you know I could earn 10 times the amount you do; there are always exceptions to the rule - I could equally earn 10 times less.

That doesn't mean that you can't have an opnion on the overall picture, though.

MooseRacer

I'd imagine your salary is nothing special if you're a salesman - keep on with the commission and bonuses though

Age old debate - with no product to sell there would be no salesmen, with no post-sales support there would be no salesmen or engineers....yet with neither salesmen or engineers there would be no support staff.

You've just got to accept how each is rewarded.





(fecking salesmen )

mad555

iTrader: (1)

Become a plumber and watch the money roll in.

PaulC72

I always thought it was why the word TEAM was made, as everyone is relient on each other for the cogs to turn.

It will be interesting to see how many 'sales' people are left in jobs when things start getting tighter in the country / world, it'll certainly weed out the crap ones