Area 52 Autosport

He "gave" us £20k as we did (actually in excess of) £20K's worth of work to his car!

Myself and Jase spent several hours in and out, explaining EVERYTHING about the car, which was harder than normal as Mark's mechanical understanding was relatively minimal, we spent ages running through everything.

Sure, that's completely true, the mistake needs to have been made first in that scenario though.
Remember, this engine has not failed due to any error or ommission from our side, in any way at all. Whilst highly unfortunate, it is indeed true.


Absolutely, and there was "normal" oil usage in the 1000 miles that we ran the car, we have photographs of the engine out of the car, andevery area which might leak, hasn't.


Mike.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

You used a litre over a 130 mile trip and didn't tell them? And continued to drive it?

If there was an excessive oil usage problem before the sensor install why didn't you contact them? Because now there is no evidence to support this due to other events superceeding it.

Tidgy

fiver says this thread runs and runs then gets locked.

tbh i can see both parties arguments.

personaly i think that perhaps they should sit don and have a chat, internet hearsay is a cause for false statments and incorrect guesses and can give people ideas, that are complete tosh.

catons scooby

because I washy told how much it was using. It wasn't stated to me it'll use x amount in x amount.

catons scooby

mike. I wasn't shown the engine my brother and rob were outside. You did not spend hours talking about the built. I asked ages questions the clutch seemed week as its rated low and what's the weakest part the the engine.

catons scooby

The night I got the car back the bolt for the alternator had sheared off. I had and still havant any reverse lights. Right at the begining of the build in your quote u forgot to mention a £1500 ecu and the fact I needed a complete new exhaust system and a £500 petrol bill.
The breather was bocked and did snap apart u just cant rip these things apart.

Area 52 Autosport

You were shown every aspect of the car. You were also kept abreast of the build as it happened with regular pictures Etc of the build process.

You also spoke to us on the phone and via many e.mails, when buying the Defi's. Not once did you mention oil consumption, and you were certainly never told it would make a litre "vanish" without trace over 130 miles!

The history based on our analysis strongly suggest that the (now) early reported high oil consumption (of which there is NO supporting evidence or prior indication of), didn't actually happen at all.

There had been no such issue while it did 1000 miles with us, there is CLEAR and irrefutable evidence (photographic) that the car had not been burning oil, and had not leaked oil out of any seal or gasket since it was built and handed back to you. (all seals and gaskets photographed during disassembly).

Unfortunatley, the only evidential indicator of the failure cause, is the temp sensor fitting and clear evidence of it being ran with no/too little oil, look back at the first picture you posted in here today Mark, how much pressure do you imagine was needed to get the oil over all the ridges on the engine to fill them in the manner they are?

While completely regrettable I'm sure, It's no more complex or sinister than that I'm afraid.

As you're well aware, we openly welcome an independant 3rd party engineers inspection if you are questioning the validity or accuracy of our report, While I'm sure it will support our findings based on the evidence and known history, it may settle your mind that there was no "issue" which has been masked or manipulated by us in any way.


This was entirely but again unfortunately, your error, we are sympathetic to that and have suggested several recovery options, including us doing our best to get the car running in some form without additional cost to you (at the point you said you'd have to sell the car). The only reason we've replied in here is because with only small and innacurate parts of the jigsaw puzzle being presented, people were (understandably) jumping to the wrong conclusions.




Mike.

jd5217

so can we see this failure analysis report?

Area 52 Autosport

VRN: V*** DAP


The initial process for assessing the condition of this engine was to undertake a visual/audible inspection of the fault in situ.

Initial views were that it was a big end related problem.

During a static engine running test, a big end issue would show more prominently when coming off load, and have a distinctive note, both of these indicators were present on this engine.

A compression test was deemed unnecessary, as a full inspection and assessment of all tolerances would be undertaken due to the customer reported (after failure point) extreme oil usage?


A visual inspection around the engine bay appeared to show nothing untoward until the area of the aftermarket (customer installed) Oil Temperature sensor in the Oil gallery above cylinder No. 3 was checked.


There was clear evidence of a notable quantity of “pooled” oil in and around the block casting ribs on the top of the engine casing, immediately around the oil temperature sensor plug location.


Closer viewing around this area reveals that a yellow tape of some nature appears to have been used in lieu of a proprietary (PTFE) thread seal tape, on two separate threads, (the thread of the adapter to the block and the sensor thread itself).


Engine removal from the engine bay allowed a closer visual examination of the rear aspect of the engine and the engine bay generally. There are witness marks showing that oil had been running down the back of the engine casing, and dropping down onto the lower engine sub-frame.






When advised of this by e.mail customer replied as follows:-
“the oil from the temp sensor was from when i fitted it the tape i put on wasn't sufficient, i have read and re-read the issues with putting tape on so i drove the car to my mates house and checked the temp sensor and see it was leaking, i dried most of this up with a cloth, and i then took off and re applied the tape to the sensor and fitted the other sensor's at the same time,”


It is clear with regard to this statement, that not only had there been an initial, customer generated oil leak. From the customer comments, it appears that this was noted, and that a clean up and “fix” was carried out.

From the oil pooling evident on the block casings at point of inspection though, it is apparent that the attempted customer fix had not worked, and that an oil leak was still present, a matter that had clearly been over-looked.


Disassembly of engine

With removal and inspection of the induction manifold and Turbocharger, there were no issues discovered where there had been any kind of oil leak, attention was then focussed upon the area of the Oil temperature sensor leak with better access now possible.
Inspection of the tape used by the customer to attempt to seal the threads reveals that a yellow PVC (electrical insulation tape) has been incorrectly used as a thread seal medium.


This tape is completely unsuitable for this application and it is no surprise that it has been unable to hold back oil pressure which during running conditions is routinely over 5.5 Bar (79 PSI) and as high as circa 7.5 Bar(108 PSI), combined with lower viscosity at higher temperature (likely in the region of 100 degrees C, (making the oil thinner). It comes as no surprise that either one or the other of the affected threads were leaking. Furthermore, the adhesive used in electrical insulation tape is NOT oil resistant, and would be broken down by the oil.


The thread form of the oil temperature sensor (1/8 NPT), is such that by design, it will seal adequately on its own (tapered) threads. While the application of a suitable thread seal tape is unnecessary in this instance, the use of a correct (PTFE) type thread tape is unlikely to have had any detrimental affect on that type of tapered thread.


Indeed, one of the defining characteristics of PTFE (Polytetrafluoroethylene) tape, is how good it is at defeating friction.The use of PTFE tape in tapered threads performs a lubricating function, which more easily allows the threads to be screwed together, to the point of deformation, which is what creates the majority, if not all, of the seal.

Area 52 Autosport

PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) Is a thermoplastic Polymer. PVC tape being designed specifically to resist the flow of electrical current , without passing current through itself.
A thermoplastic is a plastic that melts to a liquid when heated and freezes to a brittle, very glassy state when cooled sufficiently. Evidence of this process and fragmentation is shown in the photographs taken during engine inspection.


As such, PVC tape is highly entirely unsuitable for the sealing of pipe or indeed any type of threaded connectors, carrying hot oil or otherwise.


Removal of both threaded interfaces, results in PVC tape being left within the threads of the adapter and block, it is clear in this instance, that this tape has deteriorated, and fragmented into multiple pieces within those threads, clearly having become hardened and brittle.



Heads


The heads have been inspected, and there is no sign of valve stem oil seal leakage present, any such leakage would have introduced oil into the combustion chamber, and its presence at even a small percentage of the indicated oil consumption reported by the customer, would have generated plumes of dense smoke from the exhaust, the customer reports no visual indications of oil being burned from the exhaust, or the combustion chambers was evident, our findings support this, with no evidence of oil burnt or otherwise in the Turbocharger, or exhaust system. With the customer reporting:-

“ the car doesnt smoke and prior to this its always run fine,”



Engine Block


Disassembly of the engine block was undertaken, and all elements of the build were analysed. The analysis shows no signs of any kind of procedural, assembly or build error. All tolerances, clearances alignment and wear sensitive components have all been measured and remain well within tolerances.


All engine seals and gaskets were inspected and photographed during dis-assembly and there were no leaks evident throughout.
The crank and big end bearings however are excessively worn.


During disassembly of the case halves and subsequent removal of the main and big end bearing shells, numerous small fragments of yellow plastic insulation tape were present, with one particular piece of this tape being lodged behind and blocking the No.5 Main bearing (and as a consequence the feed to No.4 Big End Bearing) that individual piece of debris was circa 35mm long.



Damage/Cause

All 4 big end bearings are worn excessively out of tolerance, with a reduced amount of resultant damage to the main bearings. The main bearings do show signs of wear, and while still within tolerance, we would not re-use them as a matter of course when re-assembling this (or any) engine in similar circumstances.

The crank big end journals are worn beyond the state where we would consider making an engineering repair to the crankshaft. The.damage is as a result of running the engine with an insufficient engine oil level being maintained.


Overview/Summary Conclusions


The history of this vehicle is that it was initially ran in by ourselves, and then driven for a distance of circa 1,000 miles.
During this time, the car had no oil leaks and did not show any kind of excessive oil consumption symptoms, nor did it smoke measurably at any point throughout our tenure with the car.


We received no prior indication of any such excessive oil leak at any point prior to the failure incident.
The facts and evidence point towards the fact that while fitting a set of aftermarket Defi gauges, an oil leak has been introduced, identified by the customer and a repair attempt made.


The repair attempt was incorrectly carried out but it would appear that further checks in this area could not have been adequately carried out, with oil pooling on the block being evident before dis-assembly.


Furthermore, it appears that (most likely) in an effort to fix the initial leak; or at some point thereafter that a quantity of fragmented PVC insulation tape debris has dropped down into the oil gallery and has been ingested into the lubrication system, finding its way down to the engine main bearings at least, with obvious likely oil restriction/lubrication consequences.


The nature and location of this leak we believe are the cause of the excessive oil “consumption/loss”, compounded by it’s physical location, it is likely that it would either only have leaked while driving the car, and probably only once up to temperature and the oil having thinned. This would in part go towards explaining why there were reportedly minimal signs of oil deposits below the car while parked?


With the leak being on the top of the engine, it would likely not have continued to leak unless being up to temperature and while the oil was hot.

Area 52 Autosport

Nobody here wishes you to be without your car Mark. We are willing to offer a 20% discount on the parts used, but we don’t discount labour charges even for trade customers.


If you wish to discuss this further, please feel free to contact either myself or Jase by telephone. (0115) 985 9555.
If you would like our findings to be re-assessed by a qualified independent motor engineer, please advise us accordingly.


Any costs in commissioning such a third party investigation to be apportioned accordingly upon receipt of any subsequent engineers report if required.







Mike Tuckwood

The only thing we've left out from the report is the reg. No. and the rectification costs quote.

Tidgy

sounds fairly clear cut

jd5217

thanks for that, makes interesting reading.


hint to all who tinker with their engines. DO NOT USE INSULATION TAPE AS A SEALANT!!!!!!!!

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Silicone sealant is also bad

jd5217

from personal experience?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Thankfully not

jd5217

so are we waiting for the apology now?

MarkO

Don't be silly. Everyone knows that even back in the days of Scoobysport and Greg from BPM, no customer will ever apologise for nearly destroying a business through their own incompetence.

jd5217

Ghetto Dude3

i have to say, spending 20k on work and then using cheap electricians tape on a job as a bodge, is complete and utter madness.


not convinced on the breather filters getting fitted without a catch can, its ok for people who regulary take them off to check they are not blocked, but joe public cant be chewed on with checking them once a week to see if they are oily and clogged up from the inside.

i will give this thread 3 more pages before its locked

catons scooby

mike i think above your getting side tracted,

i wans't shown around the car when i picked it up, full stop, the only pictures you sent was because the build took 6months and i wanted to see the car,

do not acuse me of lying, i did not make this up, you did not appologise once for the state of the car when i recieved it back, the response was, the mot never picked it up so therefor it was already there, well if so why is the front indicator white, its an instant fail...
the alternator bolt had sheered off on the way home, and the belt was slipping for the last 10miles of the journey,

i have recieved photos, none of them are of the strip down as mike did not carry the strip down himself, could i just ask why you never?

you strongly recommended me to stay away why you carried out the strip saying YOU would take photos of it, however you haven't,

im confused, i asked you a while ago, WHO built the engine itself, your reply was YOU, jase and mark, and it was done 'in house' now hoever you sent the engine elsewhere to get it striped down?..

i don't see where or why i have to appologise,
yes you offered an easy way out of this, which was to take apart the gearbox, turbo engine, and settle for a 'cheaper' build, maybe i should have stayed with my original quote of 14k for 400bhp?

catons scooby

i simply couldn't afford to pay someone to do the job, i have learnt from this mistake, and yes its a mistake,

im still yet to see why in 40 miles i lost 4 ltrs of oil with out a trace, the oil would be everywhere yes?, well i only see it in the immediate area of the sensor, which as stated had leaked before i tried to re-tape it, i still lost 1 1/2 to 2 litres before i touched the car????

jd5217

this is going round & around.

catons scooby

beause some questions are being ignored!

jd5217

they might be ignored, however from what i can see is that you fitting insulating tape is a major issue.

catons scooby

yes i know, but from alot of people views the oil consumption before hand was a problem,

jd5217

it may have been an issue, but you "tinkering" has screwed up any chance you had of saving face!

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Oil consumption is relative.

My car would consume 1 litre of oil in 40 miles on the std engine.



That may Sound shocking but if I told you that was on a track then you would expect oil consumption to be higher. Did you really totter around for 3 weeks in the car worrying about speed cameras ?

I know what I was like when I was in my early twenties given a performance car...

bighead

iTrader: (1)

really...... a newly builts engine "should" not use any oil at all imho

catons scooby

anyway im off now got to pack for my holiday,
yippee,
lol,

thanks again to everyone on here and mike, no hard feelings mate,